Smith's 'glass jaw' will eventually get exposed with 49ers

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
If Harbaugh didn't "trust" Smith in the 2nd half then I seriously question his judgment as a coach. I don't think that's true at all. Smith had a 100+ rating going into half time (12/18 100+ yards and 1 TD, 0 int). And h converted nearly all of the third downs with passing. If those numbers don't instill a sense of trust between you and your QB then I don't even know what to say.

I don't think that's a problem though. I think Harbaugh thought he could get away, again, with playing soft in the 2nd half with a 2 TD lead. He forgot that we were playing the Cowboys and their QB isn't Tavaris Jackson.

...and that surprises me coming from the guy who ran up the score in college.

I think that INT scared Coach into really going into conservative mode....kind of what happened to Singletary a couple of years ago against the Bears I believe....Sing "freed" Alex, and we were running the spread and doing alot of stuff in the first half.....looked good...then in the second half, Alex threw a senseless INT..then after that, we went into conservative mode the rest of the game....and even with Cutler's 5 ints, we still almost lost at the end.

in this game it seemed that was the case.....IMO, if Alex did not throw that INT...and say just went 3 and out instead....well, I think Harbs would've still played the second half, like the 1st half...when we were more aggressive and making plays...and Alex was looking better. But no, it was painful to watch the second half because it was all too familiar.

if Alex is still not comfortable under center in tough situations...and our Oline isn't blocking the best (I think they are doing fine)...then why are we not coming out in shotgun or spreading the defense out? They are the ones with a depleted secondary...get their 3rd string DBs on the field, instead of having their dangerous LBing crew out there.

and that doesn't mean we should air it out, out of the spread....it fact that could be used as our running game...quick short passes for positive yardage. Or WR screens to Williams...or what ever.

Harbaugh, I believe, was on the Raider staff when Rich Gannon was the QB and was KILLING! When ever the Raiders played a tough defense with a strong front 7, they would spread them out. I can remember like it was yesterday Gannon and company frustrating the Steelers and Patriots, because they couldn't get to the QB.

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
If Harbaugh didn't "trust" Smith in the 2nd half then I seriously question his judgment as a coach. I don't think that's true at all. Smith had a 100+ rating going into half time (12/18 100+ yards and 1 TD, 0 int). And h converted nearly all of the third downs with passing. If those numbers don't instill a sense of trust between you and your QB then I don't even know what to say.

I don't think that's a problem though. I think Harbaugh thought he could get away, again, with playing soft in the 2nd half with a 2 TD lead. He forgot that we were playing the Cowboys and their QB isn't Tavaris Jackson.

...and that surprises me coming from the guy who ran up the score in college.

I think that INT scared Coach into really going into conservative mode....kind of what happened to Singletary a couple of years ago against the Bears I believe....Sing "freed" Alex, and we were running the spread and doing alot of stuff in the first half.....looked good...then in the second half, Alex threw a senseless INT..then after that, we went into conservative mode the rest of the game....and even with Cutler's 5 ints, we still almost lost at the end.

in this game it seemed that was the case.....IMO, if Alex did not throw that INT...and say just went 3 and out instead....well, I think Harbs would've still played the second half, like the 1st half...when we were more aggressive and making plays...and Alex was looking better. But no, it was painful to watch the second half because it was all too familiar.

if Alex is still not comfortable under center in tough situations...and our Oline isn't blocking the best (I think they are doing fine)...then why are we not coming out in shotgun or spreading the defense out? They are the ones with a depleted secondary...get their 3rd string DBs on the field, instead of having their dangerous LBing crew out there.

and that doesn't mean we should air it out, out of the spread....it fact that could be used as our running game...quick short passes for positive yardage. Or WR screens to Williams...or what ever.

Harbaugh, I believe, was on the Raider staff when Rich Gannon was the QB and was KILLING! When ever the Raiders played a tough defense with a strong front 7, they would spread them out. I can remember like it was yesterday Gannon and company frustrating the Steelers and Patriots, because they couldn't get to the QB.

See that bugs me. That's such a s**tty way to coach. So what? Picks are part of the game. Matt Ryan had 2 picks but guess what...he also had 4TDs. You didn't see the Falcons crawl up into a vag ball after he threw picks. Granted it's Ryan but if you watched the game yesterday...wow..he was NOT playing very well in stretches.

