Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by SFSK8R89:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
I watched or listened to every single game the past 10 years (tough to find an internet video stream with horrible net speeds in Afghanistan) and I seem to recall more plays where Walker was open underneath and ran for the extra yardage. And the stats back it up. That what stats are for...
Yea i agree, it's so comical to think a personnel grouping with blockers in it is going to end up running a play where we need blocking. Oops... sorry, forgot about the few jumbo play actions plays to the big guys (wait, that's it, only a few?)...
How has this regime demonstrated anything other than what I have shown you they've DONE. Considering this was the only season this regime has been here, they can only demonstrate what their intentions were during that season. Since we know, FOR A FACT, Walker was utilized more in a blocking role than a receiving role, it seems what you would consider their intentions is far different than what their intentions were. They can tell the media their intentions are one thing and then your blocking TE gets hurt and, "oh no! we need you to block, Delanie." When Singletary was in charge, old man Raye would put us in 3rd and forever, forcing us to go deep, which is why you see Delanie have a few more longer receptions.
Haven't we already determined he's not being paid much? So we're better off drafting Fleener and pay him more money? I think we have more pressing needs at pick #30... OL, DL, WR, maybe another LB, CB, or S? I'd put my money on OL at 30.
And no, we're not discounting any big plays, those numbers are for his CAREER. But, just to show you how wrong you are, THIS year, 19 catches at an avg of 10.4 yds ~ 198 yds... which is what he had. 2 plays were for 20 yds, longest was 29 yds. we're not discounting anything there...his next longest was 19 yds, then 10. So, out of 19 catches, only 3 of them were deep. The rest were where? 5-7 yds with a few YAC. Hrm... Odd.
A wheel route... You understand what that is, right? You start off running towards the flat just around the line of scrimmage, then turn upfield when you get outside the hash (or midway between the hash and sideline in the NFL). Depending on the primary read, you may get the ball at the LOS, and get some YAC, or, in the case you spoke about, the primary read (VD, in this case) is covered, as you progress through the reads, more time elapses and the wheel route gets pushed further down field. So, a designed 5-10 yard gain from a wheel route can very well be a 29 yd TD. In a trips bunch formation it is designed to be a little quicker because the route runner is already near the flat. It ends up being a misdirection, ISO, even a screen of sorts, depending on the offensive philosophy.
As I've said already (might be in another thread), with no legit #1, it is EASY to cover our threats. Every single play they can double cover someone AND keep a safety over the top AND keep the box stacked (no need to play the LBs deep to cover TEs with a S over the top), which is most likely why you remember him not being able to break free from a safety deep. The linebacker covers him until 10 yds, then he's got the safety to take over... simple zone coverage... Even in man there's still a safety over the top with crabs or VD doubled.
If you want to see the stats for ALL tightends, go look at them, I told you exactly where I pulled the stats from. Otherwise, be happy with the group of 6 or 7 in exact order to show that our #2 TE is in good company, and has similar stats. The only excuse for spouting off arguments without checking is laziness.
This year with a legit #1 and hopefully Byham back, both Walker and Smith are going to silence all you haters. Bank it.
It seriously seems like you are more interested in trying to be right than making an argument that has any secure ties to reality.
1) Analyzing Walker's stats for the year does NOT support your claim that he gets consistent YAC from short passes. He got 3.6 YAC in his only season under this staff, and a lot of that came on one longer throw, not a dumpoff that he turned into paydirt.
2) The coaches have stated that they like to pass out of 2 TE sets because they have a chance to catch the defense in unfavorable matchups. They have passed out of this formation on all three downs, and have down so with relative success and frequency, as compared to other formations and personnel groups.
3) Walker is not being paid much NOW. The Matts have written that Walker has stated that he wants a #1 TE role, and a #1 TE salary, and he is a FA after this year. Walker will get considerably more money next year than he will this year, and IMO he doesn't do enough on this team to deserve it. Fleener (or any other TE drafted) would not make much money as a late 1st round pick or later on the rookie pay scale.
4) In discussing this season's stats, you again conveniently gloss over his 3.6 YAC for the year, which was inflated by his longer plays. That means that the majority of his catches were short -intermediate routes where he went down right about where he caught the ball. The reason he catches so many of these routes, by comparison, is because shorter routes are covered more frequently by LBs, and he struggles to separate from safeties. His receivng stats do not take into account the intermediate-to-deep routes he ran and never got open, because he was blanket covered by one safety.
5) You must be new to football. A Wheel route is NEVER designed to get 5 yards. That's a joke. A diagonal path to the sideline is an arrow, and it can be hooked up or wheeled up on longer route packages. The wheel is always an intermediate to long route, and is run MANY time more than it is thrown, or is set up as a big hit by running MANY arrows in the first half of the game to breed complacency in the coverage scheme. It is, in every scheme, a shot play. The one we were discussing is not misdirection at all. It was a route pacjage run to the same side that forced the safety to choose to support either the seam route (VD) or the wheel (Walker). The corner was occupied in coverage by the WR. The idea of QBs reading one route at a time is outdated, by at least a decade. Alex would likely be reading the seam and the wheel together (since they are both leveraged by the same over-the-top coverage) by reading and reacting to the coverage before zeroing in on the individual matchup. Route packages like that are generally designed for him to know who is throwing to before the reciever wins. Generally speaking, all route packages are designed to target a specific defensive position on the field and force them to choose wrong.
