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How does this compare to '81?
Oct 19, 2011 at 10:02 PM
- gold49digger
- Veteran
- Posts: 17,321
the HC's came from standford... thats all i know.
Oct 19, 2011 at 10:06 PM
- kidash98
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 26,621
Originally posted by 1stAndGoal49ers:
You really don't want him to succeed, huh?
- 98
Oct 19, 2011 at 10:21 PM
- 1stAndGoal49ers
- Veteran
- Posts: 392
Originally posted by KDTMDSFC:I want Alex to win so badly. He wins my 49ers win and it means I win because I have nothing else going for me besides the 49ers I just don't think he has it in him.
Originally posted by 1stAndGoal49ers:
You really don't want him to succeed, huh?
- 98
I also don't think it's fair to compare Joe Montana or anyone who played in his era to today's QB's . Joe Dan and John and anyone who played 20-25 years ago were not cradled like little babies as today's QB's are. QB's of today run around and throw the ball so freely (except Alex) and if you even sneeze next to them you are hit with a 15 yard penalty. The game is different today.So comparing today's stats to stats that were accumulated 20+ years ago is ridiculous. IMO
Oct 19, 2011 at 11:22 PM
- dtg_9er
- Veteran
- Posts: 33,204
Originally posted by 1stAndGoal49ers:
It does not compare.
In 1981 I was 14 years old and up to then the 49ers were horrible.
Know your history! The following bit of history is posted here for it's relevance to last Sunday's game, your comment, and as a warning for the 9ers not to be overconfident after beating the Lions!
"On Nov. 3, 1957, the 49ers hosted the Detroit Lions, a game which has gone down in local lore as featuring arguably the greatest pass play (along with Dwight Clark's "The Catch" in 1981). With 10 seconds remaining, 49ers ball on the Lions 41, Detroit leading 31–28, Y. A. Tittle threw a desperation pass into the end zone, right into the arms of high-leaping R. C. Owens. The play became famously known as the "Alley Oop". Ironically, the two men covering Owens would later become 49ers coaches: Jack Christiansen (Head Coach), and Jim David. The 49ers would end that season with three straight victories and an 8–4 record, tying the Detroit Lions for the NFL Western Division title."
- They were not always bad and even had some decent teams in the 70s.
- Detroit beat them in the playoffs in 1957 to end their run at a championship.
Oct 19, 2011 at 11:53 PM
- nw9erfan
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,497
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
For those old enough to remember the '81 season, I'm wondering how this season compares. Of course I can't compare the two, as in '81 we went on to win the Super Bowl (in '82), and this is obviously premature, but I remember hearing how that was a magical season with everything going right, everyone being on board, etc. etc. So through 6 games, does this seem similar? Hope this makes sense
Since the season is far from over, I hesitate to compare it just yet. But....here are the similarities thus far as I see them...
Both teams hired innovative and creative head coaches from Stanford.
Both teams installed aggressive defensive schemes helped out by a strong pass rush.
Both teams employed an efficient QB that made plays when the team needed them.
Both teams won key road games in the eastern time zone early in the season which gave them confidence.
Both teams won blowout games against a strong opponent at home early in the season which also gave them confidence.
Both teams demonstrated a toughness that was previously not a team identity.
Both teams won several close games that required making a play or two near the end of the game, a trait not evident in previous years.
Both teams employed creative game plans which confused opponents.
Both teams got great contributions from rookie draft picks and FA signings.
Both teams had a lot of talent not fully recognized by the national media...
For those of you old enough to remember the magical year of '81, please feel free to add to this list.
[ Edited by nw9erfan on Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 PM ]
Oct 19, 2011 at 11:55 PM
- nw9erfan
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,497
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by 1stAndGoal49ers:
It does not compare.
In 1981 I was 14 years old and up to then the 49ers were horrible.
Know your history! The following bit of history is posted here for it's relevance to last Sunday's game, your comment, and as a warning for the 9ers not to be overconfident after beating the Lions!
