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Assessing Receivers and the OL: We NEED Upgrades

Originally posted by Evilgenius:
If Morgan is healthy he's probably our best all around receiver. Before he got hurt he was on pace for a really good year. He's got the physical tools, has more reliable hands than Crabtree and is an excellent blocker. Very good RAC. He gets a lot of hate around here for reasons unknown to me.

Not sure if this is true but I think you make some good points here. He is certainly a very solid player who would make a terrific number 3 receiver. Crabtree has shown this year that he is the primary possession guy (and is getting better all the time) but the Niners are still lacking that stud number one guy, especially in the red zone and on key third downs.

Morgan's loss has certainly been big though. I think he could have helped a lot in the red zone. Seems like he is recovering well though so I'm Iooking forward to seeing what he can do next year.

Cheers!
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
To me fixing the WRs is easy lol just sign Bowe. He's a great WR. Pair him next to Crabs watch out!
I love Crabs as the number one he's like VD he can ball he just needs the damn ball.

Crabs #1
Bowe #2
Jmo/Kwill #3
Jmo/ Kwill #4
Teddy Ginn #5 ( situation threat)

To me that's a pretty decent lineup

I just don't know how easy it'll be to sign someone like that. Sure we look like a much more attractive option now that we're contenders, but can we afford him?

We already plan to extend Smith, so some money is gone there, and then we have a bunch of FA's that would be really nice to have back, such as:

OLB Ahmad Brooks
FS Goldson
CB Rogers
WR Morgan
WR Ginn
TE Walker
LB Costanzo
LB Grant
OG Snyder

Would not be surprised to see Grant go start somewhere else (he started in STL), and we might let Snyder walk (although I wouldn't care at all about that one. We've got developing guys and draft picks. Plus Chilo should be gone.) But still, about 6-7 of those players in that list are guys we definitely should hang onto. Bowe is going to want a BIG contract I'm sure, and there's no guarantee the Chiefs wouldn't franchise him.

Excellent points Clock... The Niners are going to face some tough decisions in the off-season for sure. To me, resigning Rogers is an absolute must and the special teams guys (Ginn and Costanzo) need to be resigned too. Morgan has already said he is likely returning.

The team will not be able to sign all of the guys on your list undoubtedly but one thing they have going for them is Harbaugh and his coaching staff. A lot of NFL guys are going to want to play for the Niners now...and that is a great thing!

Would love to sign Bowe but I agree, he will probably be franchised by KC... There are some other options and Baalke certainly showed he could be creative this past off-season so I'm optimistic they will have a replacement for Edwards next year...by hook or by crook...

Cheers!
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
To me fixing the WRs is easy lol just sign Bowe. He's a great WR. Pair him next to Crabs watch out!
I love Crabs as the number one he's like VD he can ball he just needs the damn ball.

Crabs #1
Bowe #2
Jmo/Kwill #3
Jmo/ Kwill #4
Teddy Ginn #5 ( situation threat)

To me that's a pretty decent lineup

I just don't know how easy it'll be to sign someone like that. Sure we look like a much more attractive option now that we're contenders, but can we afford him?

We already plan to extend Smith, so some money is gone there, and then we have a bunch of FA's that would be really nice to have back, such as:

OLB Ahmad Brooks
FS Goldson
CB Rogers
WR Morgan
WR Ginn
TE Walker
LB Costanzo
LB Grant
OG Snyder

Would not be surprised to see Grant go start somewhere else (he started in STL), and we might let Snyder walk (although I wouldn't care at all about that one. We've got developing guys and draft picks. Plus Chilo should be gone.) But still, about 6-7 of those players in that list are guys we definitely should hang onto. Bowe is going to want a BIG contract I'm sure, and there's no guarantee the Chiefs wouldn't franchise him.

Excellent points Clock... The Niners are going to face some tough decisions in the off-season for sure. To me, resigning Rogers is an absolute must and the special teams guys (Ginn and Costanzo) need to be resigned too. Morgan has already said he is likely returning.

The team will not be able to sign all of the guys on your list undoubtedly but one thing they have going for them is Harbaugh and his coaching staff. A lot of NFL guys are going to want to play for the Niners now...and that is a great thing!

Would love to sign Bowe but I agree, he will probably be franchised by KC... There are some other options and Baalke certainly showed he could be creative this past off-season so I'm optimistic they will have a replacement for Edwards next year...by hook or by crook...

Cheers!

