LaMichael James was a Niner (CUT!)

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Hunter is not a "change of pace." He's a similar physical runner as Gore. James and Hunter couldn't be more different in terms of their running styles. If used properly, I think James could be a contributor on this offense, if he's traded and Roman stays, it makes no difference, that just proves that the offensive coaching staff continually doesn't know how to use their players properly. Good teams find or create roles for guys to contribute, you don't think James could go to New England, New Orleans, Seattle or Denver and be utilized regularly in the offense? Those teams would find a way to get him the ball in space, to use running plays that go to his strengths.

Meanwhile jackass is up in the booth, having James run up the middle as if he was Gore and having Dixon run to the outside like he's LeSean McCoy.

This team is dedicated to power running...period! Drives me crazy but everything revolves around that principle and James is not a great blocker in the jumbo packages nor is he a power runner...at least not nearly as good as Gore.

Last week we saw what James can do in open space with his returns but this week they covered much better. He can do the same thing as a RB but only with some dedicated plays to use his skill. It's as if the coaches say...OK...we have X amount of time in practice to learn new plays and not enough time to devote to skills that can't be run by every back....from Dixon to James.

I agree that they could install a sub package for LMJ, but if they arent going to...then what is the point of keeping him. And despite the snark from pheonix I dont agree that Hunter is the same style as Gore...one is clearly a one move and hit the hole as fast as possible runner that is hoping to be elusive in once hitting the second level and the other uses vision and patience to set up his blocks and then pushes the pile after contact by running low and with power. Those are not the same thing, beyond that Hunter does in fact have similar speed to LMJ, which further highlights how silly it is that one can block and run between the tackles and the other needs plays designed around getting him in open space just to be effective. The issue as I see it is that Hunter could do everything LMJ is doing for us as a back and still be used in pass protection and between the tackles...he has superior speed to Gore and is probably more dangerous when he gets to the edge,but isnt a one trick pony so he is more usefull than LMJ...pretty much my definition of a change of pace back.

I think New Orleans would and could use LMJ very well because they have proclivity towards the sort of things he excells at, Seattle and Denver had guys like him and never used them all that well and New England has a similar power run game to ours and he probably wouldnt even make the field. LMJ has a particular skill set...there are a few teams in the league that he would be attractive to...but to portray it like our OC is a jackass because he doesnt fit in here as well as planned is just pattently false...he would have a tough time on a lot of teams.

As to that jackass in the booth if he was running specific backs in a specific way everytime they entered the game you would be complaining about how its a tell for the opposing defense....typical. The dude is very far from perfect, but sometimes I wish people would limit their arguements to legitimate gripes rather than just blathering on about things adding to the noise.

Originally posted by eonblue:

Originally posted by ghostrider:
I feel comfortable with him returning punts... just not catching them!

I was hoping to see that he'd improved in this area when we stuck him in there last week, but no. He hasn't improved. He's still running up and back to field them. Yeah, he hasn't cost us a game, yet, but it could so very easily happen. I don't want another NFCCG mishap or worse yet, a Super Bowl mishap!

It was James who fumbled the ball on 10 yard line in the Super Bowl.

Personally I don't like LMJ. I don't think he suits this physical style of running because he can't break a tackle. He's not as fast or agile as people make him out to be either. Comparing him Sproles or Cobb is ridiculous.

Gire fumbles from time to time as well, but I'm not constantly fearing/expecting it when either is running the ball.

However, LMJ on punt returns is a huge muff waiting to happen and a series of lesser muffs currently happening. Every time he's ever been back there since we've drafted him (admittedly, mostly preseason) I've been expecting a muff 1 out of every 3 catches with the other 2 being fighting-the-ball-almost-muffs.



Once he catches it, I feel good, but my heart doesn't beat until then.

he's got the rest of the season to fix that......

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Muffed punts happen. Just like in any other sport; mistakes happen. It's the repetition of mistakes that's a red flag like kW.

LMJ has talented as hell and definitely isn't being used to his potential.

Most people, including me, thought Bush was a BUST! But Detroit has found way to get the most out of him.

Doubtfully Roman can do the same - yet there's always hope.

If he isn't going to use him effectively then we should try to get something for him and get a chance to find a player who'll they'll use.Nothing against LMJ but if we aren't going to use him then why keep him?

I think his time in Miami showed he was a legitimate back, but especially even more so in a heavier passing offense. Problem in New Orleans is they haven't used a "featured back" since Deuce McAllister. Bush would be a big-time threat in an Andy Reid system too.

