The Michael Crabtree Thread

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I need that s**t for my knee.

You'll have to use a LOT. The FDA approves it only for children with rare growth issues and even then, injects it at high doses.

My recommendation? Fly to New Zealand!

Originally posted by NCommand:
I was joking around from day 1 in this thread regarding: Deer. Antler. Spray.

BUT, did anyone watch the 60 Minutes - Sports edition on Showtime? Wow!

They covered the most famous professional (alleged) client of Mitch Ross in, Ray Lewis en route to the Superbowl 4 months after his injury and the substance that IS banned by the NFL that is included in the spray/oral ingredients (called, IGF1). It's made in New Zealand but has been used by the Chinese for 2,000 years. It is known to speed up the growth of body tissue but particularly, bones and muscles. It's considered a "doping agent" (aka a growth hormone).

60 minutes confirmed text's between Lewis and his supplier and requested contact with Lewis but naturally, he declined. Hugh Jackson, coach for the Raiders, was also a big fan of these products (while with the Ravens - via video saying he recommended them to Lewis himself) and claimed he was a big believer in the new "chips." Alabama players on video too. And according to Mitch now, the Ravens starting SS Ihedigbo is the "new Ray Lewis" buying products for all of the Ravens (no comment from him either). I love that Mitch is going after Jerry Jones as well b/c he's an innovator. Now, why would he go after an NFL owner and continue to distribute these products knowing they contain a banned NFL substance? B/c the NFL does NOT test for IGF1. We'll just call it "Adderall."

Anyhow, why did I post this in the Crabtree thread? No reason...

"Things that make you go, hmmmm."

Meh. There's a big difference between IGF-1 that you inject and the garbage crap they sell as a supplement. Ray Lewis got better because he was likely on a regimen of HGH and other pharmaceuticals. This deer velvet antler stuff is pure nonsense propagated by hype and slick marketing. Basic science tells us that the stuff can't work, not that its unlikely to work, but it can't work, at least not in the manner claimed.


When you consume any type of protein, your body ends up breaking down those proteins into amino acids that the body then utilizes for its individual purposes. Testosterone, IGF-1, HGH, these are all hormones, but they are also proteins, taking any of them orally in their basic chemical state simply means that the body will end up cleaving them, breaking them apart and the intended purpose for their use will not be accomplished. In the case of testosterone, you need another compound bonded to the testosterone to protect it from being broken apart through first pass metabolism in the liver. This reason is why oral steroids are much more dangerous and have worse side effects than the injectable kind, the process that allows the oral steroids to survive the first pass through the liver also drastically increases the toxicity and side-effects, especially upon the liver.


Oral HGH and IGF-1 will be destroyed in the stomach, if you could take a pill containing HGH or IGF-1 and have it absorb properly, the big pharmaceutical companies would be all over that like a fat kid on a stack of flapjacks.



Ray Lewis recovered due to deer velvet antler extract the same way Mark McGwire bulked up thanks to creatine, with the difference being that creatine actually can boost athletic performance and is one of the most studied sports supplements in existence.


Even if you were to buy that by some miracle, IGF-1 just skipped the entire reality of the human digestive process, you're still screwed because studies show that a single bottle of the deer antler velvet contains a absolutely miniscule amount of actual IGF-1.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7533772

"In conclusion, 100 micrograms/g rhIGF-I, given twice daily, 1) has GH-like effects on whole body protein metabolism,"



So 100 micrograms twice daily of IGF-1....or 200 micrograms is the effective dose. How much does a bottle of IGF-1 supplement contain?

https://www.royalvelvetnow.com/index.php


About 3,000 and 5,000 nanograms. With about 60 servings per bottle, you're looking at getting 80 nanograms at best...or....0.08 micrograms per day, compared to an effective dose of 100 micrograms per day. Not even remotely close to a proper dose that would make any sort of difference. You'd have to take 40 whole bottles a day of the supplement to get an effective amount of IGF-1, if it even absorbed orally in the first place.


Studies have shown no hormonal response as a result of deer velvet antler extract supplementation.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669926

"There were no endocrine, red cell mass or VO2max changes in any group. These findings do not support an erythropoetic or aerobic ergogenic effect of deer antler velvet."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16286669

"It appears that 10 wk of EVA supplementation does not significantly improve rowing performance nor alter hormonal responses at rest or after acute exercise than training alone."



Its still enough for the NFL and the Olympics to ban it due to the association with illicit sports enhancement drugs but not enough to to do anything besides lessen the cash in your wallet.







