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Get rid of Kyle Williams or keep him?

Get rid of Kyle Williams or keep him?

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by okdkid:
Originally posted by Shaj:
flawed survey. The keep him option also says "he is the best", which nobody agrees with.

And yet the majority still voted to keep him...despite the original poster's attempt to skew the data.

The current generation of 49er loves crappy football players and will continue to make excuses for them until the cows come home.

LOL. Sus, don't ever change. If it were up to you we'd only have 30 players on the roster.

damn right and they would be the best 30 in the league.

LOL. I disagree with you most of the time, but at least you make me laugh (in a good way). ;-)

just keep it loose, never to overly serious.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:
The team sholdn't make a decision on him based on emotion, that would give a "walking on eggshells" kind of atmosphere in the locker room (ala Mike Nolan). But Kyle Williams hasn't really done enough for the team to save/guarantee a roster spot for him. However, he has shown enough to at least go into training camp. A lot of the players are backing him up too. So let him earn it.

Anyways....... aren't there undersized speedsters projected late in the draft EVERY YEAR??? as far as talent, he's dime a dozen.

JMHO

I have ZERO problem with him not making the roster if there are better guys on the roster. NO PROBLEM AT ALL.

I'm just talking here about the lunacy of essentially cutting the guy as a punative action. It's not JUST about Kyle Williams. That's what SOO MANY PEEPS her don't get. It's like they think this guy is in a vacuum and how you handle him goes unnoticed to the rest of the team.

These guy bleed with him. They spnd time with him. They know him better than any of us.

If you simply cut him because he made a mistake and show him zero loyalty, the rest of the team will respond in kind.

It's really not complicated fellas.


LOL i hear you. some people don't understand how these kinds of decisions affect "THE TEAM, THE TEAM, THE TEAM."

(Just like the bad locker room vibes from last year cutting Michael Robinson)

...who is currently in Hawaii.


..........SMH.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
If this would have happened on a regular season Sunday, Williams would have been CUT on Monday. For all you who keep whining/rationalizing that "it takes a team," "1-for-13 on 3rd down," blah blah blah, that's just LAME. Yes the offense was struggling, and of course you can deconstruct every game to say "well if this guy did this, then that would or wouldn't have happened." Stop it. The facts are that, as much as Smith/Offense were struggling, at the beginning of the 4th qtr they had enough points to win. The Niner D was KILLING Manning and the Giants...I don't think they even made it past midfield in 2nd half / OT, EXCEPT for the two gifts from Williams.

Sorry, the dude is a bubble player to begin with, easily replaceable...his modest WR skills are not even close to offsetting the liability of his PROVEN low football IQ. Don't forget, besides his spotty history in college, he almost cost the Niners the #2 seed in that Dec. 24th game against the Seahawks...Niners were very lucky a questionable personal foul was called on the 'Hawks on the KO return where Williams slipped and didn't realize he was NOT down, and then fumbled on the hit.

yeah, I remember when we cut Delanie Walker, David Baas, and Philip Adams after their mistakes against the Saints last year.
Please. None of those players made 6, count 'em, SIX egregious errors in a single game. Of those six, 3 cost the 49ers yardage in a field-position game. One, the diving catch of the punt, was just risky and stupid given circumstances and conditions. Another one, the muff, inexcusable...you yell "poison" and get the hell away from the ball. And finally, the fumble. In case you didn't notice, those last two effectively gave the Giants 10 points and a trip to Indy for the SB.

6? come on man.
1) drop/fumble on the attempted reverse, loss of 10 yards...this was on 1st/10, RIGHT AFTER holding Giants on 4th down.

2) dive to catch the punt

3 & 4) fair catches with no one within 10 yards...the second one I don't think there was a Giant within 15 yards.

5) muff

6) fumble



you fault him risky plays and also fault him for making the safe plays?

i count one "egregious error" in that list. The muff.

Not just that, but everyone is crucifying him over that last fumble....

....had any of you watched what had happened BEFORE that play. The O did NOTHING. NOTHING!!

The only points in the second half were scored after....wait for it....LONG KYLE WILLIAMS KICKOFF RETURNS!!!

As for the list above

1) bad play, but I actually blame the play call more then anything. You don;t call a play that puts the ball at risk that many times in those conditions. He also made a good play to get it back.

2) Bad play....but if you know anything about Candlestick, it's pretty common. On a windy, rainy day the ball will do some weird things in the air. He should have just let it go, but they guy is very young and will make those kinds of mistakes.

3 +4) No clue what you are talking about. Dunno those specific plays...but it's one or the other. He should either be conservative or try to make a play. Make up your mind.