I think the 4 most likely to leave are:

Brooks - May look for a payday from another contending team.
Snyder - We may opt to let him walk if we have faith in our developing youngsters.
Goldson - Simply may not be able to afford him after earning Pro Bowl credentials.
Grant - Will a starting caliber player want to continue to back-up Willis and Bowman and play ST's? Probably not.
An upgrade at QB would make the O-line and Wr's look better, Alex is fine for now, but anyone who thinks we have found our franchise is fooling themselves, Alex is better than average but we need hold to a higher standard.
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
An upgrade at QB would make the O-line and Wr's look better, Alex is fine for now, but anyone who thinks we have found our franchise is fooling themselves, Alex is better than average but we need hold to a higher standard.

higher than average after 1 year with no offseason


what arguement is there he wont get better with a full offseason?

especially when everyone who previously taught him said in order for him to be an elite qb he needs to learn the system thouroughlt before he goes out an plays

(also lets not forget what montana said earlier that WCO usually takes 2 years to learn anyway)
Right now Crabtree is the only WR we have that have the all around game. A combination of size, good speed, blocking, and hands. Morgan is another one. The rest are role player type of receivers. Both Ginn and Williams are fast, but lack the size. We need another guy with combination mentioned to round out the corps. Braylon was supposed to be the other one but that didn't work out. We just need 1 more to be really good. I like Ginn and Williams and think they can improved but not sure that they can do the overall job.

We definitely need another center next year. Goodwin is experienced but old. I think we can keep Synder at guard the rest of the way and into next year. The reason they didn't put him into any particular position was because he was so versatile as a backup. I think it's time to end that and just leave at guard. Draft another 'versatile' guy to be a backup or UFA. Or just draft a Guard and have Synder back into the backup role again. I'm good with either way. But the Chilo has to go. There's no point in keeping Chilo.
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on Jan 6, 2012 at 7:58 AM ]
I am sure Harbaugh will address this in free agency!!!!
As a fan, this OL is very hard to analyze because there are so many questions:

Is this a complicated blocking scheme and the young guys need more time? Did the coaches simplify the scheme and the players are just flat out failing? Are the tackles having issues having to compensate for the raw guards or vice versa? Is Goodwin messing up the line calls? Why did Staley get voted into the pro bowl? Which players are actually good?

It's enough to make your head spin.

As for the WRs, that can be a good group next year. All of them will be healthy and they will have a full year in the system and with the same qb. A true all pro would be nice, but it's not a bad group.
I think Bowe is a more solid possibilty than you might believe. The WR class in free agency is potentially going to be huge. V.Jackson, Wayne, Bowe, an Deshaun are all heavly rummored to be allowed to walk next season for varying reasons. Making the market buyer friendly. Goldson has a decent nubmer if we tag him, and of the remaining guys only Rogers is in line for a major pay raise, and if anybody gets too big headed and wants more than they are worth all the others but Alex are easily replaceable. Nobody on that list is such an overwhelming talent that we cant get by or even get better with another free agent or top 3 draft pick. I think we should address WR with either Bowe or V Jack if we can land them, then go CB and interior line early in the draft. Franchise Goldson and resign Carlos and and Alex....let the chips fall where they may for the rest...I have faith our front office can find the next man up.
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
An upgrade at QB would make the O-line and Wr's look better, Alex is fine for now, but anyone who thinks we have found our franchise is fooling themselves, Alex is better than average but we need hold to a higher standard.

higher than average after 1 year with no offseason


what arguement is there he wont get better with a full offseason?

especially when everyone who previously taught him said in order for him to be an elite qb he needs to learn the system thouroughlt before he goes out an plays

(also lets not forget what montana said earlier that WCO usually takes 2 years to learn anyway)

The only problem I see, is this Alex has a very average arm. Now having an average arm is not a deal breaker, Joe Montana did very well with an average NFL arm. Joe made up for it with accuracy, anticipation, and confidence. Confidence and anticipation is where I see the problem. JH and Alex are a great combo, but JH does not encourage risk taking. Alex does not and never will have cannon of an arm, he is what he is. Alex is coached to only make the safe throws, with out a big arm and lacking in anticipation, Alex will never be a great QB. If JH can teach Alex to have better anticipation, perhaps he will develop more confidence. I for one am okay with Alex at the helm, but it would be foolish not to keep looking for the next great QB.
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
An upgrade at QB would make the O-line and Wr's look better, Alex is fine for now, but anyone who thinks we have found our franchise is fooling themselves, Alex is better than average but we need hold to a higher standard.

higher than average after 1 year with no offseason


what arguement is there he wont get better with a full offseason?

especially when everyone who previously taught him said in order for him to be an elite qb he needs to learn the system thouroughlt before he goes out an plays