"On Nov. 3, 1957, the 49ers hosted the Detroit Lions, a game which has gone down in local lore as featuring arguably the greatest pass play (along with Dwight Clark's "The Catch" in 1981). With 10 seconds remaining, 49ers ball on the Lions 41, Detroit leading 31–28, Y. A. Tittle threw a desperation pass into the end zone, right into the arms of high-leaping R. C. Owens. The play became famously known as the "Alley Oop". Ironically, the two men covering Owens would later become 49ers coaches: Jack Christiansen (Head Coach), and Jim David. The 49ers would end that season with three straight victories and an 8–4 record, tying the Detroit Lions for the NFL Western Division title."
- They were not always bad and even had some decent teams in the 70s.
- Detroit beat them in the playoffs in 1957 to end their run at a championship.
Not to mention the fact that the Niners of 1970-72 won 3 straight division titles and went to 2 NFC Championship games. Oh......I did mention it.
Oct 20, 2011 at 3:32 AM
- Memphis9er
- Veteran
- Posts: 12,247
Originally posted by 1stAndGoal49ers:
all you want, it is still a fact.
Oct 20, 2011 at 8:10 AM
- dtg_9er
- Veteran
- Posts: 33,204
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Not to mention the fact that the Niners of 1970-72 won 3 straight division titles and went to 2 NFC Championship games. Oh......I did mention it.
Loved those teams as well! Drafted and couldn't watch them all but kept up reading "Stars and Stripes."
Oct 20, 2011 at 10:58 AM
- WildBill
- Veteran
- Posts: 6,100
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Since the season is far from over, I hesitate to compare it just yet. But....here are the similarities thus far...
Both teams hired innovative and creative head coaches from Stanford. Agree
Both teams installed aggressive defensive schemes helped out by a strong pass rush. Disagree/ Agree (the 81 team was not as agressive as this years)
Both teams employed an efficient QB that made plays when the team needed them. Disagree-Montana was more consistent and could string together long drives
Both teams won key road games on the eastern time zone early in the season which gave them confidence. Agree
Both teams won blowout games against a strong opponent at home early in the season which also gave them confidence. Disagree- I wouldn't compare Tampa with Dallas
Both teams demonstrated a toughness that was previously not a team identity. Agree
Both teams won several close games that required making a play or two near the end of the game, a trait not evident in previous years. Agree
Both teams employed creative game plans which confused opponents. Agree-but we employed short pass game then, now it is a power run game
Both teams got great contributions from rookie draft picks and FA signings. Agree
Both teams had a lot of talent not fully recognized by the national media... Agree
For those of you old enough to remember the magical year of '81, please feel free to add to this list.
However, there are many dismilar things to-one being the Western Division was stronger back then.
This is how I see it.
Oct 20, 2011 at 11:19 AM
- nw9erfan
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,497
Originally posted by WildBill:
This is how I see it.
With all due respect Wild Bill, it appears...to quote Walter Matthau in JFK....that you are "picking gnat sh*t out of pepper").
If you read each of the points I made that you disagreed with, you will notice that I made a general statement which allows for enough room to include the points you made.
For example, I do think the '81 team had an aggressive defense, just in a different way than the current one. The young CBs in '81 played a lot of man coverage for example and that team blitzed a fair amount too.
I agree with you that Montana was more consistent in '81 than Smith has been this year but don't forget that '81 was his first full season as a starter in the NFL and his stats didn't jump out at anyone. He was "efficient", as I stated. Thus far, Smith has been "efficient" too.
Even though the Tampa team of '11 doesn't compare to the Dallas team of '81 (I also agree with you there), it still is regarded throughout the league as a "strong opponent"...
Both the '81 and '11 teams experienced success with creative game plans....I intentionally was no more specific than that because I recognize that the offensive approaches are different because of the players on the rosters. That '81 team had some good receivers (Clark, Solomon, Wilson) and few good RBs whereas the current team has Gore and Hunter and at least thus far, a pretty limited passing attack.
All of that being said, I appreciate you reading my initial long post and it proves you were around in '81 and were paying attention...
Cheers!
[ Edited by nw9erfan on Oct 20, 2011 at 9:15 PM ]
Oct 20, 2011 at 11:55 AM
- WildBill
- Veteran
- Posts: 6,100
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
With all due respect Wild Bill, it appears...to quote Walter Matthau in JFK....that you are "picking knat sh*t out of pepper").
