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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I'm telling you guys the sky is falling for Roman because there's no Bruce Miller in the offense. Harbaugh says it's a "huge" loss. In today's NFL very few teams would say their FB is irreplaceable. And if he is, then (1) you should have a prepared back-up and (2) start thinking about an effective game plan without him.

Sorry gents but each game that goes by, I lose more faith in this coaching staff on OFFENSE.

Me too. I had predicted in my "Predict the 53" coming into the season that Jason Schepler would make the team for this very reason. I said losing Miller would be like most WCO or Spread offenses losing their #1 TE or #2 or #3 WR. He's THAT valuable to this team...the man does everything. He's like the Ahmad Brooks of offense. He was getting pounded all year (in the passing game ironically) and had no backup but we kept going to him more and more and more. Of course, we never sub'd him out either. When we brought in Owen, I was excited b/c we finally had a FB we could develop "just in case." Oops. And now it sounds like Owen may not even want to sign with us? Roman just lost the best FB in the game and his #3 receiver. This should get real interesting now.

Means more PT for Dixon and/or Wilhoite as well as a combination of more 3-WR sets, which in turn, opens the door for more time for Patton.
Originally posted by iLL49er:
if NCommand has figured out the "AR OFFENSE' as he likes to call it...u don't think every NFL d-cord that has played us has figured this out???? and if they have...they'd know by now who the AR is on various alignments and they could completely shut our passing game down easily

but that hasn't happened...why? because your assumption of this AR OFFENSE is inaccurate

Actually it HAS. Good DC's had taken away Boldin and VD eariler in the year and then we were screwed...we even had to lean on Gore for 5 or 6 straight games while we continue to pass well under 175 yards a game. What's making it harder to defend us now is that we have too many weapons to hone in on. It could be VD or Boldin...but now, there is also Manningham and Crabtree and there is always Frank Gore. Most DC's do not have the personnel to stop us (esp. now). They may be able to be physical and double up Boldin and VD (like they did earlier in the year) but not now b/c of Crabtree and Manningham. Someone is going to be open 1on1 ala VD's long TD (and near miss of another). How many defenses can stop our running game and this many weapons in the passing game? Seattle had the best chance...

PS: And while this team passing concept (AR) has been the foundation for the past two seasons, I am seeing more and more PS plays and checks/audibles at the LOS from CK. I believe that while this passing game is in line with HaRoMan's "philosophy" it doesn't mean they aren't trying to expand upon it as CK and the offense grow/develop together (this is my hope anyhow). But I'm also prepared for it being what it is too. Even said, it can STILL work. It just puts a heavy focus on the AR winning his 1on1 battles the majority of the time and the non-AR's executing their part of the play. After that, it's ad lib and obviously, we're getting better at that...3 of the 4 TD's have all been on ad libs.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 17, 2013 at 7:38 AM ]
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Means more PT for Dixon and/or Wilhoite as well as a combination of more 3-WR sets, which in turn, opens the door for more time for Patton.

Dixon/Wilhoite is scary...not so much in the route running/catching but the blocking. Miller is second to none there. I like more 3 WR's. Knowing Roman though, he likes to keep everything tight and packed in between the tackles. So we may see even more 22 personnel with VD & Celek (maybe McDonald if activated) and both Gore and Hunter/James in the backfield. Gore has much success in the I-formation as well. I'm very curious to see what Roman does here. He only three 2 passes to Manningham all game long (he was hardly in the game). So I do wonder if we'll use more Patton now. Then again, the trak record is not to play the young guys at all: Lemonier, McDonald, Patton, etc.
Blocking is an underrated skill...it's not just attitude, but leverage, balance, and vision. Dixon hasn't shown this ability to any extent but perhaps he can make a break through on this as he has on his running. Miller has been a real find...they need to tweak the offense without him.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Please don't wish him on my alma mater, the HORNS. Speaking of which, after the Mack Brown announcement that he would retire after Alamo bowl, there has been nothing, NADA, from the UT alumni folks. I would take that to mean either one of the hotshot collegiate coaches in bowl games, not named Saban, or a hi profile, successful NFL coach, but that one just doesn't seem to ring true.

