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Aldon Smith vs Oher

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Read any of the Niners reports and they will tell you Smith is a monster and has been since TC.

You complained that the FO neglected a OLB pass rusher and they finally got one and you would rather have a 3-4 DE? We already have two very good ones and a few solid back ups. Do we draft a MLB in the first round next year if it suits your big board? I think not.

Aldon Smith has made a dominating impact for our team just as much as Watt has for his. 3-4 OLB > 3-4 DE.

Eh, at this point, as a random team I would rather have JJ Watt than Aldon Smith, but only because you take the sure thing over the potential. Aldon Smith has greater potential in possibly the most impactful defensive position, but while he's shown signs of potential/brilliance, it's not quite there yet. So I don't think we made a bad draft choice, irrespective of need (and we had a greater need at OLB than DE), but Watt is already proving it on the field.
Originally posted by Joecool:
The Ravens neutralized Justin Smith also...that doesn't mean he's not a top DL.
And didn't Aldon Smith break Justin Smith's sack record at Missouri? (Yes, he did in his Freshman year.)

Aldon Smith is being brought along slowly by the coaching staff, but shows flashes of brilliance--like pancaking Oher on one play. He's already a force to be reckoned with by other teams' OCs, and will only improve with time and experience.

The J.J. Watts vs. Aldon Smith argument reminds me of the Carriker vs. Willis argument a couple of years ago. Now, three or four years later, we see how that turned out. So it may be a little early to crown Watts as DROY. (Which will likely go to Von Miller.)

Likewise, I don't think anyone could rationally compare J.J. Watts to Justin Smith at this point. Justin Smith provides alot more than just statistics--as seen in his game saving tackle/FF in Philly, and his pass breakup vs. NY. Those plays may go down as a single statistic--one sack, or one pass breakup--but were obviously much more important and meaningful than that.

And irrespective of what some hometown writer may, or may not have said, the turnaround for Houston's defense surely has to be credited to the new DC and his schemes and coaching, not to some rookie plugged in on the DL.

To espouse the theory that J.J. Watts has singlehandedly turned around and/or elevated the entire Houston defense is ridiculous. If it were true, it would be national news, the subject of constant, repeated discussion and comment on every NFL show. I have yet to hear a single one of the talking heads mention J.J. Watts' name, much less his purported Herculean success in singlehandedly turning around Houston's defense.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
For a 3-4 DE, which normally does not accumulate stats, his exact match with Justin Smith is remarkable. In addition, the addition of JJ Watt has propelled the Texans to become the #1 defense in the NFL. Watt's impact has been astronomically more important than Aldon Smith, who is a role player at this point.

I do like the "sideline" argument for you. It is pretty clever, and funny, Cheers.

P.S. My critique of Aldon is based on the amount of undue praise for certain games, like against the Ravens. People are praising the effort as nearly superhuman, but in reality, he didn't rush the passer well at all. The Ravens neutralized him on nearly every passing down, and he was virtually invisible on and off the field.

The potential for Smith is tremendous, and I have stated this from long before the draft. But, outside of two or three games, where he really stood out, he has been largely quiet this rookie year. Guys like Miller and Watt are making differences in each and every game.

Hmm. Seems as though Matt Barrows, a man who is as close to the team as anyone, disagrees. But what does he know

Comment From RedsmallyRedsmally: ]

has aldons play fallen off or are we just not bringing enough blitzes?



MattB_49:

I watched him pancake Michael Oher in the second quarter Thursday. His play hasn't fallen off. He's more prominent against passing teams. (He and the 49ers pass rushers *should* play well Sunday against a very banged-up Rams offensive line).
[ Edited by Hoovtrain on Nov 29, 2011 at 1:18 PM ]
Originally posted by AXEGRINDER:
Ya that was pretty impressive especially considering Oher is in the 98th percentile in protective instincts.

hahahaha, good call...
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Read any of the Niners reports and they will tell you Smith is a monster and has been since TC.

You complained that the FO neglected a OLB pass rusher and they finally got one and you would rather have a 3-4 DE? We already have two very good ones and a few solid back ups. Do we draft a MLB in the first round next year if it suits your big board? I think not.

Aldon Smith has made a dominating impact for our team just as much as Watt has for his. 3-4 OLB > 3-4 DE.

Eh, at this point, as a random team I would rather have JJ Watt than Aldon Smith, but only because you take the sure thing over the potential. Aldon Smith has greater potential in possibly the most impactful defensive position, but while he's shown signs of potential/brilliance, it's not quite there yet. So I don't think we made a bad draft choice, irrespective of need (and we had a greater need at OLB than DE), but Watt is already proving it on the field.