5) BAD, BAD play. Total brainfart. Not excusing it.

6) He was trying to give the O good field position because they had shown ZERO ability to move the ball. None. He knew all they needed was a field goal and he tried to go out and win the game. I won't fault a guy for it.
1) That reverse was actually a good play call when you consider that it would have gained some good yardage. The Giants left DE did not hold contain, the (49er) right side was open. But regardless if you consider it a good or bad play call, the fact is: Williams dropped it and set up a 2nd/20.

2) No need to trot out excuses about youth, Candlestick, etc. Bad play. Period.

3-4) Oh please, as if one can only "root" for one extreme or the other. I root for the smart play. And in the context of punt returns, when there is no one within a couple yards of making the hit, let alone 10+, the smart play is to return the ball.

6) Agreed, he was trying to make a play. But again, HE fumbled it. Not the struggling offense.

I'll reiterate, I don't hate Kyle Williams, I don't want his planted on a spit outside the Stick. I'm just saying he made of host of bad plays, and I don't think it will be detrimental in any way if he is not on the 49ers next season.

1) It's not a good play call if it doesn't work (well...that may be too simplistic, but you get my point). You have to factor in the playing conditions when you call a play like that.

2) You not wanting me to trot them out doesn't make them any less true.

3+4) Just calling out hypocracy.

6) I didn't say the offense fumbled it. I was saying that he was trying to help his team win. He didn't hand the ball to the Giants on purpose. He was trying to win the game. The other guys get paid too. They defender made an outstanding play and Williams WAS trying to protect the ball by switching it to his outside arm (something you learn in the most masic levels of football....I mean like in Pop Warner). The defender dove and hit the ball as it was being switched to the other hand. Bad Luck. Good play by defender.

1) Oh brother. I would say it's a good call when it clearly had the left DE out of position, he was overpursuing to his right instead of holding contain. It wasn't like the Giants blew up the play in the backfield. It didn't work because Williams fumbled it.

2) I don't know it's so hard to just say it was a risky/bad play, without any qualifiers.

3-4) Ugh. It's not hypocrisy if you apply just a modicum of common sense. Otherwise, you're saying that it's either always play it safe and fair catch it, or always go for broke and damn the consequences.

6) Um, not quite. He started out with the ball in front of him, carried in both hands...then as he started to tuck the ball into his RIGHT arm, that's when the Giants player (also named Williams) slapped it out. Yeah KW was trying to make a play, but maybe, just MAYBE, you'd think that ball security might have crept into his thought process by that point. This isn't Week 5 of the regular season. It's the NFCCG....and considering the problems he already had, that means immediately upon fielding the punt it's THREE POINTS OF CONTACT with the ball, and as soon as you enter traffic, you add the 4TH POINT OF CONTACT, which is the off hand covering the top of the ball.
Originally posted by 49er4america:
PEOPLE YOU KEEP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE PLAYCALLING THE OFFENSE ALEX SMITH. YADA YADA YADA. BUT IF YOU WERE NOT WATCHING THE GAME HERE IS A NEWS FLASH......WE WERE WINNING. WE WERE DOING EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED TO BE DOING.

ALEX DIDN'T HAVE HIS BEST GAME, BUT IT TOOK ELI 3 TIMES AS MANY ATTEMPTS TO SCORE AS MANY POINTS AS ALEX DID. WE WERE ON OUR WAY TO THE SUPER BOWL...PERIOD. HIS 1ST FUMBLE PUT THEM UP FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE GAME. HIS 2ND FUMBLE f**kED THE WHOLE BAY AREA. SEE IT HOW YOU WANT TO. BUT IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN THIS SAME s**t HAPPENED TO ROGER CRAIG 20 YEARS AGO AND WHAT DID WE DO THAT NEXT OFFSEASON, WE CUT HIM. AND WILLIAMS IS NO ROGER CRAIG LET ME MAKE THAT CLEAR.

SHIP HIS ASS TO THE WHITESOX LETS SEE HIS DADDY FORGIVE HIM WHEN IT IS HIS TEAM HE f**kS OVER.

Thanks, dude. Now ears are ringing.
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
1) Oh brother. I would say it's a good call when it clearly had the left DE out of position, he was overpursuing to his right instead of holding contain. It wasn't like the Giants blew up the play in the backfield. It didn't work because Williams fumbled it.

2) I don't know it's so hard to just say it was a risky/bad play, without any qualifiers.

3-4) Ugh. It's not hypocrisy if you apply just a modicum of common sense. Otherwise, you're saying that it's either always play it safe and fair catch it, or always go for broke and damn the consequences.