Saban's extension pushed him over $5mil/yr, and word is UT is willing to pay Saban double that(somewhere in the $10-12 mil range). Wonder what NFL coaches are thinking about that? If you are on top of your game, your team is right there for the playoffs, it would be really hard for me to assume a great interest by our HC. But one never knows what a dumptruck full of money can do to one's thought processes. I have an extremely hard time imagining JH doing something like that but, then again, none of us know him personally, nor where his priorities lie. My guess he would like to be to be the best in the best...the NFL. I sure am anxious for the NFL season to come and go and to see that we still have our HC.

In the meantime, winning the SB wouldn't be so bad either. As for roman, man I wish some Pac 12 team offers him a job.

Ah so familiar with Austin? :) I just moved from San Antonio to Chicago. I'm in WINTERSHOCK! LOL
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Ah so familiar with Austin? :) I just moved from San Antonio to Chicago. I'm in WINTERSHOCK! LOL

Ha, I moved out to Chicago back in June. It's so cold. Lol
Originally posted by NCommand:
Yes, the full game was on locally! So, here is the breakdown for you of the AR1, 2, Pro Style (PS) and Ad lib passing plays. There were several plays where CK audibled but the AR/PS broke down and he scrambled instead (no pass) and I won't cover those; just the plays where CK actually passed the ball. I also saw this continued trend of blocking first and/or delayed flare outs by all running backs as outlets (love this BTW); they continue to be wide open as well (like in the Hawks game). I saw even more PS plays (some wiped out by delay-of-game penalties or ad lib scrambles by CK). They are very easy to see...any time we go 4 WR's (even if VD is one of them), it's always a PS passing play where CK scans the field and chooses his best option. I continue to see lots of roll-rights by CK and it seems on many of them, CK is running backwards trying to make a play. Gore and others blocked as well as they could on that edge but it appeared the Bucs were all over this play with 2 or 3 guys chasing CK in the backfield on the regular. We didn't take advantage of this (or adjust). I thought we got a couple sacks on poor play designs as well (and execution by the OL). CK and the ad lib receivers really saved so many passing plays today coupled with good DC's coaching of rushing CK backwards all day long (on the scrambles). It seemed like CK had more audibles this game esp. when the Bucs came up to blitz (encouraging).

BTW: It's very easy to determine who the AR is in the play design given CK's head angle/body positioning IMHO.



First Half
1Q:
AR1 @ 13:19 Crabtree @ X (wide left) position, VD off the LOS in the Y (right slot, usually) and Boldin @ the Z (wide right) position. Celek seams up field on the left side of our LT. All 3 run go-routes clearing out VD underneath from right to left behind the DL; hit instantly by CK for 5 yards. Gore flared out late to the right sideline as a outlet.
Ad lib @ 8:41 22 personnel and only Boldin @ the Z position. VD runs a go, corner (of the EZ route, I believe), Boldin runs a go, stop under him and Miller is the AR1 here and flares out under both. CK doesn't pull the trigger right away on a roll-right (for some reason) so naturally, it becomes an ad lib play. He continues his scramble right and eventually, hits Miller for a first down on the right sideline who adjusted well to CK's scramble/ad lib pass. First down on a 3rd down conversion inside the RZ. Boldin would have been the better option here but Miller was the AR.
Ad lib @ 7:15 Boldin @ X position, VD stayed in to block from the Y and Crabtree @ the Z position. It looked like the design was to hit Crabtree right away as the AR1. It was a fake pitch to James who runs left (to isolate Crabtree) while CK rolls right agian. Again, CK doesn't hit him right away (not sure why he's hesitating so much as he too was open) so CK and Crabtree ad lib and get the TD anyhow. It's a terrible design IMHO b/c Miller also ran through the line in the middle while CK instantly starting rolling right...didn't fool anyone for even a second. That said, Crabtree had his man beat (we rely heavily on individual matchups). If Roman was smart, he probably could have run this same play (minus the fake toss left)...getting the D flowing to the right and then passing to James (even a pitch if the DE doesn't come up field) in that flat while Boldin did what he did...slants in and picks off/blocks (i.e. seals the edge) out the defender(s). James was wide open. Smart, safe play on 1st down inside the 10.
AR1 @ 4:57 Boldin @ X position, Celek off the LOS in the Y and Crabtree @ the Z position. This, by far, is our most common AR1 play. Crabtree runs a standard go route and Celek runs a hook underneath him along the sidelines for 9.
AR1 @ 4:23 Crabtree @ X position, Boldin in the left Y and Celek out @ the Z position. VD lines up on the right side of the OL. All 3 run our standard go and VD runs his routes across the formation but 2 yards short of the first down. It became an AR2 as the design was to hit VD in stride across the formation and outrun the LB/S while Crabtree blocks out his DB clearing the left sideline/edge for VD. Crabtree did his part but the S made the tackle early on VD.

