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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Guys, I took the chance to watch NFL Replay today to gauge our AR passing game in the first half; not sure if they aired every single pass but this was a great sample, nonetheless.

PS = Pro Style route tree. See previous pages for definition of AR1 or AR2 passing plays and Ad lib (is self-explanatory)

[Type of Passing Play = PS, AR1, AR2 or Ad lib] --- [Time in Seconds] ----------------------------------------------------- [Description] -------- [Results]

1Q:
· AR2 <2 VD sprints a Go-route, Boldin draws defender towards the LOS, picks the LB and CK hits Miller (sprinting out of the backfield) on the edge/flat where Boldin was. 7 yard gain.
· AR1 <3 Straight curl-left with Boldin, 9 yard gain.
AR1 @3 Straight sideline route to Crabtree (acrobatic catch). 15 yard gain
· AR1 >3 VD was the AR1 off the LOS towards the EZ, CK didn't pull the trigger, rolled left, threw it away. Miller only receiver on that side and had his back turned to CK blocking (held too).
· AR1 @3 CK in Q formation (i.e. shot gun), fakes handoff, immediately rolls right hitting Crabtree (solo receiver) on the sidelines for 12 yards but ruled incomplete. Boldin was within 15 yards, same line, in the middle of the field. To me, it was Crabtree all the way making this an AR1.
· PS @ 3 4 WR set (from bottom to top of screen) VD and Crabtree & Boldin and Manningham. CK in shotgun, scans right, then left, hits Manningham in triple coverage. Incomplete. He even had Gore running a route wide open right behind Manningham.

2Q:
· PS @ 3 3 WR set (from bottom to top of screen) Manningham and VD, Boldin & Crabtree. CK in shotgun, scans right and comes back to Manningham and incomplete. VD may have been the better deeper route coming across the formation or Hunter who also flared out, wide open with only one LB within 7 yards of him…gone!
· AR2 <3 2 WR set (from bottom to top of screen) Boldin & VD. VD clears out deep and Boldin drops right in the space for a 20 yard completion. Note: We were flaring the RB's out much more with Gore, Hunter and Miller (as real receiving options). And they were WIDE open esp. when they delayed their routes behind the DL after the WR's and TE"s cleared everything out
· Ad lib @ 3. I want to highlight this one @ the 8:12 mark b/c it looked like an AR1 to VD. Sherman is on him and is literally, standing there on the LOS ready to rush CK leaving VD wide open. Instead of tossing a quick pass to VD in the flat over/past Sherman from shotgun, he steps up and avoids the sack and sails it to Crabtree down the other sideline incomplete (s/h/b P.I.). But an experience QB knows you throw where the blitzer came from esp. if he is already the AR1. This means he IS probably looking down at the DL or rushers at times vs. keeping composure and stepping into it. That's coaching too.
· AR1 · AR1 < 3 2 WR set to the right, quick pass to Boldin in line for 10.
· AR2 @ 3 3 WR set, 2 left, 1 right. AR1 to Miller for 6. Boldin and VD cleared deep, opposite direction while CK fakes right before hitting an open Miller in the vacated area to the left coming out from the Q formation. Nice design as Miller was looking for it all the way. Gore wide open again as the check down in the middle of the field.
· Ad lib > 3 2 WR set (1 left, 1 right). It looked liked an AR1 to Crabtree to the left all the way, CK didn't pull the trigger, scrambles to the right, lobs it up to Boldin over Sherman for 27 yards.
· AR1 @ 3 CK and OL roll right, tosses back to VD for 12 (been waiting for this one all year!).
· AR2 >3 1 WR left. Boldin sprints from out wide across the formation while CK rolls to his original side in tandem with both VD and Miller in the EZ (shorter, deeper). Both covered, CK throws it away (no other options).
· AR2 @ 2 4 WR set (3 right, 1 left). Pass (too low) underneath to Crabtree while both Boldin & VD are already blocking for him. Offensive P.I. called. I'm OK with the call but the ball was almost in Crabtree's hands and Boldin was blocking well under 5 yards off the LOS. Hmmm.
· AR1