6) Um, not quite. He started out with the ball in front of him, carried in both hands...then as he started to tuck the ball into his RIGHT arm, that's when the Giants player (also named Williams) slapped it out. Yeah KW was trying to make a play, but maybe, just MAYBE, you'd think that ball security might have crept into his thought process by that point. This isn't Week 5 of the regular season. It's the NFCCG....and considering the problems he already had, that means immediately upon fielding the punt it's THREE POINTS OF CONTACT with the ball, and as soon as you enter traffic, you add the 4TH POINT OF CONTACT, which is the off hand covering the top of the ball.

The reverse didn't work because the hand off was late. They were too close together when they attempted it.
Originally posted by JoeisGod:
Thanks, dude. Now ears are ringing.

Yeah my bad a little worked up and didn't notice until it was already sent.
Originally posted by JoeisGod:
Originally posted by 49er4america:
PEOPLE YOU KEEP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE PLAYCALLING THE OFFENSE ALEX SMITH. YADA YADA YADA. BUT IF YOU WERE NOT WATCHING THE GAME HERE IS A NEWS FLASH......WE WERE WINNING. WE WERE DOING EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED TO BE DOING.

ALEX DIDN'T HAVE HIS BEST GAME, BUT IT TOOK ELI 3 TIMES AS MANY ATTEMPTS TO SCORE AS MANY POINTS AS ALEX DID. WE WERE ON OUR WAY TO THE SUPER BOWL...PERIOD. HIS 1ST FUMBLE PUT THEM UP FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE GAME. HIS 2ND FUMBLE f**kED THE WHOLE BAY AREA. SEE IT HOW YOU WANT TO. BUT IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN THIS SAME s**t HAPPENED TO ROGER CRAIG 20 YEARS AGO AND WHAT DID WE DO THAT NEXT OFFSEASON, WE CUT HIM. AND WILLIAMS IS NO ROGER CRAIG LET ME MAKE THAT CLEAR.

SHIP HIS ASS TO THE WHITESOX LETS SEE HIS DADDY FORGIVE HIM WHEN IT IS HIS TEAM HE f**kS OVER.

Thanks, dude. Now ears are ringing.
What the guy also failes to realize is if we use his 'logic' Alex would've been cut a LONG TIME AGO!
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
What the guy also failes to realize is if we use his 'logic' Alex would've been cut a LONG TIME AGO!

and that would have been a good thing
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
If this would have happened on a regular season Sunday, Williams would have been CUT on Monday. For all you who keep whining/rationalizing that "it takes a team," "1-for-13 on 3rd down," blah blah blah, that's just LAME. Yes the offense was struggling, and of course you can deconstruct every game to say "well if this guy did this, then that would or wouldn't have happened." Stop it. The facts are that, as much as Smith/Offense were struggling, at the beginning of the 4th qtr they had enough points to win. The Niner D was KILLING Manning and the Giants...I don't think they even made it past midfield in 2nd half / OT, EXCEPT for the two gifts from Williams.

Sorry, the dude is a bubble player to begin with, easily replaceable...his modest WR skills are not even close to offsetting the liability of his PROVEN low football IQ. Don't forget, besides his spotty history in college, he almost cost the Niners the #2 seed in that Dec. 24th game against the Seahawks...Niners were very lucky a questionable personal foul was called on the 'Hawks on the KO return where Williams slipped and didn't realize he was NOT down, and then fumbled on the hit.

yeah, I remember when we cut Delanie Walker, David Baas, and Philip Adams after their mistakes against the Saints last year.
Please. None of those players made 6, count 'em, SIX egregious errors in a single game. Of those six, 3 cost the 49ers yardage in a field-position game. One, the diving catch of the punt, was just risky and stupid given circumstances and conditions. Another one, the muff, inexcusable...you yell "poison" and get the hell away from the ball. And finally, the fumble. In case you didn't notice, those last two effectively gave the Giants 10 points and a trip to Indy for the SB.

6? come on man.
1) drop/fumble on the attempted reverse, loss of 10 yards...this was on 1st/10, RIGHT AFTER holding Giants on 4th down.

2) dive to catch the punt

3 & 4) fair catches with no one within 10 yards...the second one I don't think there was a Giant within 15 yards.

5) muff

6) fumble



you fault him risky plays and also fault him for making the safe plays?

i count one "egregious error" in that list. The muff.

Not just that, but everyone is crucifying him over that last fumble....

....had any of you watched what had happened BEFORE that play. The O did NOTHING. NOTHING!!

The only points in the second half were scored after....wait for it....LONG KYLE WILLIAMS KICKOFF RETURNS!!!

