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Tolzien vs. Kaepernick

Originally posted by Otter:
I didn't want the team to draft Kaepernick. Didn't play against the best competition in college, played in a gimmick offense, and we knew he'd be a project. I expect him to be a bust. Hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow as that would mean the team is winning with him leading. I'm just not hopeful. It was interesting to watch Kaepernick scramble in the preseason games. He would take off and start looking to turn the corner upfield, only to encounter the opposing linebackers. That didn't happen in college, he could outrun the competition. That was a good lesson for him to learn, NFL linebackers are fast.

I'm not sure how Tolzien will work out, probably be another Shaun Hill, effective backup. I was hoping we'd draft Ponder, but knew he wouldn't fall, so my realistic alternative was Stanzi. He's not looking that good either.

I made a point in a different thread that I did not see much (if any) progress from Kaep, game 1 to game 4-wise on pocket-passing discipline vice his urge to tuck the ball in and start scrambling.

We all know from his college days that he is a fine scrambler, but NFL defensive coordinators (and their NFL-level players) WILL make him pass from the pocket.

Until he gets in some playing time during the regular season, the best situation to hone his pocket passing awareness is in preseason games under live conditions. You just dont get that during team practice sessions.

From his rather extensive body of work this preseason, I did not see that developmental progress.
[ Edited by Bluefalcon61 on Sep 7, 2011 at 10:08 AM ]
There is no doubt that Tolzien is ahead of Kaep this season.

Spank you very much San Diego.
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Originally posted by Otter:
I didn't want the team to draft Kaepernick. Didn't play against the best competition in college, played in a gimmick offense, and we knew he'd be a project. I expect him to be a bust. Hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow as that would mean the team is winning with him leading. I'm just not hopeful. It was interesting to watch Kaepernick scramble in the preseason games. He would take off and start looking to turn the corner upfield, only to encounter the opposing linebackers. That didn't happen in college, he could outrun the competition. That was a good lesson for him to learn, NFL linebackers are fast.

I'm not sure how Tolzien will work out, probably be another Shaun Hill, effective backup. I was hoping we'd draft Ponder, but knew he wouldn't fall, so my realistic alternative was Stanzi. He's not looking that good either.

I made a point in a different thread that I did not see much (if any) progress from Kaep, game 1 to game 4-wise on pocket-passing discipline vice his urge to tuck the ball in and start scrambling.

We all know from his college days that he is a fine scrambler, but NFL defensive coordinators (and their NFL-level players) WILL make him pass from the pocket.

Until he gets in some playing time during the regular season, the best situation to hone his pocket passing awareness is in preseason games under live conditions. You just dont get that during team practice sessions.

From his rather extensive body or work this preseason, I did not see that developmental progress.

Agreed, he made little or no progress, but in all fairness, the oline was parting like the Red Sea before Moses. If he isn't any better next year, then you have to worry. To me, he is Alex Smith v2.0, maybe a little less intelligent and a little more athletic. He does have a qb expert for a coach, so he does have a few things working in his favor.
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Originally posted by Otter:
I didn't want the team to draft Kaepernick. Didn't play against the best competition in college, played in a gimmick offense, and we knew he'd be a project. I expect him to be a bust. Hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow as that would mean the team is winning with him leading. I'm just not hopeful. It was interesting to watch Kaepernick scramble in the preseason games. He would take off and start looking to turn the corner upfield, only to encounter the opposing linebackers. That didn't happen in college, he could outrun the competition. That was a good lesson for him to learn, NFL linebackers are fast.

I'm not sure how Tolzien will work out, probably be another Shaun Hill, effective backup. I was hoping we'd draft Ponder, but knew he wouldn't fall, so my realistic alternative was Stanzi. He's not looking that good either.

I made a point in a different thread that I did not see much (if any) progress from Kaep, game 1 to game 4-wise on pocket-passing discipline vice his urge to tuck the ball in and start scrambling.

We all know from his college days that he is a fine scrambler, but NFL defensive coordinators (and their NFL-level players) WILL make him pass from the pocket.

Until he gets in some playing time during the regular season, the best situation to hone his pocket passing awareness is in preseason games under live conditions. You just dont get that during team practice sessions.

From his rather extensive body of work this preseason, I did not see that developmental progress.
Still, I have to say rookie Kaep looked better than rookie Alex Smith in preseason. There's hope.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Originally posted by Otter:

I didn't want the team to draft Kaepernick. Didn't play against the best competition in college, played in a gimmick offense, and we knew he'd be a project. I expect him to be a bust. Hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow as that would mean the team is winning with him leading. I'm just not hopeful. It was interesting to watch Kaepernick scramble in the preseason games. He would take off and start looking to turn the corner upfield, only to encounter the opposing linebackers. That didn't happen in college, he could outrun the competition. That was a good lesson for him to learn, NFL linebackers are fast.