Summary: Almost all passes were @ or under 3 seconds (design), almost all were AR1 or AR2 calls with a couple successful ad lib plays run off those covered AR's mixed in with a couple PS's as well. CK ppears to have more control at the LOS to call which AR he wants. I liked many of the routes/designs and I especially liked how much we are flaring out the RB's as true receiving options now. These could be KILLER plays against any good defense with the added attention to VD, Manningham, Crabtree and Boldin out wide (usually to the sidelines and/or deeper routes). McDonald could make a living in this area as well even if he were to help in pass protection first and THEN flare out. CK showed some poor accuracy today, relies too much on Crabtree as the AR and also showed some mental lapses (INT and not pulling the trigger when the AR was open esp. on the blitz). Overall, it's still a predominant AR passing attack and it relies very heavily on the AR's winning their 1on1 battles (sometimes with a little help from their friends). Chemistry is clearly the key on the ad lib plays when the AR is covered or CK doesn't pull the trigger. I don't plan to do the second half as this was enough evidence for me.

Great work NCommand. I'm not sure they can pepper in PS with AR offense. It really is a different thought process. It's like passing training wheels.
Holy moly. Thanks for that post, NCommand. Great stuff!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Paste isn't copying over well...here are the last two plays:
• AR2 @ 2 4 WR set (3 right, 1 left). Pass (too low) underneath to Crabtree while both Boldin & VD are already blocking for him. Offensive P.I. called. I'm OK with the call but the ball was almost in Crabtree's hands and Boldin was blocking well under 5 yards off the LOS. Hmmm.
• AR1 <3 3 WR set (2 right, 1 left) VD starts on the right of the OT, rubs across the formation, CK hits him for a TD

Works better if you save it as a jpeg or gif and then download. Have to do this with spread sheets or it turns into mush.

Thanks for the post NC...a lot to consider and will be rewatching if I can find time. It's nice to have something like your run down while watching.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Guys, I took the chance to watch NFL Replay today to gauge our AR passing game in the first half; not sure if they aired every single pass but this was a great sample, nonetheless.

PS = Pro Style route tree. See previous pages for definition of AR1 or AR2 passing plays and Ad lib (is self-explanatory)

[Type of Passing Play = PS, AR1, AR2 or Ad lib] --- [Time in Seconds] ----------------------------------------------------- [Description] -------- [Results]

1Q:
· AR2 · AR1 AR1 @3 Straight sideline route to Crabtree (acrobatic catch). 15 yard gain
· AR1 >3 VD was the AR1 off the LOS towards the EZ, CK didn't pull the trigger, rolled left, threw it away. Miller only receiver on that side and had his back turned to CK blocking (held too).
· AR1 @3 CK in Q formation (i.e. shot gun), fakes handoff, immediately rolls right hitting Crabtree (solo receiver) on the sidelines for 12 yards but ruled incomplete. Boldin was within 15 yards, same line, in the middle of the field. To me, it was Crabtree all the way making this an AR1.
· PS @ 3 4 WR set (from bottom to top of screen) VD and Crabtree & Boldin and Manningham. CK in shotgun, scans right, then left, hits Manningham in triple coverage. Incomplete. He even had Gore running a route wide open right behind Manningham.
....
Summary: Almost all passes were @ or under 3 seconds (design), almost all were AR1 or AR2 calls with a couple successful ad lib plays run off those covered AR's mixed in with a couple PS's as well. CK ppears to have more control at the LOS to call which AR he wants. I liked many of the routes/designs and I especially liked how much we are flaring out the RB's as true receiving options now. These could be KILLER plays against any good defense with the added attention to VD, Manningham, Crabtree and Boldin out wide (usually to the sidelines and/or deeper routes). McDonald could make a living in this area as well even if he were to help in pass protection first and THEN flare out. CK showed some poor accuracy today, relies too much on Crabtree as the AR and also showed some mental lapses (INT and not pulling the trigger when the AR was open esp. on the blitz). Overall, it's still a predominant AR passing attack and it relies very heavily on the AR's winning their 1on1 battles (sometimes with a little help from their friends). Chemistry is clearly the key on the ad lib plays when the AR is covered or CK doesn't pull the trigger. I don't plan to do the second half as this was enough evidence for me.