I'm not understanding this "potential" argument...Aldon Smith has already shown he is good. He is dominating linemen at times off the edge and up the middle. His speed and quickness and stregnth is amazing. Not sure what more you want out of a 7th round pick? If he was playing on a crappier defense, he would be starting and one of the best players on the team. He happens to be behind a veteran group who has been solid the last few years.
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Nov 29, 2011 at 3:41 PM ]
  • kush
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You're a great guy Maddog, really. You're really smart. You're a great poster. You deserve to be a GM in the NFL. If I could pull some strings and get Jed York to read your posts he would be enlightened immediately, fire Trent Baalke, hire you to the job of your destiny and cruise to superbowls for a century! I just wanted to let you know how brilliant you are and no matter what anybody says, you were right about JJ Watt and Aldon Smith. We were wrong for calling you out. 7.5 sacks in mop-up time is nothing. Smith is a failure and should be booed by the fans.

Did I miss any compliments? Is your ego saved yet? Can you move on from your crusade to muddy Aldon Smith's name? Please, it's embarrassing and annoying.
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Hmm. Seems as though Matt Barrows, a man who is as close to the team as anyone, disagrees. But what does he know

Comment From RedsmallyRedsmally: ]

has aldons play fallen off or are we just not bringing enough blitzes?



MattB_49:

I watched him pancake Michael Oher in the second quarter Thursday. His play hasn't fallen off. He's more prominent against passing teams. (He and the 49ers pass rushers *should* play well Sunday against a very banged-up Rams offensive line).


Pancaking Michael Oher doesn't count because he had a hard life growing up. He was homeless at one point. Have some sympathy for the guy. Aldon should be ashamed of bullying Michael Oher. The guy is trying to get his life together for goodness sake.

The other sacks don't count either. Stafford shouldn't have been in the endzone for that safety, and he should have looked around the field, rather than fumbling the ball around after he was hit from behind (cheap shot) by Aldon Smith.

The other sacks probably shouldn't count either for other various reasons. So if you combine what Aldon Smith has done on the field, should-have-been 0 sacks, with what he has done on the sidelines, another big fat ZERO SACKS, then I think its obvious to see that he is really not doing a whole lot for us.

Forget about the fact that he is the most dominant pass rusher on a per-snap basis. That shouldn't count.
1) He is a bully (see Michael Oher above).
2) He delivers cheap shots to players who aren't looking (see Stafford above).
3) He has done NOTHING to develop his sideline game (where he has a grand total of 0 sacks).

All those "per-snap" numbers are the result of luck, illusion, bullying, and name recognition (rookie of the week 2 times).

This "Lord of Illusions" will be EXPOSED, just as the Niners were against the Giants, or wait, I mean the Ravens. And if the coaches were smart, Aldon would keep all of his per-snap bull-rushing, pocket-collapsing, quarterback pressuring, sacking, pancaking shenanigans on the sideline 100% of the time where they can't hurt anybody.
[ Edited by BrianGO on Nov 29, 2011 at 4:25 PM ]
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Read any of the Niners reports and they will tell you Smith is a monster and has been since TC.

You complained that the FO neglected a OLB pass rusher and they finally got one and you would rather have a 3-4 DE? We already have two very good ones and a few solid back ups. Do we draft a MLB in the first round next year if it suits your big board? I think not.

Aldon Smith has made a dominating impact for our team just as much as Watt has for his. 3-4 OLB > 3-4 DE.

Eh, at this point, as a random team I would rather have JJ Watt than Aldon Smith, but only because you take the sure thing over the potential. Aldon Smith has greater potential in possibly the most impactful defensive position, but while he's shown signs of potential/brilliance, it's not quite there yet. So I don't think we made a bad draft choice, irrespective of need (and we had a greater need at OLB than DE), but Watt is already proving it on the field.

I'm not understanding this "potential" argument...Aldon Smith has already shown he is good. He is dominating linemen at times off the edge and up the middle. His speed and quickness and stregnth is amazing. Not sure what more you want out of a 7th round pick? If he was playing on a crappier defense, he would be starting and one of the best players on the team. He happens to be behind a veteran group who has been solid the last few years.


Have you no decency sir?

JJ Watt is a model citizen who is on the field nearly 100% of the defensive snaps. Aldon is a bully, who is only allowed to come out and play about 35% of the defensive snaps.