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
I agree that they could install a sub package for LMJ, but if they arent going to...then what is the point of keeping him. And despite the snark from pheonix I dont agree that Hunter is the same style as Gore...one is clearly a one move and hit the hole as fast as possible runner that is hoping to be elusive in once hitting the second level and the other uses vision and patience to set up his blocks and then pushes the pile after contact by running low and with power. Those are not the same thing, beyond that Hunter does in fact have similar speed to LMJ, which further highlights how silly it is that one can block and run between the tackles and the other needs plays designed around getting him in open space just to be effective. The issue as I see it is that Hunter could do everything LMJ is doing for us as a back and still be used in pass protection and between the tackles...he has superior speed to Gore and is probably more dangerous when he gets to the edge,but isnt a one trick pony so he is more usefull than LMJ...pretty much my definition of a change of pace back.

Hunter and Gore are much more similar in style as running backs, but James is the guy who presents a different package and combination of athleticism. He's the quickest running back on the roster, he's not a burner but he's also the fastest running back on the roster. He's a guy who can be extremely elusive and make people miss in the open field, the problem is he is continually being used the wrong way. When they put him in offense, they'll often run him the way they would run with Gore, they haven't tried incorporating him into the passing game as a checkdown threat much, utilize him on screens, slants, it doesn't have to be as extensive as what the Saints do but damn, they drafted the guy, give him a chance to work into the offense and make some plays, he's a mismatch for a lot of defenses with the ball in his hands, yet another guy who can stretch the field out.

People like to compare Hunter and James because of their size but their running styles are nothing alike.

I think New Orleans would and could use LMJ very well because they have proclivity towards the sort of things he excells at, Seattle and Denver had guys like him and never used them all that well and New England has a similar power run game to ours and he probably wouldnt even make the field. LMJ has a particular skill set...there are a few teams in the league that he would be attractive to...but to portray it like our OC is a jackass

Roman is a jackass for that and many other reasons. And yes, New England couldn't utilize a guy with James' skillset but they successfully utilized superstars such as Edelman and Woodhead. Makes sense.

because he doesnt fit in here as well as planned is just pattently false...he would have a tough time on a lot of teams.

That's your opinion entirely of course, I think there's a lot of teams that he could be a valuable contributor on. I'm sure we can agree to disagree.

As to that jackass in the booth if he was running specific backs in a specific way everytime they entered the game you would be complaining about how its a tell for the opposing defense....typical. The dude is very far from perfect, but sometimes I wish people would limit their arguements to legitimate gripes rather than just blathering on about things adding to the noise.

One of the very problems with their offensive philosophy they try so hard to throw the defense off that they end up putting themselves in bad situations as result, such as when running Dixon out wide. Run James to the outside and block for him, if the defense stops him, great, but at least give him a chance to be a playmaker, get the ball out to him in space, the best offenses in the NFL don't have a lot of surprises to them, you know what they are going to do and you know who the ball is going to and they still manage to be successful. Trying to be overly clever and use a bunch of gadget plays does not an offensive philosophy make.


So yeah, that jackass in the booth continues to show that he doesn't have a clue how to utilize these guys in ways that make the player and the team successful.

James has touched the ball just over 60 times in his career and he's fumbled it 6 times (4 fumbles, 1 fumble against NE that they said forward progress stopped, and a fumble vs. Atl. that he was barely down by contact on a KR). That pretty much says everything. I don't care what he potentially brings as a punt returner; for a ball control team, if he's fumbling the ball once every 10 touches, that's unacceptable and WILL cost this team.

This isn't only an issue on kicks and punts, it's an issue on runs with him. Every time he gets touched it feels like there's a chance the ball's gonna get ripped out.

Originally posted by Disp:
James has touched the ball just over 60 times in his career and he's fumbled it 6 times (4 fumbles, 1 fumble against NE that they said forward progress stopped, and a fumble vs. Atl. that he was barely down by contact on a KR). That pretty much says everything. I don't care what he potentially brings as a punt returner; for a ball control team, if he's fumbling the ball once every 10 touches, that's unacceptable and WILL cost this team.

This isn't only an issue on kicks and punts, it's an issue on runs with him. Every time he gets touched it feels like there's a chance the ball's gonna get ripped out.

Crap. That is a scary stat. Thanks for posting.