All this deer velvet craze proves is that the placebo effect indeed is very strong.




With that said, I hope Crabtree was loading up on more HGH than Phil Heath.

put me down for some of it too then i still have something left in the tank

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Meh. There's a big difference between IGF-1 that you inject and the garbage crap they sell as a supplement. Ray Lewis got better because he was likely on a regimen of HGH and other pharmaceuticals. This deer velvet antler stuff is pure nonsense propagated by hype and slick marketing. Basic science tells us that the stuff can't work, not that its unlikely to work, but it can't work, at least not in the manner claimed.


When you consume any type of protein, your body ends up breaking down those proteins into amino acids that the body then utilizes for its individual purposes. Testosterone, IGF-1, HGH, these are all hormones, but they are also proteins, taking any of them orally in their basic chemical state simply means that the body will end up cleaving them, breaking them apart and the intended purpose for their use will not be accomplished. In the case of testosterone, you need another compound bonded to the testosterone to protect it from being broken apart through first pass metabolism in the liver. This reason is why oral steroids are much more dangerous and have worse side effects than the injectable kind, the process that allows the oral steroids to survive the first pass through the liver also drastically increases the toxicity and side-effects, especially upon the liver.


Oral HGH and IGF-1 will be destroyed in the stomach, if you could take a pill containing HGH or IGF-1 and have it absorb properly, the big pharmaceutical companies would be all over that like a fat kid on a stack of flapjacks.



Ray Lewis recovered due to deer velvet antler extract the same way Mark McGwire bulked up thanks to creatine, with the difference being that creatine actually can boost athletic performance and is one of the most studied sports supplements in existence.


Even if you were to buy that by some miracle, IGF-1 just skipped the entire reality of the human digestive process, you're still screwed because studies show that a single bottle of the deer antler velvet contains a absolutely miniscule amount of actual IGF-1.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7533772

"In conclusion, 100 micrograms/g rhIGF-I, given twice daily, 1) has GH-like effects on whole body protein metabolism,"



So 100 micrograms twice daily of IGF-1....or 200 micrograms is the effective dose. How much does a bottle of IGF-1 supplement contain?

https://www.royalvelvetnow.com/index.php


About 3,000 and 5,000 nanograms. With about 60 servings per bottle, you're looking at getting 80 nanograms at best...or....0.08 micrograms per day, compared to an effective dose of 100 micrograms per day. Not even remotely close to a proper dose that would make any sort of difference. You'd have to take 40 whole bottles a day of the supplement to get an effective amount of IGF-1, if it even absorbed orally in the first place.


Studies have shown no hormonal response as a result of deer velvet antler extract supplementation.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669926

"There were no endocrine, red cell mass or VO2max changes in any group. These findings do not support an erythropoetic or aerobic ergogenic effect of deer antler velvet."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16286669

"It appears that 10 wk of EVA supplementation does not significantly improve rowing performance nor alter hormonal responses at rest or after acute exercise than training alone."



Its still enough for the NFL and the Olympics to ban it due to the association with illicit sports enhancement drugs but not enough to to do anything besides lessen the cash in your wallet.







All this deer velvet craze proves is that the placebo effect indeed is very strong.




With that said, I hope Crabtree was loading up on more HGH than Phil Heath.

So the point of injectible compounds is to avoid passage through the stomach? Interesting.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I was joking around from day 1 in this thread regarding: Deer. Antler. Spray.

BUT, did anyone watch the 60 Minutes - Sports edition on Showtime? Wow!

They covered the most famous professional (alleged) client of Mitch Ross in, Ray Lewis en route to the Superbowl 4 months after his injury and the substance that IS banned by the NFL that is included in the spray/oral ingredients (called, IGF1). It's made in New Zealand but has been used by the Chinese for 2,000 years. It is known to speed up the growth of body tissue but particularly, bones and muscles. It's considered a "doping agent" (aka a growth hormone).

60 minutes confirmed text's between Lewis and his supplier and requested contact with Lewis but naturally, he declined. Hugh Jackson, coach for the Raiders, was also a big fan of these products (while with the Ravens - via video saying he recommended them to Lewis himself) and claimed he was a big believer in the new "chips." Alabama players on video too. And according to Mitch now, the Ravens starting SS Ihedigbo is the "new Ray Lewis" buying products for all of the Ravens (no comment from him either). I love that Mitch is going after Jerry Jones as well b/c he's an innovator. Now, why would he go after an NFL owner and continue to distribute these products knowing they contain a banned NFL substance? B/c the NFL does NOT test for IGF1. We'll just call it "Adderall."