(also lets not forget what montana said earlier that WCO usually takes 2 years to learn anyway)

The only problem I see, is this Alex has a very average arm. Now having an average arm is not a deal breaker, Joe Montana did very well with an average NFL arm. Joe made up for it with accuracy, anticipation, and confidence. Confidence and anticipation is where I see the problem. JH and Alex are a great combo, but JH does not encourage risk taking. Alex does not and never will have cannon of an arm, he is what he is. Alex is coached to only make the safe throws, with out a big arm and lacking in anticipation, Alex will never be a great QB. If JH can teach Alex to have better anticipation, perhaps he will develop more confidence. I for one am okay with Alex at the helm, but it would be foolish not to keep looking for the next great QB.

Please, folks, let's not derail this into an Alex Smith thread!
This is what I'm trying to avoid. We all know a better QB would make the other units looks at least marginally "less bad" or however you want to phrase it, but the fact of the matter is, we are looking at these units irrespective of QB play.

When you do that, and view them separately, and see my analysis given, it's clear we need upgrades to support our offense, no matter who is behind center. We need to protect every QB, elite or not. (Regardless, elite QB's neither grow on trees nor do they just fall in your lap with ease either.) And we need to bolster our receiving talent if we want to become an even more dominant and dynamic offense like Green Bay, New England, and New Orleans. We need guys that can catch short passes and take them to the house on any given play. We need guys that are nearly unstoppable and almost indefensible in the redzone.

Again, what better way to support your QB on offense, whether it's a guy like Brady, Alex Smith, or a young gun like Kaepernick waiting in the wings, than to build up the offense around him so that you build yourself a collectively DOMINANT unit as a whole.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Jan 6, 2012 at 8:08 AM ]
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Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by GorefullBore:
I think Dwight Jones or Peter Konz would do nicely for what we need. Shoot, if things roll our way we could have Jones and Konz, but that is probably unlikely.

i dont get the need for konz or any C we have goodwon hes been solid for us and is riding a 3 year contract

just get one down the road or one later in the draft to develop
also if im not mistaken dont we have a C in PS that played for stanford?

he's one of the better C prospects that has come out the past few years

Goodwin is not a long term answer

Better than the Pouncey twins who just came out the last two years? The Steelers Pouncey made the pro bowl in his rookie year.
Originally posted by Evilgenius:
If Morgan is healthy he's probably our best all around receiver. Before he got hurt he was on pace for a really good year. He's got the physical tools, has more reliable hands than Crabtree and is an excellent blocker. Very good RAC. He gets a lot of hate around here for reasons unknown to me.

You are right about RAC and I love Morgan but he was on pace for 48 catches, 704 yards, decent on this team right now, but not elite by any standard. Crabtree wound up with 72 for 874, so Morgan had much better YAC (if my math is correct). Morgan's YPC is 14.7, which is up there and this is one reason he was missed greatly by Smith. Doubt that Morgan would be a #1 receiver on many teams.

Originally posted by 12b6demurrer:
Yeah. I think Ginn is expendable if Williams can stay healthy to be honest. Williams can do what Ginn does and more - he can go vertical, do underneath routes, return if we need him to...although I personally don't want him to because of the injury risk.

I would like to think this is true to save a WR spot, but who would be the reliable returner? With Ginn back there I never worried about a return. The area where Ginn really excels is decision making. Early on he had a couple of mistakes by running backwards and losing yards but then he stopped that and he always seemed to gain good yardage or let the ball go. This is extremely important for a team like the 9ers that depends on field position.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
You are right about RAC and I love Morgan but he was on pace for 48 catches, 704 yards, decent on this team right now, but not elite by any standard. Crabtree wound up with 72 for 874, so Morgan had much better YAC (if my math is correct). Morgan's YPC is 14.7, which is up there and this is one reason he was missed greatly by Smith. Doubt that Morgan would be a #1 receiver on many teams.


I would like to think this is true to save a WR spot, but who would be the reliable returner? With Ginn back there I never worried about a return. The area where Ginn really excels is decision making. Early on he had a couple of mistakes by running backwards and losing yards but then he stopped that and he always seemed to gain good yardage or let the ball go. This is extremely important for a team like the 9ers that depends on field position.

morgan got injured beofre we could really open up our offense

and agree on ginn
I too would like to discussed these issues of need without throwing Smith into this. There's a Smith thread that is talk aplenty about Smith. Really like to talk about the other 2/3 part of the passing game. And I really don't want to include VD or D. Walker into this since they aren't full time WR, though they may run some routes downfield.