I'm not sure how Tolzien will work out, probably be another Shaun Hill, effective backup. I was hoping we'd draft Ponder, but knew he wouldn't fall, so my realistic alternative was Stanzi. He's not looking that good either.

I made a point in a different thread that I did not see much (if any) progress from Kaep, game 1 to game 4-wise on pocket-passing discipline vice his urge to tuck the ball in and start scrambling.

We all know from his college days that he is a fine scrambler, but NFL defensive coordinators (and their NFL-level players) WILL make him pass from the pocket.

Until he gets in some playing time during the regular season, the best situation to hone his pocket passing awareness is in preseason games under live conditions. You just dont get that during team practice sessions.

From his rather extensive body of work this preseason, I did not see that developmental progress.
Still, I have to say rookie Kaep looked better than rookie Alex Smith in preseason. There's hope.

This teams second string players could probably whoop up on that 05 squad.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Originally posted by Otter:
I didn't want the team to draft Kaepernick. Didn't play against the best competition in college, played in a gimmick offense, and we knew he'd be a project. I expect him to be a bust. Hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow as that would mean the team is winning with him leading. I'm just not hopeful. It was interesting to watch Kaepernick scramble in the preseason games. He would take off and start looking to turn the corner upfield, only to encounter the opposing linebackers. That didn't happen in college, he could outrun the competition. That was a good lesson for him to learn, NFL linebackers are fast.

I'm not sure how Tolzien will work out, probably be another Shaun Hill, effective backup. I was hoping we'd draft Ponder, but knew he wouldn't fall, so my realistic alternative was Stanzi. He's not looking that good either.

I made a point in a different thread that I did not see much (if any) progress from Kaep, game 1 to game 4-wise on pocket-passing discipline vice his urge to tuck the ball in and start scrambling.

We all know from his college days that he is a fine scrambler, but NFL defensive coordinators (and their NFL-level players) WILL make him pass from the pocket.

Until he gets in some playing time during the regular season, the best situation to hone his pocket passing awareness is in preseason games under live conditions. You just dont get that during team practice sessions.

From his rather extensive body or work this preseason, I did not see that developmental progress.

Agreed, he made little or no progress, but in all fairness, the oline was parting like the Red Sea before Moses. If he isn't any better next year, then you have to worry. To me, he is Alex Smith v2.0, maybe a little less intelligent and a little more athletic. He does have a qb expert for a coach, so he does have a few things working in his favor.


True. But those instances where it was a jailbreak to the QB (and there were many in Game 1 and 3) - I threw those out. Can't do nothing there.
I specifically looked for instances where he had a modicum of a pocket from a normal drop (not the 3 step ones) or from the shotgun, and looked at how he did as the pocket started collapsing fast with pressure that he can see directly in front of him or to his strongside.

He's shown lots of good things. He's a better natural touch passer on the short to intermediate routes than Alex ever will be. He's got a much stronger arm but I think he throws a much more catchable ball than Alex. WHEN he gets the ball out, it's usually on target other than giving it more loft or air on the deeper throws.
i can't imagine harb would draft a qb in round 2 that he didn't see as a player down the road. the kid has a high ceiling imo but is not a viable option this year.
Originally posted by Rizo:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by 80849er4life:
Kaepernick, hands down.....just look at this guy....his attitude toward the game.....the work ethic.....this guy wants to be great....and he'll get there.....TRUST IN JIM!!!


You know who else wanted to be great and was a great athlete...........wait for it.....................Taylor Mays.

Kaep is not Mays. (Nuff Said)
yep yep....you gotta have upside to be great.....wait for it....Mays didnt have any.....
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Here's one comparison:

Tolzien, at least one time in the game (and this whole preseason) completed a pass while in the pocket under heavy pressure, guys in his face, and hit as he released the throw.

I don't think I had seen Kaep at anytime during the preseason (and he has played extensively) do the same, much less attempt a pass under the same conditions. He's either gotten sacked or he's scrambled out. I could be wrong, but I don't think I saw anything in the Saints, Raiders, or Chargers game. (Not sure about the Texans game).

I just think that is one more indication of how Tolzien may be just a little more ahead of Kaep in their NFL QB development, in terms of read progression, standing tall in the pocket, and getting the ball off within the designed pass play.