This is the same s**t Nolan and Sing did. Every time Alex had an INT or anything close to it...we play conservative when you should do the OPPOSITE. That's what good teams do. It's not an excuse.

Again...I don't think the conservatism has anything to do with a lack of trust in Alex. If he didn't trust Alex, he wouldn't have brought him back and they would have paid top dollar for Kolb, Palmer, Hass, etc. I've gotta believe Harbaugh isn't a hypocritical dumbass.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
If Harbaugh didn't "trust" Smith in the 2nd half then I seriously question his judgment as a coach. I don't think that's true at all. Smith had a 100+ rating going into half time (12/18 100+ yards and 1 TD, 0 int). And h converted nearly all of the third downs with passing. If those numbers don't instill a sense of trust between you and your QB then I don't even know what to say.

I don't think that's a problem though. I think Harbaugh thought he could get away, again, with playing soft in the 2nd half with a 2 TD lead. He forgot that we were playing the Cowboys and their QB isn't Tavaris Jackson.

Lambda I don't buy the whole QB rating for a "game" or a "half" or a "quarter".. Any system that says a QB is good passing for under 200 yards against a weak secondary and a INT certainly doesn't tell the whole story. It's not just the QB rating but analysis of Smith's entire game that counts. It's clear that Harbaugh doesn't trust Smith to consistently throw a slant or hit receivers over the middle unless blatently open. 80% of Smith's passes were either to the sideline or comeback routes. Very, very few timing routes or blitz beaters. Smith's passing game was manufactured to me ....and the Cowboy defense knew it. Simple defensive scheme - just run-blitz. - every down and double Davis. That's it - that's how you stop the 49ers.

Ok but those 1st half stats addresses the issue of Harbaugh's trust in Smith. I just completely disagree with that point. Just a webzone manufactured theory. That's not a defense of Alex more than it is a defense of Harbaugh. It just doesn't make sense. We passed 18 times in the first half (compared to 20 times all last game) so does that indicate a lack of trust? AND Smith played really well the first half..."manufactured" #s or not. Who cares...he got the job done. LOL cmon man...so when Smith does well...you don't "buy it" because it's "manufactured?" Fair enough but either way...he did well with what he was given. IF (big IF) Harbaugh DIDNT trust him...then he should have after the 1st half because Harbaugh did open the play book up going into the game. The first 5 or 6 plays of the game were pass plays.

Like many have said...I think it's a question of not having the full offense installed.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
If Harbaugh didn't "trust" Smith in the 2nd half then I seriously question his judgment as a coach. I don't think that's true at all. Smith had a 100+ rating going into half time (12/18 100+ yards and 1 TD, 0 int). And h converted nearly all of the third downs with passing. If those numbers don't instill a sense of trust between you and your QB then I don't even know what to say.

I don't think that's a problem though. I think Harbaugh thought he could get away, again, with playing soft in the 2nd half with a 2 TD lead. He forgot that we were playing the Cowboys and their QB isn't Tavaris Jackson.

Lambda I don't buy the whole QB rating for a "game" or a "half" or a "quarter".. Any system that says a QB is good passing for under 200 yards against a weak secondary and a INT certainly doesn't tell the whole story. It's not just the QB rating but analysis of Smith's entire game that counts. It's clear that Harbaugh doesn't trust Smith to consistently throw a slant or hit receivers over the middle unless blatently open. 80% of Smith's passes were either to the sideline or comeback routes. Very, very few timing routes or blitz beaters. Smith's passing game was manufactured to me ....and the Cowboy defense knew it. Simple defensive scheme - just run-blitz. - every down and double Davis. That's it - that's how you stop the 49ers.

nice analysis...

Originally posted by NinerGM:
It's not just the QB rating but analysis of Smith's entire game that counts. It's clear that Harbaugh doesn't trust Smith to consistently throw a slant or hit receivers over the middle unless blatently open.

And Harbaugh couldn't figure this out after watching "every single snap" of Alex's career???? Again total BS IMO. If this is the case..then I have serious doubts about Harbaughs judgment and decision making. Why the hell did he bring Alex back then if he didn't trust him because of this particular limitation? It would be an OBVIOUS handicap in this offense he's trying to install. LOL.

Again..I'm not DOUBTING that Alex has that particular weakness more than I'm doubting that Harbaugh doesn't trust him as being the reason to not open the offense.