2Q:
AR1/Ad lib @ 15:00 Boldin @ X position, VD bunched with him at the left Y and Crabtree @ the Z position. It was a fake handoff to Hunter left (drawing attention to the left side) while CK rolls right to hit the only AR1 on that side (Crabtree). But the Bucs blew it up as Miller didn't get to the DE fast enough to block the edge and CK passes from 15 yards behind the LOS on the run to Crabtree who sees the scramble, comes back along the sidelines for 11 and a first down. It was basically a 30 yard sideways pass on the run. Crazy!
AR1 @ 10:57 Crabtree @ X position, VD on the LOS to the right and Boldin @ the Z position. FINALLY, we use the RB/FB as an AR1. Both Wr's run their standard go route, VD takes off the line on a go taking 2 defenders at first while Miller runs the same pattern on his coat tails but then breaks off the route, plants inside, turns, is hit with the ball instantly and turns up field for 5. This is a play we could murder aggressive/good defenses with (i.e. Seattle last game); this is a play we should use Hunter/James on the most. Now we're in 2nd and 5 and the playbook is open.
PS @ 9:02 5 WR set! Celek @ X position, Boldin to his right and VD stayed in the left slot (Y) while we had Gore in the right slot (Y) and Crabtree @ the Z position. Boldin and VD run go's and it's a quick toss to Celek for 11 as he was given a big cushion by his DB d/t the respect to Boldin/VD. Smart play! This could have been an AR1 design but with this many WR's, it's usually by design to give CK some multiple options and let him choose. Unfortunately, illegal formation by AD.
Ad lib @ 8:31 Crabtree @ X position, Boldin next to him from the left slot (Y) and VD on the LOS to the right with Celek in the Z position just back off the LOS next to him. I believe the AR1 was supposed to be VD who runs a seam deep left route. Crabtree runs out two yards and stops, Boldin runs a slow go route down the sideline and VD blasts off the LOS. CK has to scramble and ad lib a bit but still gets a great throw off to VD that should have been a TD (later it was). I think this was a design to take a shots to VD today.
PS @ 8:21 Boldin @ X position, Celek to his right wide, VD in the slot (Y) and Manningham @ the Z position. Both Celek and VD run go's and Boldin cuts off his route outside and runs across the formation. CK is forced to scramble left on 3rd and 15 but has enough to pass across his body and hit Boldin short who then breaks a tackles and runs to the right side of the field and picks up the first down; good down field blocking by Gore and Manningham.
AR1 @ 7:41 Crabtree @ X position, Celek in the left slot (Y) and Crabtree @ the Z position. VD runs a seam from the right side of the OT and Miller delays and flares out underneath Crabtree/Celek's go routes but CK badly misses his short route.
AR1 @ 3:03 Crabtree @ X position (in slight motion) and Boldin to his right in the slot (Y). VD runs a go from the right side of the OT, Miller runs behind Boldin's deep go while Crabtree breaks his go to the sideline and CK hits him in stride. Boldin's route (go-left) took both Goldon and made Revis hesitate on Crabtree. Nice design. Miller technically took two defenders on this one freeing up Crabtree in the drop-in pass. The previous flare out to Miller may have set up this pass.
AR1 @ 2:04 Crabtree @ X position, Boldin to his right in the slot (Y) and VD @ the Z position. I love this design. Celek from the right side of the RT, runs a straight go towards the right sideline taking a defenser while VD slants inside and is hit in stride by CK in the middle of the field just to the right has mark and turns up field for 13.
AR1 @ 1:56 Boldin @ X position. VD is off the back hip of Celek who is lined up on the LOS next to the RT. Boldin runs somwhat of a slant but VD BLOWS off the LOS. It's him all the way. This time CK hits him in stride deep for the TD. First half over and we're up 17-0 at this juncture.

I am not going to do the second half...unless requested.

dtg_9er, this is for your reference as requested...

It was questioned how this information was built without the All 22 film:

I recorded the game as it was televised/recorded/DVR. Our route running concepts are VERY simple; mostly go's (decoys/clearing out space underneath for AR's). The All 22 just validates this.

