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vernon davis jumping on deep pass routes

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.


There is some truth to what you say. Smith was very dependent on VD and Morgan last year and had a very good QBR with the two. He developed a decent rapport with Edwards who was then injured. Now he was working on a rapport with Williams who is now injured. Crabtree has started slowly for three straight years but comes on toward the end of the season.

I have not bothered to do an exhaustive search, but the WRs I've checked out who are helping Rodgers, Brees, and Brady have been playing with them for some time and have built a rapport. You seem to skip over this every time I've mentioned it. Do you underestimate the value of practicing together? Williams was probably on the third string during the abbreviated TC so how many reps do you suppose he had with Smith? Would be interesting to chart the WRs available each week this year to see that stability versus other teams. If I have a windfall of time I'll do a comparison.

I agree with Shaj that you tend to make efforts to be unbiased. I just happen to disagree with your perceptions of Smith's ability.


Did I really say I agreed with Shaj on something in this thread?

I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.


There is some truth to what you say. Smith was very dependent on VD and Morgan last year and had a very good QBR with the two. He developed a decent rapport with Edwards who was then injured. Now he was working on a rapport with Williams who is now injured. Crabtree has started slowly for three straight years but comes on toward the end of the season.

I have not bothered to do an exhaustive search, but the WRs I've checked out who are helping Rodgers, Brees, and Brady have been playing with them for some time and have built a rapport. You seem to skip over this every time I've mentioned it. Do you underestimate the value of practicing together? Williams was probably on the third string during the abbreviated TC so how many reps do you suppose he had with Smith? Would be interesting to chart the WRs available each week this year to see that stability versus other teams. If I have a windfall of time I'll do a comparison.

I agree with Shaj that you tend to make efforts to be unbiased. I just happen to disagree with your perceptions of Smith's ability.


Did I really say I agreed with Shaj on something in this thread?

I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.

Look at Alex with a healthy Crabtree, and Morgan was on pace to have a breakout year before he got hurt. Kyle Williams was also doing great before his injury as well.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Shaj:
If VD played for Brees, Manning, or Rodgers his whole career, I have no doubt he'd be a perennial probowler and widely considered the best TE in the league.


I'll bet if he has Smith as a QB he would have been in the Pro Bowl in 2009...oh, wait! That was in the Raye offense...whahoo! I'll bet if he has Smith as his QB in 2010 he would have had more yards than all but one TE...oh, wait!

VD hasn't suffered playing with Smith, they are in sync. This year he blocked more than in the past and I'm not sure even Rodgers could have completed many passes to a blocker.

Well he did also have Shaun Hill throwing him some TD passes that year.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.


There is some truth to what you say. Smith was very dependent on VD and Morgan last year and had a very good QBR with the two. He developed a decent rapport with Edwards who was then injured. Now he was working on a rapport with Williams who is now injured. Crabtree has started slowly for three straight years but comes on toward the end of the season.

I have not bothered to do an exhaustive search, but the WRs I've checked out who are helping Rodgers, Brees, and Brady have been playing with them for some time and have built a rapport. You seem to skip over this every time I've mentioned it. Do you underestimate the value of practicing together? Williams was probably on the third string during the abbreviated TC so how many reps do you suppose he had with Smith? Would be interesting to chart the WRs available each week this year to see that stability versus other teams. If I have a windfall of time I'll do a comparison.

I agree with Shaj that you tend to make efforts to be unbiased. I just happen to disagree with your perceptions of Smith's ability.


Did I really say I agreed with Shaj on something in this thread?

I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.

imo it isnt time

the problem is VD is constantly being doubled on all the teams you mentioned they haev at least 1 or 2 WR that can constantly take advantage of the one on one

till recently (because of crabs injury) we had none

in last 5 games VD is averaging 6-7 receptions while averaging just under 70 yards


next year crabs (hopefully) will be healthy the whole season and we will add another legit target and get morgan back


look at the numbers when morgan was healthy

5 receptions per game averaging 56 yards a game over 4 games


clearly his bad strech this year was when both crabs and morgan were unhealthy at the same time


we just simply didnt have anywhere to go
Originally posted by Joecool:
I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.


Brees was 27 years old and had been very successful in SD. He had the confidence from winning that gave him cache with his team mates. He also had Colson, Bush two rookies who went on to be two of the best receivers at their positions. He also had more than five veteran receivers on the team who contributed to his success.

Compare Smith at the same age: no success in the past, not one receiver who has been healthy and on the team all year, his favorite target (VD) used for blocking much of the time, his second favorite target (Morgan) out for the year, Edwards imploding, Ginn actually rising above expectations...then injured, Williams coming on as a rookie...then injured.

You can hardly ignore the differences in support between the two...and then there is the line play...ouch!