If you read each of the points I made that you disagreed with, you will notice that I made a general statement which allows for enough room to include the points you made.
For example, I do think the '81 team had an aggressive defense, just in a different way than the current one. The young CBs in '81 played a lot of man coverage for example and that team blitzed a fair amount too.
I agree with you that Montana was more consistent in '81 than Smith has been this year but don't forget that '81 was his first full season as a starter in the NFL and his stats didn't jump out at anyone. He was "efficient", as I stated. Thus far, Smith has been "efficient" too.
Even though the Tampa team of '11 doesn't compare to the Dallas team of '81 (I also agree with you there), it still is regarded throughout the league as a "strong opponent"...
Both the '81 and '11 teams experienced success with creative game plans....I intentionally was no more specific than that because I recognize that the offensive approaches are different because of the players on the rosters. That '81 team had some good receivers (Clark, Solomon, Wilson) and few good RBs whereas the current team has Gore and Hunter and at least thus far, a pretty limited passing attack.
All of that being said, I appreciate you reading my initial long post and it proves you were around in '81 and were paying attention...
Cheers!
I may be picking at knat (what the hell is a knat or did you mean gnat?-hee hee, yes I'm picking again), but the post was "similarities" so just pointing at the gnat $hit.
Montana strung his efficiency together to make long drives more often. Where as Alex whether fair or not, has not. He has not turned the ball over, and his completion percentage is high, but Joe would string them in a way to make first downs and keep the drive going. Alex has had short fields because of ST and defense. Just being honest having been there, I don't think the defense would hold up back then if they had to play the way they did with this offense.
My other point is that Dallas was more like the Pats, Ravens and Packers, championship contenders while Tampa is just playoff contenders. Again gnat $hit, but meaningful gnat $hit .
I don't see the defense as agressive back in the day, just fundementally sound. They did
Oct 20, 2011 at 12:02 PM
- pasodoc9er
- Veteran
- Posts: 21,009
NW that was an excellent compilation and I would add one thing to it: Both teams had great pulling Guards. Until 3 games ago, i didn't even know if Snyder should have gone with Heitmann and baas or not. About then it became apparent that chilo was the #1 problem and made guys on both sides of him look bad. Then the pulling G started, and all of a sudden, their were lanes to run not seen in yrs. Putting Soap in the backfield was an interesting wrinkle, but make no mistake , when you have a great pulling G, you are a much harder team to stop on Runs.
IWasWrongRubber, I posted before season and just after the Saints and Texans games that it would take JH hopefully no more than 10 games to get the OL to block. I figured 5 games to learn passblocking and another 5 to learn run blocking. Fast forward to Bucs game, and we had an OL that looked like it had been together for yrs. After the Detroit game, tho, against the purported best DL in the league, our OL just kicked their azz. Watching Suh be nullified, vandeBosch got his first sack and then, we just beat them up. At end of game I watched a number of the Detroit DL come over and congratulate the 9ers OL. They knew they had met their match.
Dj, I remember Stallworth getting clobbered across the middle (by Lott?...can't remember), and after that, nobody seemed to want to go into that minefield, or they got blown up.
1st and Goal, I agree it's not fair to compare Joe to anybody, alex or whover. There will always be only one Joe...one guy 4-0 in SB with no INTs. As luck would have it , I was at the Bluebonnet bowl in Houston ( I think Joe's Sr, maybe Jr yr at Notre Dame), and watched him replace the #1 QB who wasn't doing plonk. Joe went on to rally his team, and even then at that early age, you could see him look right, pump fake Left and then throw one up the middle to an unguarded HB. He was the star of that game and i am certain he did not start. I followed him of course once he came to the 9ers, but he sat the pine for awhile, obviously a part of BW's playbook.
As for alex, we have to remember this kid has taken a humongous beating physically with no OL blocking for 6 yrs. The verbal abuse was way worse yet
(not by me...I was neutral, saying he needed a good coach 1st, and then we would see), and the webzone was unmerciful with him. Biggest surprise? When he actually wanted to come back here. jH and his playing catch with alex must have been an interesting thing to see. I wonder if we will ever know what was said.
