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Aldon Smith vs Oher

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Actually, he's not schizo, he's twins.

Obviously.

How else can anyone explain how he's been able to lift the entire Houston defense and elevate it all alone, without help from anyone?

Answer: there's really two of him. (Given your mancrush on the guy, you undoubtedly already knew this.)

One of him is on the sidelines, doing all that stuff BrianGo insists that Aldon Smith must learn, while the other one of him is on the field.

When he gets tired, then he comes in for himself.

Hard to know how he's going to divide that DROY award that you've already given him, tho. Prolly 50/50, or maybe 40/40 and 20% for the dog.

Cheeers.

Nice cover. I am going to guess that you didn't know his last name had four letters.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Many of you are stating what I am saying, that while Aldon has great potential, and has produced well as a backup, he is not at this stage a great player, and unworthy of the mountain of accolades thrown at him by many board members. If he was tremendous right now, he would be starting. The excitement is based on potential, not making a marked difference for a team right now, as in the cases of Miller, Kerrigan, Watt, and others who are starting and changing the face of their team's defense.

I mean, how many "Will Aldon get 20+ sacks?" and "Smith DROY" like threads can be tossed on the board.

hasn't been any of those in awhile. this thread started simply as a discussion about a single play in a single game.
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by danimal:
Remember when many of us wanted Bowman to get more PT just for the sake of his development. We should feel the same about Aldon

but maybe Bowman's success has come because he was brought along slowly over his rookie year, in which case we should do exactly what we did with him with Aldon.

I don't know about this comparison; there were not a few webzoners who wanted to see Bowman on the bench because of missed assignments and missed tackles last year, complaining that this that and the other would not be happening if Takeo could play all three days and not be gassed. His performance in just two seasons is like night and day; at least Aldon has been impressive in his limited time. A show of hands for people who thought Bowman would be outplaying Patrick Willis?



Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by danimal:
Remember when many of us wanted Bowman to get more PT just for the sake of his development. We should feel the same about Aldon

but maybe Bowman's success has come because he was brought along slowly over his rookie year, in which case we should do exactly what we did with him with Aldon.

Originally posted by Eskendale:
I don't know about this comparison; there were not a few webzoners who wanted to see Bowman on the bench because of missed assignments and missed tackles last year, complaining that this that and the other would not be happening if Takeo could play all three days and not be gassed. His performance in just two seasons is like night and day; at least Aldon has been impressive in his limited time. A show of hands for people who thought Bowman would be outplaying Patrick Willis?

yeah, my point was really just that certain comparisons don't always hold up. I don't think anyone expected Bowman to be playing like he is, and I think most people here were happy with Spikes' play overall. IDK. I just think saying that because some people might have pushed for Bowman last year and he's playing great this year as justification for giving Aldon more playing time doesn't really make sense.

If Aldon does in year 2 what Bowman is doing in his year 2, my god, we're going to go undefeated.
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I don't know about this comparison; there were not a few webzoners who wanted to see Bowman on the bench because of missed assignments and missed tackles last year, complaining that this that and the other would not be happening if Takeo could play all three days and not be gassed. His performance in just two seasons is like night and day; at least Aldon has been impressive in his limited time. A show of hands for people who thought Bowman would be outplaying Patrick Willis?

yeah, my point was really just that certain comparisons don't always hold up. I don't think anyone expected Bowman to be playing like he is, and I think most people here were happy with Spikes' play overall. IDK. I just think saying that because some people might have pushed for Bowman last year and he's playing great this year as justification for giving Aldon more playing time doesn't really make sense.

If Aldon does in year 2 what Bowman is doing in his year 2, my god, we're going to go undefeated.

Yeah, I agree with your point totally.

If we Aldon drinks whatever Bowman drank before this season, we'd truly be unstoppable next year.
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Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Many of you are stating what I am saying, that while Aldon has great potential, and has produced well as a backup, he is not at this stage a great player, and unworthy of the mountain of accolades thrown at him by many board members. If he was tremendous right now, he would be starting. The excitement is based on potential, not making a marked difference for a team right now, as in the cases of Miller, Kerrigan, Watt, and others who are starting and changing the face of their team's defense.

I mean, how many "Will Aldon get 20+ sacks?" and "Smith DROY" like threads can be tossed on the board.
lol, u mad dog?
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I don't know about this comparison; there were not a few webzoners who wanted to see Bowman on the bench because of missed assignments and missed tackles last year, complaining that this that and the other would not be happening if Takeo could play all three days and not be gassed. His performance in just two seasons is like night and day; at least Aldon has been impressive in his limited time. A show of hands for people who thought Bowman would be outplaying Patrick Willis?

He's playing very well but he hasn't been outplaying Willis.
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I don't know about this comparison; there were not a few webzoners who wanted to see Bowman on the bench because of missed assignments and missed tackles last year, complaining that this that and the other would not be happening if Takeo could play all three days and not be gassed. His performance in just two seasons is like night and day; at least Aldon has been impressive in his limited time. A show of hands for people who thought Bowman would be outplaying Patrick Willis?