Originally posted by Afrikan:
I think that INT scared Coach into really going into conservative mode....kind of what happened to Singletary a couple of years ago against the Bears I believe....Sing "freed" Alex, and we were running the spread and doing alot of stuff in the first half.....looked good...then in the second half, Alex threw a senseless INT..then after that, we went into conservative mode the rest of the game....and even with Cutler's 5 ints, we still almost lost at the end.

in this game it seemed that was the case.....IMO, if Alex did not throw that INT...and say just went 3 and out instead....well, I think Harbs would've still played the second half, like the 1st half...when we were more aggressive and making plays...and Alex was looking better. But no, it was painful to watch the second half because it was all too familiar.

if Alex is still not comfortable under center in tough situations...and our Oline isn't blocking the best (I think they are doing fine)...then why are we not coming out in shotgun or spreading the defense out? They are the ones with a depleted secondary...get their 3rd string DBs on the field, instead of having their dangerous LBing crew out there.

and that doesn't mean we should air it out, out of the spread....it fact that could be used as our running game...quick short passes for positive yardage. Or WR screens to Williams...or what ever.

Harbaugh, I believe, was on the Raider staff when Rich Gannon was the QB and was KILLING! When ever the Raiders played a tough defense with a strong front 7, they would spread them out. I can remember like it was yesterday Gannon and company frustrating the Steelers and Patriots, because they couldn't get to the QB.

Surely you jest.

it is quite obvious tht he doesnt thrust the o line and he trusts alex

why do i believe this?

on about half the times alex passes we have had VD blovk on the o line

that itself proves that he trusts alex and doesnt trust the o line

Originally posted by Shaj:
nice analysis...

A flawed analysis based on conjecture with no basis in fact. Harbaugh might not trust the o line, but like has been said many times, we could have gotten another QB if he didn't want Smith. Too many of you guys are totally ignoring that the system is not fully installed yet, either out of ignorance or willfully to use it as a slap against the guy that has been the biggest contributor to the offense this year. He is getting no help from the running game and very little from the line.

Originally posted by Shaj:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
If Harbaugh didn't "trust" Smith in the 2nd half then I seriously question his judgment as a coach. I don't think that's true at all. Smith had a 100+ rating going into half time (12/18 100+ yards and 1 TD, 0 int). And h converted nearly all of the third downs with passing. If those numbers don't instill a sense of trust between you and your QB then I don't even know what to say.

I don't think that's a problem though. I think Harbaugh thought he could get away, again, with playing soft in the 2nd half with a 2 TD lead. He forgot that we were playing the Cowboys and their QB isn't Tavaris Jackson.

Lambda I don't buy the whole QB rating for a "game" or a "half" or a "quarter".. Any system that says a QB is good passing for under 200 yards against a weak secondary and a INT certainly doesn't tell the whole story. It's not just the QB rating but analysis of Smith's entire game that counts. It's clear that Harbaugh doesn't trust Smith to consistently throw a slant or hit receivers over the middle unless blatently open. 80% of Smith's passes were either to the sideline or comeback routes. Very, very few timing routes or blitz beaters. Smith's passing game was manufactured to me ....and the Cowboy defense knew it. Simple defensive scheme - just run-blitz. - every down and double Davis. That's it - that's how you stop the 49ers.

nice analysis...

Although Smith is doing what he's asked to do, we don't know if he's asked not to do other things because he can't. I'm beginning to think he's not throwing post patterns and other routes in the middle of the field such as quick slants or mainly routes that require hitting a receiver on the move that require more accuracy because it is not his strength.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
nice analysis...

A flawed analysis based on conjecture with no basis in fact. Harbaugh might not trust the o line, but like has been said many times, we could have gotten another QB if he didn't want Smith. Too many of you guys are totally ignoring that the system is not fully installed yet, either out of ignorance or willfully to use it as a slap against the guy that has been the biggest contributor to the offense this year. He is getting no help from the running game and very little from the line.

Is Ron Rivera's offensive system full installed yet?

Originally posted by Shaj:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
nice analysis...

A flawed analysis based on conjecture with no basis in fact. Harbaugh might not trust the o line, but like has been said many times, we could have gotten another QB if he didn't want Smith. Too many of you guys are totally ignoring that the system is not fully installed yet, either out of ignorance or willfully to use it as a slap against the guy that has been the biggest contributor to the offense this year. He is getting no help from the running game and very little from the line.