Anyhow, why did I post this in the Crabtree thread? No reason...

"Things that make you go, hmmmm."

Meh. There's a big difference between IGF-1 that you inject and the garbage crap they sell as a supplement. Ray Lewis got better because he was likely on a regimen of HGH and other pharmaceuticals. This deer velvet antler stuff is pure nonsense propagated by hype and slick marketing. Basic science tells us that the stuff can't work, not that its unlikely to work, but it can't work, at least not in the manner claimed.


When you consume any type of protein, your body ends up breaking down those proteins into amino acids that the body then utilizes for its individual purposes. Testosterone, IGF-1, HGH, these are all hormones, but they are also proteins, taking any of them orally in their basic chemical state simply means that the body will end up cleaving them, breaking them apart and the intended purpose for their use will not be accomplished. In the case of testosterone, you need another compound bonded to the testosterone to protect it from being broken apart through first pass metabolism in the liver. This reason is why oral steroids are much more dangerous and have worse side effects than the injectable kind, the process that allows the oral steroids to survive the first pass through the liver also drastically increases the toxicity and side-effects, especially upon the liver.


Oral HGH and IGF-1 will be destroyed in the stomach, if you could take a pill containing HGH or IGF-1 and have it absorb properly, the big pharmaceutical companies would be all over that like a fat kid on a stack of flapjacks.



Ray Lewis recovered due to deer velvet antler extract the same way Mark McGwire bulked up thanks to creatine, with the difference being that creatine actually can boost athletic performance and is one of the most studied sports supplements in existence.


Even if you were to buy that by some miracle, IGF-1 just skipped the entire reality of the human digestive process, you're still screwed because studies show that a single bottle of the deer antler velvet contains a absolutely miniscule amount of actual IGF-1.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7533772

"In conclusion, 100 micrograms/g rhIGF-I, given twice daily, 1) has GH-like effects on whole body protein metabolism,"



So 100 micrograms twice daily of IGF-1....or 200 micrograms is the effective dose. How much does a bottle of IGF-1 supplement contain?

https://www.royalvelvetnow.com/index.php


About 3,000 and 5,000 nanograms. With about 60 servings per bottle, you're looking at getting 80 nanograms at best...or....0.08 micrograms per day, compared to an effective dose of 100 micrograms per day. Not even remotely close to a proper dose that would make any sort of difference. You'd have to take 40 whole bottles a day of the supplement to get an effective amount of IGF-1, if it even absorbed orally in the first place.


Studies have shown no hormonal response as a result of deer velvet antler extract supplementation.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669926

"There were no endocrine, red cell mass or VO2max changes in any group. These findings do not support an erythropoetic or aerobic ergogenic effect of deer antler velvet."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16286669

"It appears that 10 wk of EVA supplementation does not significantly improve rowing performance nor alter hormonal responses at rest or after acute exercise than training alone."



Its still enough for the NFL and the Olympics to ban it due to the association with illicit sports enhancement drugs but not enough to to do anything besides lessen the cash in your wallet.







All this deer velvet craze proves is that the placebo effect indeed is very strong.




With that said, I hope Crabtree was loading up on more HGH than Phil Heath.

McGwire used Androstenedione . i know people who sold it to him at my local vitamin store in Costa Mesa, CA when it was still legal. this was in 1999.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
So the point of injectible compounds is to avoid passage through the stomach? Interesting.

With HGH and IGF-1, by injecting them you release them into the bloodstream instantly, it's really the only proven method of delivery. One more additional problem with the OTC products is their composition, too much alcohol in the formula can render whatever trace amounts of the hormone are in there, completely inactive. If the product isn't stored right, if its not properly refrigerated...etc...etc..etc.


It's just a waste of money. A simple hour of exercise will boost your IGF-1 levels higher than any supplement you could possibly buy.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
So the point of injectible compounds is to avoid passage through the stomach? Interesting.

P is right on every level here (and I appreciate his response as well). It's an important topic in today's game (well really, always has been in the background until Lance Armstrong).