Edit: forgot the main point--experience between receiver and QB is an important element, not the only one. If Smith had a few receivers who had been successful veterans for a number of years do you think it would help him or hurt him?
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Jan 3, 2012 at 12:26 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.


Brees was 27 years old and had been very successful in SD. He had the confidence from winning that gave him cache with his team mates. He also had Colson, Bush two rookies who went on to be two of the best receivers at their positions. He also had more than five veteran receivers on the team who contributed to his success.

Compare Smith at the same age: no success in the past, not one receiver who has been healthy and on the team all year, his favorite target (VD) used for blocking much of the time, his second favorite target (Morgan) out for the year, Edwards imploding, Ginn actually rising above expectations...then injured, Williams coming on as a rookie...then injured.

You can hardly ignore the differences in support between the two...and then there is the line play...ouch!

Edit: forgot the main point--experience between receiver and QB is an important element, not the only one. If Smith had a few receivers who had been successful veterans for a number of years do you think it would help him or hurt him?

This has been explained to the detractors numerous times. Either they just don't want to get it or they just don't get it.

We haven't had the same WR group hit the field all year and they expect them to out perform the likes of Steve Smith, Colston and many others?

That's asking a little too much from Brett Swain and Joe Hastings, hell even Kyle Williams.
[ Edited by gamechanger on Jan 3, 2012 at 12:35 PM ]
what about that useless stinger splash into the endzone awhile back?

WTF dude just truck people, don't Wille Beamen it.
Originally posted by TonyStarks:
what about that useless stinger splash into the endzone awhile back?

WTF dude just truck people, don't Wille Beamen it.

Word.
Originally posted by Joecool:
I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.

Giving four examples and seriously thinking that it applies in EVERY case is the only thing that doesn't make sense here. But that POV is indicative of the larger thought process of this board. For some reason, a lot of you guys seem convinced that if something happens once (or a few times) in the NFL then the 49ers should be able to replicate that same event in EVERY instance without fail.

Which simply isn't realistic.
[ Edited by baltien on Jan 3, 2012 at 12:57 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.


Brees was 27 years old and had been very successful in SD. He had the confidence from winning that gave him cache with his team mates. He also had Colson, Bush two rookies who went on to be two of the best receivers at their positions. He also had more than five veteran receivers on the team who contributed to his success.

Compare Smith at the same age: no success in the past, not one receiver who has been healthy and on the team all year, his favorite target (VD) used for blocking much of the time, his second favorite target (Morgan) out for the year, Edwards imploding, Ginn actually rising above expectations...then injured, Williams coming on as a rookie...then injured.

You can hardly ignore the differences in support between the two...and then there is the line play...ouch!

Edit: forgot the main point--experience between receiver and QB is an important element, not the only one. If Smith had a few receivers who had been successful veterans for a number of years do you think it would help him or hurt him?

So how does that explain the better QB's with first year WR's or WR's they never worked with before?

49ers don't have the greatest talent at WR, but we do have a lot of talent overall at the position. We also have a running game where teams play 8 or 9 in the box. That makes it even easier to pass. Drew Brees has been playing extremely well since his 2nd year in the league. He also went through OC turnover and Head Coach turnover in his first 4 years.
Originally posted by Joecool:
So how does that explain the better QB's with first year WR's or WR's they never worked with before?

49ers don't have the greatest talent at WR, but we do have a lot of talent overall at the position. We also have a running game where teams play 8 or 9 in the box. That makes it even easier to pass. Drew Brees has been playing extremely well since his 2nd year in the league. He also went through OC turnover and Head Coach turnover in his first 4 years.

the problem is VD is constantly being doubled on all the teams you mentioned they haev at least 1 or 2 WR that can constantly take advantage of the one on one till recently (because of crabs injury) we had none in last 5 games VD is averaging 6-7 receptions while averaging just under 70 yards next year crabs (hopefully) will be healthy the whole season and we will add another legit target and get morgan back look at the numbers when morgan was healthy 5 receptions per game averaging 56 yards a game over 4 games clearly his bad strech this year was when both crabs and morgan were unhealthy at the same time
Originally posted by Joecool:
So how does that explain the better QB's with first year WR's or WR's they never worked with before?

49ers don't have the greatest talent at WR, but we do have a lot of talent overall at the position. We also have a running game where teams play 8 or 9 in the box. That makes it even easier to pass. Drew Brees has been playing extremely well since his 2nd year in the league. He also went through OC turnover and Head Coach turnover in his first 4 years.

Saying Brees played "extremely well" since his second year is stretching it. Drew Brees didn't really start lighting it up until year four. Before then, his numbers were pretty pedestrian. Have a look:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/2580/drew-brees
[ Edited by baltien on Jan 3, 2012 at 1:01 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.


Brees was 27 years old and had been very successful in SD. He had the confidence from winning that gave him cache with his team mates. He also had Colson, Bush two rookies who went on to be two of the best receivers at their positions. He also had more than five veteran receivers on the team who contributed to his success.