Is Ron Rivera's offensive system full installed yet?

I wonder if we could put up the #s Green Bay did and beat Carolina?

200 yrds passing a game is not going to win us many games this year....UNLESS, we are running for 150-200 yards a game, along with big plays from our Special Teams...along with no turnovers.....walking on eggs shells man.

basically with this approach, we have more chances of losing...than winning each game.

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by Shaj:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
nice analysis...

A flawed analysis based on conjecture with no basis in fact. Harbaugh might not trust the o line, but like has been said many times, we could have gotten another QB if he didn't want Smith. Too many of you guys are totally ignoring that the system is not fully installed yet, either out of ignorance or willfully to use it as a slap against the guy that has been the biggest contributor to the offense this year. He is getting no help from the running game and very little from the line.

Is Ron Rivera's offensive system full installed yet?

I wonder if we could put up the #s Green Bay did and beat Carolina?

200 yrds passing a game is not going to win us many games this year....UNLESS, we are running for 150-200 yards a game, along with big plays from our Special Teams...along with no turnovers.....walking on eggs shells man.

basically with this approach, we have more chances of losing...than winning each game.

Harbaugh was lucky to win last week. Two games and two different halves in both games. 1st half, we dominate. 2nd half, we try to do the same thing and surprise, it doesn't work.

Harbaugh isn't learning.

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
It's not just the QB rating but analysis of Smith's entire game that counts. It's clear that Harbaugh doesn't trust Smith to consistently throw a slant or hit receivers over the middle unless blatently open.

And Harbaugh couldn't figure this out after watching "every single snap" of Alex's career???? Again total BS IMO. If this is the case..then I have serious doubts about Harbaughs judgment and decision making. Why the hell did he bring Alex back then if he didn't trust him because of this particular limitation? It would be an OBVIOUS handicap in this offense he's trying to install. LOL.

Again..I'm not DOUBTING that Alex has that particular weakness more than I'm doubting that Harbaugh doesn't trust him as being the reason to not open the offense.

I think that is what some of us are pissed at....some of us didn't want Alex back this year. But when Jim decided to bring him back, and hype him up.....well, expectations changed.

look, I have always said....*deep breath* Alex could be an ultimate QB...the best combination of tools to have....and that is why I think alot of people have always stuck by his side....coming out of the draft, I wanted Rodgers....but at the same time, watching Alex's highlights, I understood what some thought they saw.....*smart* kid, athletic, strong arm, and very young....bla bla, would be a franchise QB for the next 15+ years...and we wouldn't have to worry about anything... (but imo, that is what Aaron Rodgers has a chance of becoming.)

after watching Alex play his first couple of years, and getting everything handed to him....well I grew tired of it.

but back to your response....when Jim decided to bring Alex back and hype him up...well, WE WANTED TO SEE what Alex can do then....imo, he looked great in the first half..and did a good job improvising...as well as saying in the pocket till the last second to get a throw off, while still getting hit hard. Alex has shown he can do this in the past...IMO, he has had better FULL games in the past, compared to these last couple of weeks. Alex has problems in the past, came back in that second half....it is all a mental thing with Alex, and I don't know if a Coach can fix that...maybe all he could do is whenever it gets to that point of a mental mistakes...hide him for a bit, and slowly get him in a groove again. Problem is, that approach has us doing safe plays that teams with a strong front seven can stop more times than not.

but I agree with you, and have for a long time....Let Alex come right back and avenge his INT....see what the 2011 Alex does...if he struggles some more then move the heck on.....we are just wasting valuable time if that is the case.

Originally posted by dmax:
DUDE..GTFO with that stupid talk

You are welcome to your opinion. You can throw out all the stats and name all the other parts of the team that failed. From the moment alex threw that dumb pick the play calls got real conservative and the Cowboys captured and kept momentum.

We were winning with game in hand, Alex throws the pick and things go down hill. Period.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
If Harbaugh didn't "trust" Smith in the 2nd half then I seriously question his judgment as a coach. I don't think that's true at all. Smith had a 100+ rating going into half time (12/18 100+ yards and 1 TD, 0 int). And h converted nearly all of the third downs with passing. If those numbers don't instill a sense of trust between you and your QB then I don't even know what to say.