Bowman is playing well but you can't judge a player merely by stats--tackles for instance. Willis is a monster still and he has been hitting people hard. Bowman is extremely good and his range is as good as Willis but he is not the enforcer. Willis has always amazed me by hitting hard while using excellent technique. I forgot the player he hit in Baltimore...might have been Rice...but the player knew he had been hit and no doubt wanted to count his teeth, and yet it was just a good clean tackle.

As far as wanting to see Bowman play more last year, it was a double edge sword as TKO was doing very well particularly against the pass. Bowman looked lost at times and was slow getting to the play...but everyone could see that Bowman was the future within a year or two.

Edit: These two guys have to be the best tackling duo in the NFL. They just don't miss and always wrap up. Just fun to watch. I think they push everyone on the D to tackle better.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Nov 30, 2011 at 9:15 PM ]
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I don't know about this comparison; there were not a few webzoners who wanted to see Bowman on the bench because of missed assignments and missed tackles last year, complaining that this that and the other would not be happening if Takeo could play all three days and not be gassed. His performance in just two seasons is like night and day; at least Aldon has been impressive in his limited time. A show of hands for people who thought Bowman would be outplaying Patrick Willis?

He's playing very well but he hasn't been outplaying Willis.

There have been a number of games where Bowman outplayed him; I used hyperbole because the mere thought of an inside linebacker outplaying Willis would've have been considered blasphemy before this year. For the year, Willis has been doing very well as usual, but Bowman's performance level is pretty damn near close.
Originally posted by Eskendale:
There have been a number of games where Bowman outplayed him; I used hyperbole because the mere thought of an inside linebacker outplaying Willis would've have been considered blasphemy before this year. For the year, Willis has been doing very well as usual, but Bowman's performance level is pretty damn near close.

Yes there have been games where you could say Bowman outplayed Willis but overall Willis is still the much better player. He's been asked to play a lot more in coverage this year and area where Bowman is FAR behind Patrick. But other than that they pretty much take turns getting big tackles. Very happy with both guys and I hope they keep pushing each other to get better.
Originally posted by genus49:
Yes there have been games where you could say Bowman outplayed Willis but overall Willis is still the much better player. He's been asked to play a lot more in coverage this year and area where Bowman is FAR behind Patrick. But other than that they pretty much take turns getting big tackles. Very happy with both guys and I hope they keep pushing each other to get better.


Agree with this but still would rather be tackled by Bowman than Willis...not that I plan on either eventuality!
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Actually, he's not schizo, he's twins.

Obviously.

How else can anyone explain how he's been able to lift the entire Houston defense and elevate it all alone, without help from anyone?

Answer: there's really two of him. (Given your mancrush on the guy, you undoubtedly already knew this.)

One of him is on the sidelines, doing all that stuff BrianGo insists that Aldon Smith must learn, while the other one of him is on the field.

When he gets tired, then he comes in for himself.

Hard to know how he's going to divide that DROY award that you've already given him, tho. Prolly 50/50, or maybe 40/40 and 20% for the dog.

Cheeers.

Nice cover. I am going to guess that you didn't care that his last name had four letters.
Fixed.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Many of you are stating what I am saying, that while Aldon has great potential, and has produced well as a backup, he is not at this stage a great player, and unworthy of the mountain of accolades thrown at him by many board members. If he was tremendous right now, he would be starting. The excitement is based on potential, not making a marked difference for a team right now, as in the cases of Miller, Kerrigan, Watt, and others who are starting and changing the face of their team's defense.

I mean, how many "Will Aldon get 20+ sacks?" and "Smith DROY" like threads can be tossed on the board.
Actually, you've got it backwards.

You're just now saying what many of the rest of this board have been saying all along: Aldon Smith's got great potential (and was well worth the 7th pick).

Nobody on this board has been throwing a "mountain of accolades" at Aldon Smith. That's a gross overstatement, hyperbole compounded.

It's just another of the many straw men you so often set up so you can knock it down, and thereby belittle the "many [anonymous, non-existent] board members" you're pretending might have actually said this.

Thus you go to great extremes, and insult virtually the entire board, to try to make yourself look better, and in this case to try to backpeddle from your initial criticism of the Aldon Smith pick.

Its sad, really.

Now stop bothering me.
[ Edited by oldninerdude on Dec 1, 2011 at 9:01 AM ]
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I am not a newbie, and I have been on this forum for about six years, but my old name Stillincollege had been deleted due to inactivity with posting. No need to disqualify my statements through an inaccurate assumption :P.

It's obvious that Fangio could manufacture sacks through scheme, but I don't think that is how we need to play our defense in order to get a pass-rush at this point.