Good stuff, NC. I'm kind of seeing different though. I'm not quite getting what the time to pull the trigger on a pass has to do with whether it is a college style one read play, or a pro style passing play. My take is that if Kap goes with his pre-snap primary read, the read he is making as the shifts are occurring at the LOS, the ball will come out fast. If his primary read is wrong, he will have to start his progressions. I'd like to go over some of the plays you referenced in your breakdown.

1Q:
· AR2 <2 VD sprints a Go-route, Boldin draws defender towards the LOS, picks the LB and CK hits Miller (sprinting out of the backfield) on the edge/flat where Boldin was. 7 yard gain. That's an AR play. Nice way to open up the game.
· AR1 - This play seems as though Kap is making a quick read once the blitz came. He saw the coverage and made the decision on where to go with the ball. PS
AR1 @3 Straight sideline route to Crabtree (acrobatic catch). 15 yard gain - Kap saw how the SEA DB was aligned (press man) and chose the matchup of Crabs vs Maxwell, instead of VD on a go route with a deep FS, instead of Boldin vs Sherman. PS
· AR1 >3 VD was the AR1 off the LOS towards the EZ, CK didn't pull the trigger, rolled left, threw it away. Miller only receiver on that side and had his back turned to CK blocking (held too). Boldin got caught up in garbage at the LOS and never got into his route. He finally breaks free, but that window passed. They were running a hi-lo concept. VD on the corner route, Boldin underneath on a crosser, Miller in the short flat. PS
· AR1 @3 CK in Q formation (i.e. shot gun), fakes handoff, immediately rolls right hitting Crabtree (solo receiver) on the sidelines for 12 yards but ruled incomplete. Boldin was within 15 yards, same line, in the middle of the field. To me, it was Crabtree all the way making this an AR1. There was immediate pressure right up the gut as Kap completes the playaction and had to roll right, cutting down half the field. There was a post-cross combination developing on the other side of the formation.
· PS @ 3 4 WR set (from bottom to top of screen) VD and Crabtree & Boldin and Manningham. CK in shotgun, scans right, then left, hits Manningham in triple coverage. Incomplete. He even had Gore running a route wide open right behind Manningham. I see an example of Kap recognizing his primary was covered and moving off to his next progression. Then showing a lot of confidence in his arm. PS


The underlined play
: Check out the cushion being given. It's a blitz and SEA CBs are playing over the top coverage. Any short route being run will do. Kap takes it, Boldin (top of screen) on an out route.





The bolded play: Sherman at the bottom, was given the right coverage call. He beats VD's fly route with over the top technique. Had Sherman been in press trail technique, this is a possible target if Kap chooses. He skips over Crabs who was in contact with the LB (perhaps an anticipation throw was available). Crabs had YAC potential as VD cleared the area. His next read is the CB's (blue) depth, since it's obvious to Kap that the CB is in zone (eyes on Kap). If the CB is deep, go to Gore. If the CB is too shallow, there's a lane to Ham. The CB is deep, but it's 3rd&6 and Kap is aggressive in looking for the conversion (the red marker can be seen). He tries to gun it into Ham who tried his best at finding the soft spot in the zone, bracketed. VD on a corner route is also in a bracket.






edit: ^^Just noticed you said this play was a PS play. Agreed.
[ Edited by thl408 on Dec 10, 2013 at 10:43 PM ]
wow, helluva job, NC, and the thing that is outstanding...er, standing out most...is the huge # of AR plays. Watching the game I didn't realize we had half that many. Man, what a waste to have 3 great receivers and Baldwin and vance, LMJ and hunter, and not to use 4,5, or 6 guys as potential targets every play, a la Drew brees, Peyton, and Tom Brady, just to mention a few. It just seems such a waste to use only 1 or 2 guys each play as targets, when Brees completed 11 passes to 11 different guys against us and I guarantee, they were NOt ARs. Oh, well, it is JH's team, and he is my coach. Still I wish he called offense differently.

Is this going to change to PS once kap learns to read Ds better and call plays better? Also that assumes he can find different receivers that are NOT ARs. Is this AR playcalling due to kap's limitations, or JHs philosophy?