Also, all you need to do is focus on who the receiver was and work backwards.
Step 1. Ignore: the personnel groupings, who lines up where, their routes, defensive alignments, etc.). Focus on who caught the ball only.
Step 2. Rewind and watch CK's head angle and body positioning (is he looking at this AR all the way)?
Step 3. Rewind again. Now watch the non-AR's to see what part they played in getting that receiver open.
Step 4. Fill in the details and results.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 17, 2013 at 7:54 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I'm telling you guys the sky is falling for Roman because there's no Bruce Miller in the offense. Harbaugh says it's a "huge" loss. In today's NFL very few teams would say their FB is irreplaceable. And if he is, then (1) you should have a prepared back-up and (2) start thinking about an effective game plan without him.

Sorry gents but each game that goes by, I lose more faith in this coaching staff on OFFENSE.

Me too. I had predicted in my "Predict the 53" coming into the season that Jason Schepler would make the team for this very reason. I said losing Miller would be like most WCO or Spread offenses losing their #1 TE or #2 or #3 WR. He's THAT valuable to this team...the man does everything. He's like the Ahmad Brooks of offense. He was getting pounded all year (in the passing game ironically) and had no backup but we kept going to him more and more and more. Of course, we never sub'd him out either. When we brought in Owen, I was excited b/c we finally had a FB we could develop "just in case." Oops. And now it sounds like Owen may not even want to sign with us? Roman just lost the best FB in the game and his #3 receiver. This should get real interesting now.

Interesting or morbid....

I guess I just don't understand not having a back-up for this position already on the team. It's really a head scratcher (and I said this last year when he was hurt). What concerns me the most about the coaching staff on offense is it appears they don't learn from their mistakes, or even learn from their success. It's not just plays - it's EVERYTHING; philosophy, personnel, play design, etc. If blocking is potentially an issue, then running when there are 9 guys in the box will be even more challenging than it's ever been and it's not too late for the 49ers to drop out of the 6th seed. We have consecutive must-win/trap-game(s) coming up and I hate to be a skeptic.
  • Antix
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 4,239
I find people assuming more 3 wr sets and stuff like this kinda intetesting given who we all know our OC is.

This is the OC that consistently runs this offense into walls and uses the same three options in the passing game. How you can expect Miller's injury to be a "blessing in disguise" is beyond me. He'll probably try to do the same crap on offense with Dixon on offense despite the fact he can't block as well. We're probably gonna run the exact same offense but be nowhere near as effective because Roman doesn't adjust.

Kap will probably run more out of necessity but there is no way I'm expecting the loss of Miller to make our offense better. We'll either be forced to do things our OC sucks at (calling a decent passing game) or continue to do the same crap with less effectiveness. Even Kap talked bout how important Miller was because he's a "swiss army knife". I haven't seen us preparing a backup "swiss army knife" and I doubt we'll find one on the fly because of who we have running our offense.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Interesting or morbid....

I guess I just don't understand not having a back-up for this position already on the team. It's really a head scratcher (and I said this last year when he was hurt). What concerns me the most about the coaching staff on offense is it appears they don't learn from their mistakes, or even learn from their success. It's not just plays - it's EVERYTHING; philosophy, personnel, play design, etc. If blocking is potentially an issue, then running when there are 9 guys in the box will be even more challenging than it's ever been and it's not too late for the 49ers to drop out of the 6th seed. We have consecutive must-win/trap-game(s) coming up and I hate to be a skeptic.

It's scary...with all the excuses of personnel thrown out the window, we're still barely throwing for 200 yards and last game VD had a huge bomb to help raise that number (rare for us). That's fine if we're running effectively and eating up the clock on purpose but let's be real here, CK and Miller, Crabtree, Boldin and VD had to make insane plays just to be "serviceable." Like the Seattle game, we should have dominated, finished and put them to bed early. Yet here we are...only one AR1 design passing play for a RB/FB, McDonald is inactive, we leaned pretty heavily on Celek and Miller, had only 1 catch for Manningham and our top receiver had 5 receptions while Miller had 4. Not exactly a "dynamic offense." We should be tunning up right now for the run and putting the offense together.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Blocking is an underrated skill...it's not just attitude, but leverage, balance, and vision. Dixon hasn't shown this ability to any extent but perhaps he can make a break through on this as he has on his running. Miller has been a real find...they need to tweak the offense without him.