6) GB and NE have proven that they can take a diversely talented group and scheme many openings. They get huge yards without an archetypical #1, and they have done so with their superstar QBs on the shelf. Moss never once ran a complete route tree, and he rarely wins in the middle or inside the numbers in the short/intermediate range. Greg Jennings does what he is asked to do very well, but he is rarely expected to beat double coverage. True #1s like the Johnsons and Fitz need to do that all of the time. NE and GB succeed because they throw to whomever is in single coverage, as all of the players they put out into a route are expected to win when left singled up. Even zone schemes require defenders to rotate and man up on the receiver running through their zone. All deep routes eventually turn into single or double man coverage.
7) I already DID look at the complete stats, and I pointed out all of the #2 TEs that you failed to include in your list (there were 7)
8) I never mentioned Alex in this thread, and I never said I hated Delanie. I said that he is overrated on this board, and I said that the offense would benefit by better play from the #2 TE position, especially if that improved play comes from a player that actually threatens the defense.
Sooooooooo, this has been fun and all...
I imagine you will want to get the last word in, so have at it.
I normally don't mind differences of opinion on here, and I generally enjoy the discussion, but I have no idea where your arguments are coming from, and this isn't a lot of fun. Sorry if Walker is your boy, your man, or your son. I mean no disrespect to him, but it seems plainly obvious to me that the offense would be much more deadly with more production from that spot, as Harbaugh's offense has always leaned heavily on ALL TEs on the field.
Do what you do man
GO NINERS!
Do you practice insulting people, or is just natural?
i'll concede the wheel route to you. but to continually insult me AND have nothing to backup your arguments makes you sound ignorant. this would have been much more civil had you been mature.
Your argument was based on opinion, and you being on "the Matt's" nuts (which you've provided no links for) instead of looking at the same stats they're using as the basis for their articles. Next you'll probably tell me the Cohn family is God's gift to 49ers beat writing.
But, since you don't want to verify any of the stats I've posted due to sheer laziness or cared to talk about it objectively, and then attack me for it, that will be my so called "last word."
I take it all back! This IS fun, and YOU ARE AWEOME! I know I said I was done replying to you, but that was before you pulled an entirely new "You" out of the hat! Sooo, you never posted under your Vet profile in this thread, but you want me to verify the stats "you" posted in this thread? AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW-SOME!!!!! How, goes this work: do you post nice guy stuff under the Vet profile, padding your post total and protecting your Vet status behind a low warning level, only to pick fights with an easily discarded member profile? Is that even allowed? How many of you are there?
Incidentally, the Matts are very good beat writers aho have an impeccable track record for being correct.
And I am not the only person making (and and statistically supporting) my points; I am just the only idiot who was foolish enough to reply at length to your "dark side."
See:
Originally posted by buck:
I went through all the receiving statistics for TE in the NFL.
I can never be sure how important statistics are, but they do give us something to consider.
Here is a list of the number of catches and yards gained by the 2nd tight end.
Delanie Walker is 11th on the list.
1. Aaron Hernandez NE 79 910
2. Jeremy Shockey CAR 37 455
3. Dennis Pitta BAL 40 405
4. Joel Dreessen HOU 28 353
5. Tony Scheffler DET 26 347
6. Evan Moore CLE 34 324
8. Randy McMichael SD 30 271
9. Jeff King ARI 27 271
10. Kyle Rudolph MIN 26 249
11. Delanie Walker SF 19 198
In the percentage of catches that went for first downs, Delanie was 10th on the list.
On average 57.6 % of the catches by these tight ends went for first downs.
47.4% of Delanie's catches gained a first down.
Only 40% of Randy McMichael's catches were for a first down.
76.9 of Tony Scheffler's receptions gained a first down.
and:
Originally posted by nickbradley:
That doesn't look at catch rate. He's at 54% - so if you look at times targeted, he's terrible.
and don't forget this guy:
Originally posted by WINiner:
I think Delanie wants to be a #1 and will demand that kind of money when he's a FA after the season. He's very overrated on the zone imo. I would prefer to have Fleener over Walker in 2013 personally.
Those are all areas you refused to reply to during our discourse. Stats that others and myself quoted to you that you disregarded. Stats that are horrible for a #2 TE who is on the field, and out in a route, this frequently. If you choose to reply, please use the correct profile. Wouldn't want you to sully your good veteran name.
There is an issue with the twitter login. I have already sent the mods a pm. It happened when I signed in the first time, too. Somehow my twitter account bugged and logged me in as that guy and I posted before I realized it was under that guys name.
Those are actually areas you never discussed at me, and if you did, I responded, until your last post before you decided you were ultimately right.
And if you read through the thread, I DID, in fact, talk about that stuff, in fact you quoted a response i made many times. Aside from Walker wanting #1 money, which is all speculation.
There are about a million ways to run the same play, a million ways to run plays with different personnel groupings. We are a power run team with sub par OL performance. We aren't the Patriots. I think if we had a more solid OL, our coaching staff could have schemed to utilize Walker as a receiver more, and you would see increased stats. Our #2 TE happened to have been needed as a blocker, and he happens to be in good company stat-wise for his position.
[ Edited by mkmasn on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:36 PM ]