I guess if kap can't find receivers well, then AR is a good fallback position. Is that what you see?
[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Dec 10, 2013 at 11:02 PM ]
Was curious to see how the 49ers went about attacking the SEA secondary. Here are the pass plays from the 1st half. The orange/yellow arrow is the targeted route (yellow = complete, orange = inc). Included are throws where a defensive penalty was called. Not shown are scrambles where Kap does not throw. The game situation is in the top left of each pic with the personnel grouping listed underneath.
22 = 2RB / 2TE /1WR
21 = 2RB / 1TE / 2 WR
11 = 1RB / 1TE / 3WR

1st Quarter


2nd Quarter

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's a product of running an AR passing game...running deep decoys, focusing on doing their part to help the AR, head turned down field blocking, etc. That said, once these receivers DO realize it's become ad lib, other than Boldin and sometimes, VD, the rest don't do a very good job coming back to CK/the ball and/or finding the soft spots in the defense. Lots and lots of go-routes; takes a while to come back. Plus most of the time these plays are coming back along the sidelines while CK is rolling to the right buying time. That gives defenders more time to flood that small area. But as to pasodoc9er's point, yes, whether it's a WCO, Spread or even the AR offense, there is no reason why we can't continue to drop in key targets into these soft spots and attack a quality defense and soften them up.


I think it's because Roman thinks that this is what the defense is giving him, therefore you have to run that style of offense.

Roman thinks, "Matchups are God". "If they play one deep safety, always run two deep routes." etc...

He is not an artist. He thinks purely logical. That is why our offense seems so robotic and without rhythm.
Originally posted by thl408:
Was curious to see how the 49ers went about attacking the SEA secondary. Here are the pass plays from the 1st half.

Very cool to see, thanks. Looks like mostly multi-route reads for Kaep, mixed with a designed single AR1 (#21) and single AR2 play (#19).

This is what I have been feeling we typically do in our offense... but admit, I haven't been reviewing as much as I used to.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Paste isn't copying over well...here are the last two plays:
• AR2 @ 2 4 WR set (3 right, 1 left). Pass (too low) underneath to Crabtree while both Boldin & VD are already blocking for him. Offensive P.I. called. I'm OK with the call but the ball was almost in Crabtree's hands and Boldin was blocking well under 5 yards off the LOS. Hmmm.
• AR1 <3 3 WR set (2 right, 1 left) VD starts on the right of the OT, rubs across the formation, CK hits him for a TD

Works better if you save it as a jpeg or gif and then download. Have to do this with spread sheets or it turns into mush.

Thanks for the post NC...a lot to consider and will be rewatching if I can find time. It's nice to have something like your run down while watching.

Oh good suggestion!

Yeah, please let me know what you think. The good thing about analyzing these passing plays is that it's easy to fast forward to JUST the passing plays, slow down, freeze, rewind, etc. It's not very time consuming.
Originally posted by thl408:
Good stuff, NC. I'm kind of seeing different though. I'm not quite getting what the time to pull the trigger on a pass has to do with whether it is a college style one read play, or a pro style passing play. My take is that if Kap goes with his pre-snap primary read, the read he is making as the shifts are occurring at the LOS, the ball will come out fast. If his primary read is wrong, he will have to start his progressions. I'd like to go over some of the plays you referenced in your breakdown.

I think we have a slight difference in opinion on this one key concept. If all passes are under 3 seconds, that is a good indication the AR has been pre-determined in the huddle (with, what appears to be a little more freedom for CK to change at the LOS based on his read). You call this AR the "primary read" and I call him the "Annointed Receiver." While it essentially is the exact same thing initially, the difference is after that...IMHO, there are no real 2nd or 3rd receiving options (i.e. no "progression reads") EXCEPT when the play is Pro-Style. Why? B/c the non-AR's are all playing their part in getting the AR the ball; they are doing their part in executing the "team passing play," whether that's running routes away from a vacated area for the AR, picking defenders off or even blocking for them pre-pass. It's a team passing game. It's essentially as simple as this for CK: 1) Choose the best AR passing play at the LOS; 2) Hit the AR in under 3 seconds and if covered or if you don't pull the trigger 3) It instantly becomes an ad lib play so make sure to scramble, buy time with your legs and either ad lib pass or run. Done.

The key in this team passing AR system is that everyone must execute their part (esp. the AR beating his man 1on1). If that AR is covered or CK doesn't pull the trigger, it THEN becomes an ad lib play where at that point, everyone is scrambling to make a play. In the AR offense, CK himself, is nothing more than an extension of the passing play called himself. There are no true progression reads where if the primary target is covered, look to the secondary, thrid and then check downs. We only see this when we run a true Pro-Stle (PS) passing play.