I don't think Dixon is as bad a blocker as people seem to think he is. I'm not that worried because he was fine against a strong Tampa front, AND I have been impressed with his blocking on special teams. If he can transfer that ability to FB, we'll be OK. No, not on the level of Miller, but good enough to mitigate the damage.

My guess is we see a combination of Celek and Dixon being used in rotation to fill Miller's spot. I'm interested in seeing if they step up and get it done.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Dec 17, 2013 at 8:06 AM ]
  • Buchy
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  • Posts: 770
The loss of Miller is a real blow to the power running game, although we've been getting some good success with draw plays from 2TE/2WR and 3WR sets, we may end up with mroe of that.
Originally posted by Antix:
I find people assuming more 3 wr sets and stuff like this kinda intetesting given who we all know our OC is.

This is the OC that consistently runs this offense into walls and uses the same three options in the passing game. How you can expect Miller's injury to be a "blessing in disguise" is beyond me. He'll probably try to do the same crap on offense with Dixon on offense despite the fact he can't block as well. We're probably gonna run the exact same offense but be nowhere near as effective because Roman doesn't adjust.

Kap will probably run more out of necessity but there is no way I'm expecting the loss of Miller to make our offense better. We'll either be forced to do things our OC sucks at (calling a decent passing game) or continue to do the same crap with less effectiveness. Even Kap talked bout how important Miller was because he's a "swiss army knife". I haven't seen us preparing a backup "swiss army knife" and I doubt we'll find one on the fly because of who we have running our offense.

You are 100% correct! This is the fundamental flaw with most of our fans...they don't look at who our coaches are, their well-documented philosophy, the common patterns/trends with the same personnel (or two totally different QB's), how we use our personnel, etc.

We had plenty of chances to develop a backup who could also contribute on ST's from Jason Schepler, MarQueis Gray to Owen Marecic and even Chris Harper.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Blocking is an underrated skill...it's not just attitude, but leverage, balance, and vision. Dixon hasn't shown this ability to any extent but perhaps he can make a break through on this as he has on his running. Miller has been a real find...they need to tweak the offense without him.

I don't think Dixon is as bad a blocker as people seem to think he is. I'm not that worried because he was fine against a strong Tampa front, AND I have been impressed with his blocking on special teams. If he can transfer that ability to FB, we'll be OK. No, not on the level of Miller, but good enough to mitigate the damage.

My guess is we see a combination of Celek and Dixon being used in rotation to fill Miller's spot. I'm interested in seeing if they step up and get it done.

It's a positive outook and much appreciated. I'm more worried about Dixon KNOWING the plays and knowing his full blocking assignment and his stamina. Miller plays a ton of snaps. If Dixon plays this many snaps, is he going to play ST as well? Conditioning could be a factor but like you, I'm curious to see how we adjust.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Actually it HAS. Good DC's had taken away Boldin and VD eariler in the year and then we were screwed...we even had to lean on Gore for 5 or 6 straight games while we continue to pass well under 175 yards a game. What's making it harder to defend us now is that we have too many weapons to hone in on. It could be VD or Boldin...but now, there is also Manningham and Crabtree and there is always Frank Gore. Most DC's do not have the personnel to stop us (esp. now). They may be able to be physical and double up Boldin and VD (like they did earlier in the year) but not now b/c of Crabtree and Manningham. Someone is going to be open 1on1 ala VD's long TD (and near miss of another). How many defenses can stop our running game and this many weapons in the passing game? Seattle had the best chance...

PS: And while this team passing concept (AR) has been the foundation for the past two seasons, I am seeing more and more PS plays and checks/audibles at the LOS from CK. I believe that while this passing game is in line with HaRoMan's "philosophy" it doesn't mean they aren't trying to expand upon it as CK and the offense grow/develop together (this is my hope anyhow). But I'm also prepared for it being what it is too. Even said, it can STILL work. It just puts a heavy focus on the AR winning his 1on1 battles the majority of the time and the non-AR's executing their part of the play. After that, it's ad lib and obviously, we're getting better at that...3 of the 4 TD's have all been on ad libs.

NC...Colin in on game 24, it takes 30 they say b4 it all clicks for a QB..and the signs of it clicking are there in the last 3 weeks..he's progressed significantly. i see him moving the defense w/ his eyes and making what trent dildo would call "graduate level" plays

do you disagree?