The topic was pass-rush, it wasn't overall effectiveness in our defense. I didn't mention all the forced fumbles or stoutness in run-defense that Ahmad brooks showed in coming off the bench in years past. The reason why we drafted Aldon Smith was because we wanted the anti-Manny Lawson, someone who could pass-rush. I made a direct comparison between Aldon and Ahmad because many in Ninertalk gushed over his pass-rushing ability as if he'd be the second coming of Reggie White, opining that he just needed more time on the field (whom does that remind you of?).

In the four games we had against good teams, the Lions, the Giants, the Cowboys, and Ravens, only in the Lions game could I single out Aldon as a main reason why we won. On the whole, our pass-rush failed in the other three games, where Eli beat himself, Flacco enjoyed Thanksgiving without any form of harassment, and Romo had time to carve us up. 49ers teams in the past have enjoyed sack-number inflation through playing woeful teams such as the Rams and others, but as fans we've all lamented the fact that in big games the pass-rush doesn't usually show up.

Aldon is a good player, we already agreed on the notion of giving over-excessive praise, and this is the only point that matters. In no way did I disparage our defense's performance, and my comment about Brooks had more to do with his past role as a situational pass-rusher (similar to Aldon) and how pass-rushing becomes more much difficult once you are actually a starter and start seeing double-teams here and there. Indeed, Aldon has been contributing to our overall defense, otherwise he'd be riding the bench right now. Does that make him a great role player? Absolutely. Does that make him a great player? No, because most great players play 3 downs, make sacks in the 4th quarter like a DeMarcus Ware or tips like a Justin Smith when the gas-tank is on empty; he hasn't proven any of these things yet. Aldon Smith is a block in the 49ers' victory arch right now, but not the keystone of this defense! When he warrants such status as a pass-rusher, even as a situational pass-rusher, he deserves all the praise he can get.

We are all 49ers fans here, so we hope, as homers, that Aldon will be the next best thing since sliced bread

Now THIS is more like it...great post and I apologize if I misunderstood you. Great post and points and I, obviously agree. Too much praise for Aldon but he is producing, has lots of upside, seems motivated and needs to learn how to slowly become an every-down OLB who can bring the heat! B/c you are right...starting and esp. taking every snap, double-teamed, is a totally different game so if you better develop your overall game. We haven't been winning with anything exotic esp. on defense. Its been straight up. We are the #1 defense. I certainly have my criticisms but we can all say that. Anyhow, thanks for the reply and for not taking it personally. Go Niners!
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Hey ,Command, nice post, as usual , plus liked your thots on what we learned from Balt loss and what we can do to improve/fix it. Concerning fangio, he literally gave balt the 6-10 yd space, and conceded all those passes. Still and all , it is Coach Harbaugh's team, and i suspect he has to sign off on it. If it works, fine, but in Balt game it was impossible to miss we got killed on that loose "coverage"...or non coverage if you wish. As for aldon, I know they have reasons for not playing him earlier, but the kid is getting it and will only get better sooner the more he is out there. So we have 4 guys with their hand in the dirt. So what? I think now it is a mistake not to get him as many snaps as possible, and would prefer to have him out there every snap. I know he is not a coverage guy, but when he had to , i actually think he did well. He is so fast that it seems goofy not to have him in every play.

Hey pas! Yeah, Fangio seems very fearful of the deep/big plays which is understandable in this league (e.g. PI's, getting beat for TD's, etc.). He seems to be overly concerned about speed as we've seen the secondary beat deep. I'm guessing he is asking his corners to respect speed b/c we don't have any back there? In recent weeks I've seen Rogers beat just as often as Brown and Whitner and Goldson. The goal seems to be to keep everything in front of us and tighten up in the redzone which, as we saw, lead to LONG, time-killing drives against the Ravens and a very clean jersey for Flacco.

That said, the best way to keep a QB from going deep is sacking his ass and providing constant pressure (see, Alex Smith). No matter how talented of pass rushers you have, you still need to employ exotic schemes, esp. TEAM schemes. We saw this was the Ravens, overloading sides, bringing safeties and CB pressure, pressure from the DL and LBers, moving OLB's around, on and off the line, etc.

Until we employ and similar mindset, paying straight up like this is wearing our starters out esp. guys such as Justin Smith and Ahmad Brooks who take every snap and generally garner double-blockers. Playing straight up is fine if we are winning the individual battles. But now, this late in the season, an attack-style focus from the whole TEAM needs to creep into the game plans, dictating, playing tighter up at the LOS and more physical, overloading sides, moving guys around, etc. Its safe to say we have the BASE defense down pat.


And just like offense, it's time to evolve and morph into the next level. Do we NEED to right now given the state of the playoffs? Probably not...should we start seeing more wrinkles in preparation for the playoffs? I sure hope so b/c if not, teams certainly have the recipe for success against us, IMHO.


Regarding Aldon, I would think we'll see more and more of him once we clinch the division. It's not like there is a huge drop off in the run game with him in there over Haralson and lets be real, Haralson has only 2 sacks in game one; forced a cople fumbles but lets see what our #1 draft pick has and can handle.