On a per-snap basis, Aldon would be leading the league in sacks, but that's ONLY because he uses cheap shot and bully tactics (knocking recovering homeless people on their ass). This is the reason I feel we should bring that 35% play time down to something more along the lines of, ZERO percent. THAT will teach him.
Originally posted by Engleburger:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Miller is a future Hall-of-Famer if he keeps it up. Aldon is a future perennial pro-bowler. But just because Miller is out-of-this world, that doesn't take much away from Aldon Smith.

JJ Watt see's three times the amount of snaps. He probably has more total snaps than Miller too.

Excellent post.

I wouldn't get too caught up in comparing JJ to Aldon, though. They play different positions. Raymac and JSmith are lights out, so theres really no need for Watt anyways.
I agree. Excellent post.

The surprise is that anyone would try to compare the play of J.J. Watts to that of Justin Smith this year. SMH.

"They have the same stats." So what? Does Watts face a double team on EVERY play? If not, then there's no comparison.

Has Watts played at a high level for 10 or 12 years? No. SMH.

Is Watts a leader of his defense? SMH.

How many big plays, game savers, has Watts made this year? SMH.

You are absolutely correct. With RayMac and Justin Smith, there was no need for J.J. Watts. There was, however, a desperate need for a rush OLB.

Its difficult to believe that any NFL GM with any sense would trade either Justin Smith OR Aldon Smith for J.J. Watts this year.
[ Edited by oldninerdude on Nov 29, 2011 at 4:46 PM ]
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Read any of the Niners reports and they will tell you Smith is a monster and has been since TC.

You complained that the FO neglected a OLB pass rusher and they finally got one and you would rather have a 3-4 DE? We already have two very good ones and a few solid back ups. Do we draft a MLB in the first round next year if it suits your big board? I think not.

Aldon Smith has made a dominating impact for our team just as much as Watt has for his. 3-4 OLB > 3-4 DE.

Eh, at this point, as a random team I would rather have JJ Watt than Aldon Smith, but only because you take the sure thing over the potential. Aldon Smith has greater potential in possibly the most impactful defensive position, but while he's shown signs of potential/brilliance, it's not quite there yet. So I don't think we made a bad draft choice, irrespective of need (and we had a greater need at OLB than DE), but Watt is already proving it on the field.

I'm not understanding this "potential" argument...Aldon Smith has already shown he is good. He is dominating linemen at times off the edge and up the middle. His speed and quickness and stregnth is amazing. Not sure what more you want out of a 7th round pick? If he was playing on a crappier defense, he would be starting and one of the best players on the team. He happens to be behind a veteran group who has been solid the last few years.


Have you no decency sir?

JJ Watt is a model citizen who is on the field nearly 100% of the defensive snaps. Aldon is a bully, who is only allowed to come out and play about 35% of the defensive snaps.

On a per-snap basis, Aldon would be leading the league in sacks, but that's ONLY because he uses cheap shot and bully tactics (knocking recovering homeless people on their ass). This is the reason I feel we should bring that 35% play time down to something more along the lines of, ZERO percent. THAT will teach him.
Dude, you're killing.
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I agree. Excellent post.

The surprise is that anyone would try to compare the play of J.J. Watts to that of Justin Smith this year. SMH.

"They have the same stats." So what? Does Watts face a double team on EVERY play? If not, then there's no comparison.

Has Watts played at a high level for 10 or 12 years? No. SMH.

Is Watts a leader of his defense? SMH.

How many big plays, game savers, has Watts made this year? SMH.

You are absolutely correct. With RayMac and Justin Smith, there was no need for J.J. Watts. There was, however, a desperate need for a rush OLB.

Its difficult to believe that any NFL GM with any sense would trade either Justin Smith OR Aldon Smith for J.J. Watts this year.



All of you guys are missing the point...

its not Watts, or Wade Phillips, or the new secondary players that makes the Texans D great...

its that Brian Cushing takes lots and lots of steriods and then beats on people DUH!
Brian you are cracking me up dude...

Guys really Aldo is 20 freaking years old!!! Miller, Kerrigan, Watt, Reed...all those guys are 2 and 3 years older.

MD for the work that Aldo has contributed so far this season given how raw and untested he is, compared to the others I say he is over-acheiving given the amount of snaps he has made....but I agree he is not used because Harrelson is better at the run game, and also he is still extremly raw at pass coverage.