What I found most interesting about the episode was how many players claimed it worked very well. For God's sake, you have a 60 minutes episode on the subject with NFL players and coaches talking about it openly yet the NFL stays quiet? Like all the "Adderall" issues up in Seattle and how those suspensions (or dropped) were nicely spread out not to hurt the Hawks during the playoff run. You don't want to hurt the product on the field now. And eqully important, I'm assuming these players aren't ingesting small amounts from Mitch but would bet that they are injecting high doses during recovery...maybe? Getting star players back out on the field faster is important to the bottom dollar for the NFL. And thef fact that the NFL, despite it being a banned substance, doesn't even test for it?

Personally, if there is a substance that can help an athlete (or anyone) heal quicker w/o side effects, who wouldn't be for that? But like P said, this may be nothing more than a placebo effect and as professionals, many athletes will do ANYTHING for the edge. They are the perfect client!

Anyhow, Crabtree...good to have you back buddy. Here is to your short-term and long-term healthy, buddy!

Originally posted by boast:
McGwire used Androstenedione . i know people who sold it to him at my local vitamin store in Costa Mesa, CA when it was still legal. this was in 1999.

He used a lot more than that. Andro was hyped because it was really the first generation of the OTC steroids, however its overall potency wasn't that great. I don't have a single doubt that McGwire, like many steroid users, was stacking multiple compounds, injecting test ethanate along with popping andro and more.


There was a period in time after the government crackdown on Andro that you ended up with immensely stronger and toxic oral steroids that were available OTC, stuff like M1T, Superdrol, Pheraplex...etc, even though they were "supplements", these products were every pit as potent as black market oral steroids, eventually the government cracked down on those too and now the remaining market is pretty minimal which a lot of snake oil crap out there, Gamma Oryzanol and other crap supplements being pushed on people.


I'll make a thread in the Parking Lot section about something effective, legal and safe that people can use to get better results for their money.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

I'll make a thread in the Parking Lot section about something effective, legal and safe that people can use to get better results for their money.

You da man!

Originally posted by NCommand:
P is right on every level here (and I appreciate his response as well). It's an important topic in today's game (well really, always has been in the background until Lance Armstrong).

What I found most interesting about the episode was how many players claimed it worked very well. For God's sake, you have a 60 minutes episode on the subject with NFL players and coaches talking about it openly yet the NFL stays quiet? Like all the "Adderall" issues up in Seattle and how those suspensions (or dropped) were nicely spread out not to hurt the Hawks during the playoff run. You don't want to hurt the product on the field now. And eqully important, I'm assuming these players aren't ingesting small amounts from Mitch but would bet that they are injecting high doses during recovery...maybe? Getting star players back out on the field faster is important to the bottom dollar for the NFL. And thef fact that the NFL, despite it being a banned substance, doesn't even test for it?

Personally, if there is a substance that can help an athlete (or anyone) heal quicker w/o side effects, who wouldn't be for that? But like P said, this may be nothing more than a placebo effect and as professionals, many athletes will do ANYTHING for the edge. They are the perfect client!

Anyhow, Crabtree...good to have you back buddy. Here is to your short-term and long-term healthy, buddy!

I think its far more likely that these guys are loading up on injectable IGF-1 and HGH and using the deer velvet antler extract as an alibi. With their financial resources and wherewithal, they can get their hands on the legit version pretty easily. IGF-1 in general isn't hard to find, as long as you claim its for rats and not for personal use, its easier than people think, now as far as the purity of what you might get out there.........now you're just throwing darts while blindfolded.


I'd say that a lot of these miracle recoveries are an overall combination of improved surgical technique, enhanced physical therapy methods and detailed hormonal intervention....aka.......pharmaceutical assistance.

Great insight P! Thanks again...

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
So the point of injectible compounds is to avoid passage through the stomach? Interesting.

Or is it the liver?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great insight P! Thanks again...

agreed

Good for the guy to be coming back from this injury, but I have doubts on his impact for the team. Return to field doesn't mean return to form, never happened before especially with an achilles. Others were playing already from this injury but they weren't close to the same player. Even more important for a WR.

Guy is going to be a shell of what he usually is. Though a good player I don't consider him one of those special to be an exception.

Originally posted by VectorGoal:
Good for the guy to be coming back from this injury, but I have doubts on his impact for the team. Return to field doesn't mean return to form, never happened before especially with an achilles. Others were playing already from this injury but they weren't close to the same player. Even more important for a WR.

Guy is going to be a shell of what he usually is. Though a good player I don't consider him one of those special to be an exception.

crabs was a monster last year after Kap took over and he did it with his great route running and hands. if hes not as fast as he was last year he'll still be extremely effective with his shiftiness and route running