Now, IMHO, if it's a PS passing play as noted above (and I do believe we'll see more and more of these as CK grows his football IQ), we typically run 3 or 4 WR's out and even the TE and RB's are true receiving options. There "may" be a primary read but essentially, every route run could genuinely be a receiving option. That's the key difference vs. our AR team passing plays.

In PS, CK takes the snap in shot gun (usually) and his job is to scan the field and hit the most open man under 3 seconds. It appears when we run a PS play, it's more similar to a Spread passing play (left-to-right; vice versa) vs. a WCO (high-to-low with built in progressions). This is what you see with Brady, standing back there in shot gun for 8 seconds at a time, scanning, waiting to see who his best option is. And like I said, there "may" be a primary read here as well but it's not critical as ALL receivers are true receiving options. Someone like Brady, via his experience, would probably KNOW who has the best matchup and who will most likely win his battle but a primary receiver or even progressions are not critical here; the open man is. And the fact that there are multiple options and the entire field is being used, it makes it easier to sit back there with confidence. The WCO is different, as you know, as not only is every receiver on the field a real receiving option on every single play but the routes themselves are designed to open up at different times in sync with the QB's drops (3, 5, 7-step drops, etc.); not just the primary read.

While this AR "team passing" game can work with top notch talent (like we now have), it does put a ton of stress on the AR beating his man 1on1 the majority of the time and it also may be affecting CK and his growth of a QB as his football IQ may be getting capped off (plateauing). Until we start to incorporate more and more PS passing plays or even some WCO route trees, other than pre snap reads, there isn't much to "think about" as the AR has already been pre-determined...he just has to exceute it!

IMHO, this AR passing game CAN work with the personnel we have now and some of these schemes are great and can create some favorable matchups and I esp. like how we're using more and more of the RB's as real receiving options now for CK if the AR is bottled up. With all the added attention to Crabtree, VD, Boldin & Manningham and with the intermediate and deeper (outside) routes we tend to run, we could start REALLY exposing teams with the likes of Hunter, Gore, Miller, James and esp. McDonald in the short, middle, underneath areas of the field (esp. on delayed pass blocking routes).

Adding more and more Spread-like PS (or WCO) passing plays for CK and hitting these shorter targets if the AR is covered up instead of scambling to ad lib throw/run, coud be the next phase in his evolution/growth as a QB. HaRoMan could help CK with scheme (like how we currently use Miller as the AR, we could use the aforementioned [other] weapons as the AR's as well in this short area) and coaching (fundamentals; eyes) here as well. Teach him to stay in the pocket and if he can't hit his AR under 3 seconds, look down to your check-down options instantly for big, positive gains, esp. on first down. This will at least get him thinking about using the entire field and keep him clean/safe and will help open up the playbook on 2nd and 3rd downs (b/c we'll have made positive yards on first downs).

Go Niners!
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 11, 2013 at 10:46 AM ]
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by thl408:
Was curious to see how the 49ers went about attacking the SEA secondary. Here are the pass plays from the 1st half.

Very cool to see, thanks. Looks like mostly multi-route reads for Kaep, mixed with a designed single AR1 (#21) and single AR2 play (#19).

This is what I have been feeling we typically do in our offense... but admit, I haven't been reviewing as much as I used to.

Just the opposite actually but still can be effective even against a very good (and illegal) defense!
NCommand

While this AR "team passing" game can work with top notch talent (like we now have), it does put a ton of stress on the AR beating his man 1on1 the majority of the time and it also may be affecting CK and his growth of a QB as his football IQ may be getting capped off (plateauing). Until we start to incorporate more and more PS passing plays or even some WCO route trees, other than pre snap reads, there isn't much to "think about" as the AR has already been pre-determined...just exceute it!

Ah! The weakness of the AR Passing Offense...

Not only does it put stress on the AR beating his man 1-1, but it also requires a believable decoy. This is why I've dubbed it the Decoy-based Anointed Receiver Passing Offense. Why was it so dysfunctional early in the season after the Greenbay game? Because teams quickly figured out the only viable ARs were Davis and Boldin. Manningham isn't healthy enough to be an effective AR and never quite had the tools to beat guys in press coverage 1-1; he was more of a speedster. Now that Crabtree is back, of course his "presence" is being felt because defense MUST acknowledge he's a bona fide AR "option".