As for the list above

1) bad play, but I actually blame the play call more then anything. You don;t call a play that puts the ball at risk that many times in those conditions. He also made a good play to get it back.

2) Bad play....but if you know anything about Candlestick, it's pretty common. On a windy, rainy day the ball will do some weird things in the air. He should have just let it go, but they guy is very young and will make those kinds of mistakes.

3 +4) No clue what you are talking about. Dunno those specific plays...but it's one or the other. He should either be conservative or try to make a play. Make up your mind.

5) BAD, BAD play. Total brainfart. Not excusing it.

6) He was trying to give the O good field position because they had shown ZERO ability to move the ball. None. He knew all they needed was a field goal and he tried to go out and win the game. I won't fault a guy for it.
1) That reverse was actually a good play call when you consider that it would have gained some good yardage. The Giants left DE did not hold contain, the (49er) right side was open. But regardless if you consider it a good or bad play call, the fact is: Williams dropped it and set up a 2nd/20.

2) No need to trot out excuses about youth, Candlestick, etc. Bad play. Period.

3-4) Oh please, as if one can only "root" for one extreme or the other. I root for the smart play. And in the context of punt returns, when there is no one within a couple yards of making the hit, let alone 10+, the smart play is to return the ball.

6) Agreed, he was trying to make a play. But again, HE fumbled it. Not the struggling offense.

I'll reiterate, I don't hate Kyle Williams, I don't want his planted on a spit outside the Stick. I'm just saying he made of host of bad plays, and I don't think it will be detrimental in any way if he is not on the 49ers next season.

1) It's not a good play call if it doesn't work (well...that may be too simplistic, but you get my point). You have to factor in the playing conditions when you call a play like that.

2) You not wanting me to trot them out doesn't make them any less true.

3+4) Just calling out hypocracy.

6) I didn't say the offense fumbled it. I was saying that he was trying to help his team win. He didn't hand the ball to the Giants on purpose. He was trying to win the game. The other guys get paid too. They defender made an outstanding play and Williams WAS trying to protect the ball by switching it to his outside arm (something you learn in the most masic levels of football....I mean like in Pop Warner). The defender dove and hit the ball as it was being switched to the other hand. Bad Luck. Good play by defender.

1) Oh brother. I would say it's a good call when it clearly had the left DE out of position, he was overpursuing to his right instead of holding contain. It wasn't like the Giants blew up the play in the backfield. It didn't work because Williams fumbled it.

2) I don't know it's so hard to just say it was a risky/bad play, without any qualifiers.

3-4) Ugh. It's not hypocrisy if you apply just a modicum of common sense. Otherwise, you're saying that it's either always play it safe and fair catch it, or always go for broke and damn the consequences.

6) Um, not quite. He started out with the ball in front of him, carried in both hands...then as he started to tuck the ball into his RIGHT arm, that's when the Giants player (also named Williams) slapped it out. Yeah KW was trying to make a play, but maybe, just MAYBE, you'd think that ball security might have crept into his thought process by that point. This isn't Week 5 of the regular season. It's the NFCCG....and considering the problems he already had, that means immediately upon fielding the punt it's THREE POINTS OF CONTACT with the ball, and as soon as you enter traffic, you add the 4TH POINT OF CONTACT, which is the off hand covering the top of the ball.

1) Did he? Did he ever have posession? Was it a good toss? I honestly don't remember. Just because the play bropke wide open doesn't make it a good call. If the conditions make it very risky then I don't think it's a good call. Even if had worked for a big game, I still think it was risky.

2) It was a risky move. It wasn't the correct call. I'm just saying the wind can do that to you. It wreaked havok with Outfielders for 20+ years.

3+4) ...and all I'm saying is that you don't get it both ways. You ask him to play balls out or play it safe. You don't get to criticize both (at least not without me calling you on it).

6) Um, quite. He was moving the ball to teh other arm. That's why it was away from his body. You can't have three points of contact while you are trying to move the ball AWAY from the defender. He was doing what you loearn in pop warner football. Outside arm. Ball on the sideline side. Thats what you are taught.
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
What the guy also failes to realize is if we use his 'logic' Alex would've been cut a LONG TIME AGO!

and that would have been a good thing

You can always be counted on.....
i just hope we add enough talent at wr that if williams doesnt have an amazing tc and preseason that we can cut his ass and his team the nyg pick him up and give him a ring he deserves if they win the sb they dont belong in
  • mike
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,827
I don't like the option "he is the best", leaves no middle ground. Of course he's not "the best", he hasn't proven anything in this league and had one horrible game.