Many people forget that he came here after graduating from college in two yrs, then stayed on another yr to play football. The kid is smart. Obviously he was dying for good QB coaching, a great OC playcaller, and a HC who could coach each and every position, OL, DL , etc on the team. Well, he got that in JH, and now we are starting to see what alex has. I know he has a high fastball, but i suspect we will start seeing jH work with him on looking off WRs, pump fakes, better ball handling, esp hand off fakes ( that Joe was best ever at ), as well as check offs , better reading (which is already worlds better than last yr)...well, you get the idea. We do not know what alex has yet. Based on what i have seen so far with JH, we are all in for a really nice surprise when he finishes with alex. And i don't expect it all to happen this yr.
IWasWrongRubber, I posted before season and just after the Saints and Texans games that it would take JH hopefully no more than 10 games to get the OL to block. I figured 5 games to learn passblocking and another 5 to learn run blocking. Fast forward to Bucs game, and we had an OL that looked like it had been together for yrs. After the Detroit game, tho, against the purported best DL in the league, our OL just kicked their azz. Watching Suh be nullified, vandeBosch got his first sack and then, we just beat them up. At end of game I watched a number of the Detroit DL come over and congratulate the 9ers OL. They knew they had met their match.
Dj, I remember Stallworth getting clobbered across the middle (by Lott?...can't remember), and after that, nobody seemed to want to go into that minefield, or they got blown up.
1st and Goal, I agree it's not fair to compare Joe to anybody, alex or whover. There will always be only one Joe...one guy 4-0 in SB with no INTs. As luck would have it , I was at the Bluebonnet bowl in Houston ( I think Joe's Sr, maybe Jr yr at Notre Dame), and watched him replace the #1 QB who wasn't doing plonk. Joe went on to rally his team, and even then at that early age, you could see him look right, pump fake Left and then throw one up the middle to an unguarded HB. He was the star of that game and i am certain he did not start. I followed him of course once he came to the 9ers, but he sat the pine for awhile, obviously a part of BW's playbook.
As for alex, we have to remember this kid has taken a humongous beating physically with no OL blocking for 6 yrs. The verbal abuse was way worse yet
(not by me...I was neutral, saying he needed a good coach 1st, and then we would see), and the webzone was unmerciful with him. Biggest surprise? When he actually wanted to come back here. jH and his playing catch with alex must have been an interesting thing to see. I wonder if we will ever know what was said.
Many people forget that he came here after graduating from college in two yrs, then stayed on another yr to play football. The kid is smart. Obviously he was dying for good QB coaching, a great OC playcaller, and a HC who could coach each and every position, OL, DL , etc on the team. Well, he got that in JH, and now we are starting to see what alex has. I know he has a high fastball, but i suspect we will start seeing jH work with him on looking off WRs, pump fakes, better ball handling, esp hand off fakes ( that Joe was best ever at ), as well as check offs , better reading (which is already worlds better than last yr)...well, you get the idea. We do not know what alex has yet. Based on what i have seen so far with JH, we are all in for a really nice surprise when he finishes with alex. And i don't expect it all to happen this yr.
Oct 20, 2011 at 12:27 PM
- nw9erfan
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,497
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
NW that was an excellent compilation and I would add one thing to it: Both teams had great pulling Guards. Until 3 games ago, i didn't even know if Snyder should have gone with Heitmann and baas or not. About then it became apparent that chilo was the #1 problem and made guys on both sides of him look bad. Then the pulling G started, and all of a sudden, their were lanes to run not seen in yrs. Putting Soap in the backfield was an interesting wrinkle, but make no mistake , when you have a great pulling G, you are a much harder team to stop on Runs.
IWasWrongRubber, I posted before season and just after the Saints and Texans games that it would take JH hopefully no more than 10 games to get the OL to block. I figured 5 games to learn passblocking and another 5 to learn run blocking. Fast forward to Bucs game, and we had an OL that looked like it had been together for yrs. After the Detroit game, tho, against the purported best DL in the league, our OL just kicked their azz. Watching Suh be nullified, vandeBosch got his first sack and then, we just beat them up. At end of game I watched a number of the Detroit DL come over and congratulate the 9ers OL. They knew they had met their match.