2 years from now when he is 22, he will be a premiere OLB in the NFL. I love the pick and the potential, this whole draft every single player was drafted to be developed for the future. Be thankful for everyone's contributions this soon, and a good part of the reason why we will wrap up the NFC West this weekend.
Originally posted by Baugh_Area:
You're a great guy Maddog, really. You're really smart. You're a great poster. You deserve to be a GM in the NFL. If I could pull some strings and get Jed York to read your posts he would be enlightened immediately, fire Trent Baalke, hire you to the job of your destiny and cruise to superbowls for a century! I just wanted to let you know how brilliant you are and no matter what anybody says, you were right about JJ Watt and Aldon Smith. We were wrong for calling you out. 7.5 sacks in mop-up time is nothing. Smith is a failure and should be booed by the fans.

Did I miss any compliments? Is your ego saved yet? Can you move on from your crusade to muddy Aldon Smith's name? Please, it's embarrassing and annoying.

Thank you for the compliments.

As for Aldon Smith, I am just temporing the Aldon Smith is the greatest player in NFL history, but is still a backup. People need to live in reality that he is simply a one-trick pony at this point, and in some games, he is completely absent. Is he bad? No. Is he good? As a backup, he's been very good. But, to put him up on some pedestal as some guy who is making this gigantic impact on this team and the league is a joke. HE IS A BACKUP!!!!! People project future star potential as if it is happening on the field.

How many times do we have to hear: "If the QB only held the ball for 5 more seconds, Aldon would have sacked him", or "Smith is great because he ran over, or around a player" or "Can Smith be a 20+ sack guy?"

He's not great, and until some fans realize that he has tremendous potential, but is not producing at a rate that should warrant star status, then we can live in a state of reality.
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Brian you are cracking me up dude...

Guys really Aldo is 20 freaking years old!!! Miller, Kerrigan, Watt, Reed...all those guys are 2 and 3 years older.

MD for the work that Aldo has contributed so far this season given how raw and untested he is, compared to the others I say he is over-acheiving given the amount of snaps he has made....but I agree he is not used because Harrelson is better at the run game, and also he is still extremly raw at pass coverage.

2 years from now when he is 22, he will be a premiere OLB in the NFL. I love the pick and the potential, this whole draft every single player was drafted to be developed for the future. Be thankful for everyone's contributions this soon, and a good part of the reason why we will wrap up the NFC West this weekend.
Smith was born in September 1989, Watt in March 1989. Watt is six months older. Kerrigan is 13 months older than Smith.

He might be the premier OLB in the NFL in two years, but he will be 24, not 22. He's 22 right now.
  • kush
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Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Baugh_Area:
You're a great guy Maddog, really. You're really smart. You're a great poster. You deserve to be a GM in the NFL. If I could pull some strings and get Jed York to read your posts he would be enlightened immediately, fire Trent Baalke, hire you to the job of your destiny and cruise to superbowls for a century! I just wanted to let you know how brilliant you are and no matter what anybody says, you were right about JJ Watt and Aldon Smith. We were wrong for calling you out. 7.5 sacks in mop-up time is nothing. Smith is a failure and should be booed by the fans.

Did I miss any compliments? Is your ego saved yet? Can you move on from your crusade to muddy Aldon Smith's name? Please, it's embarrassing and annoying.

Thank you for the compliments.

As for Aldon Smith, I am just temporing the Aldon Smith is the greatest player in NFL history, but is still a backup. People need to live in reality that he is simply a one-trick pony at this point, and in some games, he is completely absent. Is he bad? No. Is he good? As a backup, he's been very good. But, to put him up on some pedestal as some guy who is making this gigantic impact on this team and the league is a joke. HE IS A BACKUP!!!!! People project future star potential as if it is happening on the field.

How many times do we have to hear: "If the QB only held the ball for 5 more seconds, Aldon would have sacked him", or "Smith is great because he ran over, or around a player" or "Can Smith be a 20+ sack guy?"

He's not great, and until some fans realize that he has tremendous potential, but is not producing at a rate that should warrant star status, then we can live in a state of reality.

I don't want to live in your reality Maddog. Honestly, your denial and shifting of the facts strikes of a drug addict feverishly attempting to justify everything he says or does. You can spin the facts any way you want Maddog, but you're only kidding yourself at this point.

No one here is stating Aldon Smith is the greatest player ever. Some, myself included, feel he's the best pass rusher we've had in a decade and IMO that's pretty damn hard to argue right now. He has produced very well and is a huge bright spot at this point. It's not just webzoners who are excited about him either...all across the league people are heaping praise on this kid. You can refuse to accept that if you will....or you can just keep chilling in "reality".