I think what kyle williams is is cheap, solid young depth. I can't judge him for that one horrible game the way I'd judge michael crabtree or someone like that thats played a few years as a core starting player. Yes we need guys to fill in for injured players, and yes it hurts to have an inexperienced player make game-losing mistakes, but from a cost vs reward perspective there simply is no reason to not let this guy have another chance to fight for a roster spot in training camp. That doesn't mean you don't try to get new talent to compete with him but just cutting him outright? What kind of message does that give to your players that a few bad plays in one game means you're getting cut?

Anyone who absolutely must see him gone is speaking from emotion instead of logic. If he's a strong player he will emerge from this an even stronger player, if he doesn't win a spot on the roster then he doesn't win a spot. But cutting him is just lowering the level of competition for whoever else is fighting to make the squad.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by KEGster:
MY QUESTION

Why was Kyle switching ball hands on that final return? There was absolutely no running lane for him. If I remember correctly there were like 2 defenders and blockers ahead so he must have known he was about to get smashed

SO. Did he switch ball hands because he was trying to juke out of a hard hit....because of concussions in the past? This is a valid question IMO and I don't like having a playing with these surrounding questions of health. A backup atleast

Because you are taught at a very young age to switch the ball to the outside arm when you nare running. It's ingrained in you very, very early. Thats what he was doing. It probably wasn't even a conscious thing. Thats just what you do.

No, he was not "switching the ball to the outside arm." He started out with it like a clueless bachelor holding a baby out in front of him, and as the Giants player (Williams) approached, THEN Kyle Williams went to tuck it in...but to his RIGHT arm, which was the same side as Giants player. I've been a youth football coach for many years, and more important that inside/outside arm is a strong ball/arm/body weld, 3 solid points of contact, and the 4th point of contact (off hand covering ball) when you enter traffic. We typically only stress inside/outside as it pertains to the sideline, since obviously if you have it in outside arm against the sideline and it gets punched out, there's a good chance it will go out of bounds.
[ Edited by DelCed2486 on Jan 27, 2012 at 3:01 PM ]
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by KEGster:
MY QUESTION

Why was Kyle switching ball hands on that final return? There was absolutely no running lane for him. If I remember correctly there were like 2 defenders and blockers ahead so he must have known he was about to get smashed

SO. Did he switch ball hands because he was trying to juke out of a hard hit....because of concussions in the past? This is a valid question IMO and I don't like having a playing with these surrounding questions of health. A backup atleast

Because you are taught at a very young age to switch the ball to the outside arm when you nare running. It's ingrained in you very, very early. Thats what he was doing. It probably wasn't even a conscious thing. Thats just what you do.

No, he was not "switching the ball to the outside arm." He started out with it like a clueless bachelor holding a baby out in front of him, and as the Giants player (Williams) approached, THEN Kyle Williams went to tuck it in...but to his RIGHT arm, which was the same side as Giants player. I've been a youth football coach for many years, and more important that inside/outside arm is a strong ball/arm/body weld, 3 solid points of contact, and the 4th point of contact (off hand covering ball) when you enter traffic. We typically only stress inside/outside as it pertains to the sideline, since obviously if you have it in outside arm against the sideline and it gets punched out, there's a good chance it will go out of bounds.

Sigh.

We'll agree to disagree.
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by KEGster:
MY QUESTION

Why was Kyle switching ball hands on that final return? There was absolutely no running lane for him. If I remember correctly there were like 2 defenders and blockers ahead so he must have known he was about to get smashed

SO. Did he switch ball hands because he was trying to juke out of a hard hit....because of concussions in the past? This is a valid question IMO and I don't like having a playing with these surrounding questions of health. A backup atleast

Because you are taught at a very young age to switch the ball to the outside arm when you nare running. It's ingrained in you very, very early. Thats what he was doing. It probably wasn't even a conscious thing. Thats just what you do.

No, he was not "switching the ball to the outside arm." He started out with it like a clueless bachelor holding a baby out in front of him, and as the Giants player (Williams) approached, THEN Kyle Williams went to tuck it in...but to his RIGHT arm, which was the same side as Giants player. I've been a youth football coach for many years, and more important that inside/outside arm is a strong ball/arm/body weld, 3 solid points of contact, and the 4th point of contact (off hand covering ball) when you enter traffic. We typically only stress inside/outside as it pertains to the sideline, since obviously if you have it in outside arm against the sideline and it gets punched out, there's a good chance it will go out of bounds.

Yeah I have no idea WTF the guy was thinking. He obviously left his brain in the pre game locker room

3 Things
- Is he just not a very mentally smart player
- Is he scared of getting hit hard/concussed?
- Is he a wannabe hero?


Pretty straight forward