It's purely based on execution and not receiving options. AR "hardwires" the receiver in Kaps head and it simplifies the read. So Dilfer was correct in a sense when he said the AR offense was "remedial" to a degree. It is "training" offense. However if everyone doesn't execute perfectly, Kap scrambles and it becomes ad lib. I don't mind this at all, it's just that we have to teach our receivers how to break routes off when they notice the AR play has broken down.
Wow, that's a significant amount of AR sets. So what does this mean? Is this a reflection of HaRoman's ultra conservative mistake-free offensive philosophy? Or does this show that the coaches have little confidence in Kap going through multiple reads or reading defenses efficiently on his own (disturbing)? Which ever the case, do you guys feel that this could change and we could move on to a more PS offense as Kap mature and improves and we can get better weapons around him? I'd hate for this to continue, as I believe it hinders the development of the non ARs (Baldwin, McDonald) and ensures there's never any fluidity in the passing offense.
Originally posted by NeonNiner:
Wow, that's a significant amount of AR sets. So what does this mean? Is this a reflection of HaRoman's ultra conservative mistake-free offensive philosophy? Or does this show that the coaches have little confidence in Kap going through multiple reads or reading defenses efficiently on his own (disturbing)? Which ever the case, do you guys feel that this could change and we could move on to a more PS offense as Kap mature and improves and we can get better weapons around him? I'd hate for this to continue, as I believe it hinders the development of the non ARs (Baldwin, McDonald) and ensures there's never any fluidity in the passing offense.

I honestly think it is just how Roman's offense works. He likes to shift players around to get the best matchup and try to exploit that. I believe this is why it looks like Kap is a "one read" QB. The primary read is put in a position where he should be able to make a play against whatever the QB reads the defense to be. Roman's offense is all about the presnap read with very little coming after. I think Kap is being coached this way.

Even with Alex Smith under center we saw much of the same shifting, the same issues with first downs being unproductive, the hot reads effectively being eliminated, etc.
Originally posted by NeonNiner:
Wow, that's a significant amount of AR sets. So what does this mean? Is this a reflection of HaRoman's ultra conservative mistake-free offensive philosophy? Or does this show that the coaches have little confidence in Kap going through multiple reads or reading defenses efficiently on his own (disturbing)? Which ever the case, do you guys feel that this could change and we could move on to a more PS offense as Kap mature and improves and we can get better weapons around him? I'd hate for this to continue, as I believe it hinders the development of the non ARs (Baldwin, McDonald) and ensures there's never any fluidity in the passing offense.

Well, this is why I have always said this passing offense is grounded in a poor "philosophy" to begin with. It requires all parts of a chain to work and be strong together at once and after that, true chemistry between your QB and WR's in ad lib. It can still work. It can still be effective. In theory, it COULD involve others such as Patton, Manningham, Baldwin, McDonald, Hunter, James and Gore in the passing game BUT HaRoMan would need to call plays where the aforementioned are the AR's or CK is taught to hit these guys instantly if that AR is bottled up. It puts a LOT of pressure on Roman to scheme properly as well and at the right time. Essentially, it takes much of the responsibility off the QB and puts more (control) on the OC/Coaches; and that is WITH 6 different coaches contributing to play calling throughout the game and game plans. It's not a QB-centered passing game where HE is running the offense up and down the field. He is merely executing the play call IMHO. What we don't know is if this is just the beginning phase of the offense, the foundation, and from here, it will involve into a more PS (or WCO) passing attack where we see less decoy routes and more true receiving options on every play called. Like thl408 suggested, perhaps this passing attack has been scaled back d/t CK's developmental level. At the same token, we may need to brace ourselves for the fact that this just may BE our offense. Period. But even if it is, like I noted earlier, it can still work and be effective (obviously). But we're going to continue to see many of the same patterns/issues we are still concerned about (now, under 2 QB's). Roman and coaches will need to evolve themselves and become more proficient and experienced while CK and the receivers develop more and more chemistry.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 11, 2013 at 8:47 AM ]