Dj, I remember Stallworth getting clobbered across the middle (by Lott?...can't remember), and after that, nobody seemed to want to go into that minefield, or they got blown up.
1st and Goal, I agree it's not fair to compare Joe to anybody, alex or whomever. There will always be only one Joe...one guy 4-0 in SB with no INTs. As luck would have it , I was at the Bluebonnet bowl in Houston ( I think Joe's Sr, maybe Jr yr at Notre Dame), and watched him replace the #1 QB who wasn't doing plonk. Joe went on to rally his team, and even then at that early age, you could see him look right, pump fake Left and then throw one up the middle to an unguarded HB. He was the star of that game and i am certain he did not start. I followed him of course once he came to the 9ers, but he sat the pine for awhile, obviously a part of BW's playbook.
As for Alex, we have to remember this kid has taken a humongous beating physically with no OL blocking for 6 yrs. The verbal abuse was way worse yet
(not by me...I was neutral, saying he needed a good coach 1st, and then we would see), and the webzone was unmerciful with him. Biggest surprise? When he actually wanted to come back here. jH and his playing catch with alex must have been an interesting thing to see. I wonder if we will ever know what was said.
Many people forget that he came here after graduating from college in two yrs, then stayed on another yr to play football. The kid is smart. Obviously he was dying for good QB coaching, a great OC playcaller, and a HC who could coach each and every position, OL, DL , etc on the team. Well, he got that in JH, and now we are starting to see what Alex has. I know he has a high fastball, but i suspect we will start seeing jH work with him on looking off WRs, pump fakes, better ball handling, esp hand off fakes ( that Joe was best ever at ), as well as check offs , better reading (which is already worlds better than last yr)...well, you get the idea. We do not know what Alex has yet. Based on what i have seen so far with JH, we are all in for a really nice surprise when he finishes with Alex. And i don't expect it all to happen this yr.
First, thanks for the kind words PasoDoc...
Excellent point about the pulling guards (staple of the Walsh offenses) and great comments about Alex . It is going to be very interesting to see just what Alex's ceiling really is. After all, he has only been working in this system for a few months. Give him a full off-season and training camp and then let's see what he is really capable of.
Oh, BTW, the guy who hit Stallworth over the middle was Carlton Williamson... I remember the play well.
Oct 20, 2011 at 12:28 PM
- nw9erfan
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,497
Originally posted by WildBill:
I may be picking at knat (what the hell is a knat or did you mean gnat?-hee hee, yes I'm picking again), but the post was "similarities" so just pointing at the gnat $hit.
Montana strung his efficiency together to make long drives more often. Where as Alex whether fair or not, has not. He has not turned the ball over, and his completion percentage is high, but Joe would string them in a way to make first downs and keep the drive going. Alex has had short fields because of ST and defense. Just being honest having been there, I don't think the defense would hold up back then if they had to play the way they did with this offense.
My other point is that Dallas was more like the Pats, Ravens and Packers, championship contenders while Tampa is just playoff contenders. Again gnat $hit, but meaningful gnat $hit .
I don't see the defense as agressive back in the day, just fundementally sound. They did
I meant "gnat"....Thanks Bill!
Oct 20, 2011 at 7:09 PM
- jdean
- Veteran
- Posts: 165
Originally posted by dj43:The 81 team did not have the talent of this team. It was more like the SF Giants of last season - a team of misfits that no one else wanted. Jack Reynolds was past his prime but a great teacher. Dan Audick was an emotionally disturbed guard playing OLT. Earl Cooper was a disappointment at RB but played well at TE. The secondary just jelled unbelievably quickly. Montana was not yet the HOF QB but played just well enough to get the wins in some close games. I could go on but the current teams has more overall talent, especially in the front 7 on defense and at RB.
To me, the greatest similarity is in the fact the '81 team snuck up on a lot of teams and so has the current team...so far.
As good as bill Walsh was at drafting, 1980 was his worst for 1st rd picks. Cooper was 13th overall and stuckey was in the mid 20's. Today's forum would be ripping Walsh for the poor draft.