Say what you will about Kyle fair catching so many punts, but the thing is, he caught them. LMJ has had 2 muffs in the past 2 games. Don't think for a second that the ball security emphasizing coaching staff has not taken notice. Yes I realize Kyle f'ed up in the NCFCG, but they weren't muffs.

Originally posted by Disp:
James has touched the ball just over 60 times in his career and he's fumbled it 6 times (4 fumbles, 1 fumble against NE that they said forward progress stopped, and a fumble vs. Atl. that he was barely down by contact on a KR). That pretty much says everything. I don't care what he potentially brings as a punt returner; for a ball control team, if he's fumbling the ball once every 10 touches, that's unacceptable and WILL cost this team.

This isn't only an issue on kicks and punts, it's an issue on runs with him. Every time he gets touched it feels like there's a chance the ball's gonna get ripped out.

emphasize 1 fumble in the superbowl...............

james has always scared the hell out of me on punt returns. I think we are just stuck with him , both the good and bad. then you go after the best return man you can find in the draft. if he can play wr that is just gravy.There is no one you can put back there for a punt return so we are just going to have to deal with that lurching in our stomach when the other team punts to him

Originally posted by Disp:
James has touched the ball just over 60 times in his career and he's fumbled it 6 times (4 fumbles, 1 fumble against NE that they said forward progress stopped, and a fumble vs. Atl. that he was barely down by contact on a KR). That pretty much says everything. I don't care what he potentially brings as a punt returner; for a ball control team, if he's fumbling the ball once every 10 touches, that's unacceptable and WILL cost this team.

This isn't only an issue on kicks and punts, it's an issue on runs with him. Every time he gets touched it feels like there's a chance the ball's gonna get ripped out.

Still working with a short sample size. By the same logic, Ted Ginn should never be allowed to return punts or kicks because he fumbled the ball 5 times in his second season in the NFL. He got criticized for muffing a bunch of punts when with Miami, but was a fairly reliable returner with the 49ers, no. Returners need reps to get their confidence. Josh Cribbs, Devin Hester, both of those guys had issues with ball control, it comes with the territory. Hester fumbled 6 times as a returner in his first season.

If you want someone with dynamic return ability, then you take the good with the bad, either that or you take back 'Fair Catch' Williams and expect to have the ball between the 20-30 yard line everytime.


Like I said, James needs to improve his focus and I'm sure the coaching staff will work with him on that, if he continues to make mistakes, then you look at replacing him on returns as well, but people are overreacting quite a bit. The guy barely played last season until Hunter got injured, then they threw him in, this preseason he didn't get much work, they made him inactive for several of these games, young players will make mistakes, it happens.



James right now has one of the better punt return averages in the NFL, he's averaging almost 12 yards per return, he's certainly worth working with.

Phoenix, what are you talking about? Ginn was so unreliable on kicks and punts last year that he lost his job and the Niners made no effort to resign him. He had 4 punt return fumbles in like 30-35 attempts. He was great in 2010 and 2011 and was a liability last year.

Originally posted by Disp:
Phoenix, what are you talking about? Ginn was so unreliable on kicks and punts last year that he lost his job and the Niners made no effort to resign him. He had 4 punt return fumbles in like 35 attempts. He was great in 2010 and 2011 and was a liability last year.

agree,, at the time it made sense to let ginn walk. i remember many of us were saying our return game for this year could not be worse that last year. well we were wrong about that but still as disp"at the time" it made sense to let him walk, not good with punt returns, lost his return jobs to james or hunter and did not do anything as a wide out.. Now as we can see his lack of production as a wide out for us may just be another shovel on romans heap

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:




James right now has one of the better punt return averages in the NFL, he's averaging almost 12 yards per return, he's certainly worth working with.

Your talking about an avg over a small amount of games.

Not to mention he to hear Phoenix tell it he suddenly has amazing pass catching ability to rival guys like Woodhead that have made their entire career based on it and are producing just as well on other teams.

and he accuses me of posting opinions...

James needs to step it up. Hopefully this is the weekend he takes his first return to the house! I said that last week though too.

As for James as a running back, I'm in the not at all convinced crowd. He's always made up for his size by being quicker than everyone else and at this level he just not that fast. He's never been a receiving back at all so I don't think putting him in the slot or playmaker type role is right for him either. I won't even mention him in the same universe as Sproles. Not to mention that aside from one or two plays he seems to get taken down by a slight breeze.

He needs to take on this special teams role and at least become reliable before he even worries about taking touches from Gore and Hunter. At this point he should never be an option on offense.