Compare Smith at the same age: no success in the past, not one receiver who has been healthy and on the team all year, his favorite target (VD) used for blocking much of the time, his second favorite target (Morgan) out for the year, Edwards imploding, Ginn actually rising above expectations...then injured, Williams coming on as a rookie...then injured.

You can hardly ignore the differences in support between the two...and then there is the line play...ouch!

Edit: forgot the main point--experience between receiver and QB is an important element, not the only one. If Smith had a few receivers who had been successful veterans for a number of years do you think it would help him or hurt him?

So how does that explain the better QB's with first year WR's or WR's they never worked with before?

49ers don't have the greatest talent at WR, but we do have a lot of talent overall at the position. We also have a running game where teams play 8 or 9 in the box. That makes it even easier to pass. Drew Brees has been playing extremely well since his 2nd year in the league. He also went through OC turnover and Head Coach turnover in his first 4 years.

They've been F'n INJURED. It's been proven that even an injured Calvin Johnson has done way better than any of our WRs with Shuan Hill throwing to him. Look at his 2010 stats. Our guys aren't the greatest talent like you said but add a injury to that and you get very poor results.
Originally posted by Joecool:
So how does that explain the better QB's with first year WR's or WR's they never worked with before?

49ers don't have the greatest talent at WR, but we do have a lot of talent overall at the position. We also have a running game where teams play 8 or 9 in the box. That makes it even easier to pass. Drew Brees has been playing extremely well since his 2nd year in the league. He also went through OC turnover and Head Coach turnover in his first 4 years.

This is a case by case situation but there are factors that involve Smith's limitations and that don't. For instance, QBs who have exceedingly strong arms can wait a bit longer for their guys to come open. This may be a big factor in helping young talented receivers succeed. On the other hand, if a team has been set for some years they can welcome a young guy in and include him with the vets.

Cruz (2nd year) is a good example of a young guy being successful. UDFA did not play much in 2010 due to hamstring. Why has he succeeded? Eli has been in the system for years with the same coach, a young burner comes in and does well in his second year. Who is Smith's Cruz? Williams? He didn't even get to the second team until injuries moved him up and now he is injured.

To put this in perspective, Jerry Rice was drafted 16th overall and caught 8 passes his first 8 games...not per game, but total. He finished with 49 total catches playing with the best QB in history. That was a great first year for a WR in those days but he was criticized for drops and lack of production. Every picture (or player) has a story.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
So how does that explain the better QB's with first year WR's or WR's they never worked with before?

49ers don't have the greatest talent at WR, but we do have a lot of talent overall at the position. We also have a running game where teams play 8 or 9 in the box. That makes it even easier to pass. Drew Brees has been playing extremely well since his 2nd year in the league. He also went through OC turnover and Head Coach turnover in his first 4 years.

This is a case by case situation but there are factors that involve Smith's limitations and that don't. For instance, QBs who have exceedingly strong arms can wait a bit longer for their guys to come open. This may be a big factor in helping young talented receivers succeed. On the other hand, if a team has been set for some years they can welcome a young guy in and include him with the vets.

Cruz (2nd year) is a good example of a young guy being successful. UDFA did not play much in 2010 due to hamstring. Why has he succeeded? Eli has been in the system for years with the same coach, a young burner comes in and does well in his second year. Who is Smith's Cruz? Williams? He didn't even get to the second team until injuries moved him up and now he is injured.

To put this in perspective, Jerry Rice was drafted 16th overall and caught 8 passes his first 8 games...not per game, but total. He finished with 49 total catches playing with the best QB in history. That was a great first year for a WR in those days but he was criticized for drops and lack of production. Every picture (or player) has a story.

Williams has Cruz-like talent. If he were on another team and used as an example of another QB doing well with him, the excuse would be that look at how good that team's WR's are in that Williams wasn't even able to crack the starting roster until injuries bumped him up.

To another post above about 1 or 2 WR's along with a TE. Brees only had Gates and 1 other slightly above average TE early on but he produced. Alex has had Vernon + another 1000+ WR but ALL of them suddenly diminished while Smith was their QB. I have listed the WR's who got 1000 yards the year prior to working with Alex Smith.

Also consider Delanie Walker, the brain of our receivers/tight ends. A coach like Belichick with Tom Brady would do wonders with this kid and his smarts. Harbaugh used him as a very effective key cog in our offense. Some of you only see their stats but don't see how dangerous these guys are or can be. To me, Alex is the only one holding these guys back as the evidence has been there every year with the actual talent around him.

Calvin Johnson? Why didn't Shaun Hill do with Calvin that Stafford did? Why did Hill only equal his stats he had with the 49ers with Calvin? QB's need to get the ball to, I can't stress this more, an NFL open receiver. Alex does not.