I don't think that's a problem though. I think Harbaugh thought he could get away, again, with playing soft in the 2nd half with a 2 TD lead. He forgot that we were playing the Cowboys and their QB isn't Tavaris Jackson.

Lambda I don't buy the whole QB rating for a "game" or a "half" or a "quarter".. Any system that says a QB is good passing for under 200 yards against a weak secondary and a INT certainly doesn't tell the whole story. It's not just the QB rating but analysis of Smith's entire game that counts. It's clear that Harbaugh doesn't trust Smith to consistently throw a slant or hit receivers over the middle unless blatently open. 80% of Smith's passes were either to the sideline or comeback routes. Very, very few timing routes or blitz beaters. Smith's passing game was manufactured to me ....and the Cowboy defense knew it. Simple defensive scheme - just run-blitz. - every down and double Davis. That's it - that's how you stop the 49ers.

Ok but those 1st half stats addresses the issue of Harbaugh's trust in Smith. I just completely disagree with that point. Just a webzone manufactured theory. That's not a defense of Alex more than it is a defense of Harbaugh. It just doesn't make sense. We passed 18 times in the first half (compared to 20 times all last game) so does that indicate a lack of trust? AND Smith played really well the first half..."manufactured" #s or not. Who cares...he got the job done. LOL cmon man...so when Smith does well...you don't "buy it" because it's "manufactured?" Fair enough but either way...he did well with what he was given. IF (big IF) Harbaugh DIDNT trust him...then he should have after the 1st half because Harbaugh did open the play book up going into the game. The first 5 or 6 plays of the game were pass plays.

Like many have said...I think it's a question of not having the full offense installed.

I don't think it addresses the issues of Harbaugh's trust in Smith. The Cowboys adjusted. I think our game plan - which was simple passes to the sidelines, and if someone is wide open in the middle of the field, throw - and run, run, run mixed with screens and misdirection. That worked. It was a brilliant game plan that emphasized Smith's strengths and minimized his weaknesses. However, when the Cowboys adjusted, things changed. Rob Ryan essentially said - fine, we are going to run blitz or run blitz every down because we don't believe Smith will beat us. Not one 3rd down converted after the half. The one play that worked well was another brilliantly designed play - it looked like a 2TE set run - max protect on the left side with Davis and Walker on the right. Davis draws a CB and FS and Walker is one-on-one with Ware - complete mismatch - TD. Again, the throw - outside to Walker down the right sideline. However, comeback routes only work when Smith has time - and Ryan wasn't going to allow that. The only way to beat the blitz was the same way the Cowboys beat us - quick timing pass over the middle, WR (or TE) matched against a LB in the middle of a zone. The one pass to Davis over the middle was a pick. Smith never threw over the middle to a receiver (not a dump off to a RB or outlet or flip) again.

I'm not saying I hate Alex Smith or he didn't play well for Alex Smith. However, I do believe after watching him enough, he isn't good at a traditional WCO that can throw timing slants off 3-step drops, hitting WR or TE in stride - specifically for beating the blitz. I'm not saying this loss is Smith's fault. There's a lot of blame to go around. I'm just saying Smith is limited or being limited in what can (or being asked) to do. The frustration with the OL has more to do with the running game IMHO, than pass protection. The sacks that I saw excepts for maybe 2 or 3 of them came off of 5 or 7 step drops which, probably wasn't the best thing to do. Both of Smith's TD passes came off of quick throws - he knew immediately his match up and the pass came out almost immediately despite the Cowboy blitz.

Harbaugh's trust may be more of a wider issue than just Smith - but the entire offense (including the OL). It's not a webzone manufactured story. It was Maiocco who penned the first article shortly after the game called "Harbaugh doesn't trust the Offense" and then the OP references an article about AS having a "Glass Jaw". Why aren't the 49ers calling traditional WCO routes more often. We know they exist - Ginn's slant. We have two very good slot receivers and slot patterns were run, but when did Smith regularly throw there? Certainly not after the half.

Again, not bashing Smith - I just don't think he will ever become a timing, slot throwing, throw-the-receiver-open QB. And against decent defenses that can effectively run-blitz, clog the running lanes, and rush the passer, this will consistently stall our offense.... Until Smith makes the D pay for blitzing. It may work for a half, but at some point, the 49ers are going to have to make teams pay for their adjustments.

Couldn't agree more.