There is absolutely no doubt that Tolzien is a more NFL ready qb. Colin might be a better athlete, but I would have more confidence in Tolzien right now if one of them had to start, even if Gore...

I agree with both of you that Tolzien is more NFL ready at this point and after he learns the offense I would have more confidence in Tolzien. One thing about Harbaugh is that he will coach them both up and the best one will see the field regardless of whether they were drafted or not. Now we will see if Alex Smith can be coached upward and if the team around him can keep him healthy.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Originally posted by Otter:

I didn't want the team to draft Kaepernick. Didn't play against the best competition in college, played in a gimmick offense, and we knew he'd be a project. I expect him to be a bust. Hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly eat crow as that would mean the team is winning with him leading. I'm just not hopeful. It was interesting to watch Kaepernick scramble in the preseason games. He would take off and start looking to turn the corner upfield, only to encounter the opposing linebackers. That didn't happen in college, he could outrun the competition. That was a good lesson for him to learn, NFL linebackers are fast.

I'm not sure how Tolzien will work out, probably be another Shaun Hill, effective backup. I was hoping we'd draft Ponder, but knew he wouldn't fall, so my realistic alternative was Stanzi. He's not looking that good either.

I made a point in a different thread that I did not see much (if any) progress from Kaep, game 1 to game 4-wise on pocket-passing discipline vice his urge to tuck the ball in and start scrambling.

We all know from his college days that he is a fine scrambler, but NFL defensive coordinators (and their NFL-level players) WILL make him pass from the pocket.

Until he gets in some playing time during the regular season, the best situation to hone his pocket passing awareness is in preseason games under live conditions. You just dont get that during team practice sessions.

From his rather extensive body of work this preseason, I did not see that developmental progress.
Still, I have to say rookie Kaep looked better than rookie Alex Smith in preseason. There's hope.

This teams second string players could probably whoop up on that 05 squad.

I don't know. The only weakness at OL that year was Kwame. Battle = Morgan and we all have seen what Lloyd can do. Gore is Gore even though he was a backup. You can say our OC was better in 2005 since he has a ring to prove it.

This offensive talent in 2011 appears to be talented, but it is still unproven.
Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't know. The only weakness at OL that year was Kwame. Battle = Morgan and we all have seen what Lloyd can do. Gore is Gore even though he was a backup. You can say our OC was better in 2005 since he has a ring to prove it.

This offensive talent in 2011 appears to be talented, but it is still unproven.

you must be forgetting Anthony Clement. and the other starting WR was Morton.
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't know. The only weakness at OL that year was Kwame. Battle = Morgan and we all have seen what Lloyd can do. Gore is Gore even though he was a backup. You can say our OC was better in 2005 since he has a ring to prove it.

This offensive talent in 2011 appears to be talented, but it is still unproven.

you must be forgetting Anthony Clement. and the other starting WR was Morton.
2005 4 different QB's played: 48 sacks
2010 2 QB's palyed: 44 sacks

2005 Rushing: 3.9 but Gore had 4.8
2010 rushing: 4.1 Gore had 4.2

The teams weren't that far off. Kaep may not have looked great in preseason, but he sure looked better than rookie Alex Smith who would not let the ball go.
How San Diego let Tolzein go is beyond me. When we all saw him he looked super. The one very best tool for a QB with no OL is to get rid of the ball ...and fast. That is a great equalizer for a Qb lacking OL blocking. Sure seems like a good fit for us...besides the fact he looked like a more polished qB than what we already had. As for the comment about JH making alex his qb this yr, that is a no brainer. He knows the O, knows the players (except braylon), and with a good coach i fully expect alex to play world's better than he has before. He never complained about having to throw passes with a 5 step drop...or worse with a 7 stepper, knowing full well he was going to get creamed, and often the pass not even thrown, let alone not completed. I am absolutely certain JH will not make him do stupid stuff like that this yr unless and until the OL can block for him. With the strike shortened yr, any team with a starting qb from the previous yr is way ahead of teams with new qbs. Watch Cam newton lay an egg...frequently. this isn't college.

As far as Kap vs tolzien, what a great problem for us to have. One or the other is going to excel under JH, and we just have to wait to see who it is. My money is on Tolzien, but we still have a long way to go for that to happen. Wouldn't it be great if they both played well under JH.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
How San Diego let Tolzein go is beyond me. When we all saw him he looked super. The one very best tool for a QB with no OL is to get rid of the ball ...and fast. That is a great equalizer for a Qb lacking OL blocking. Sure seems like a good fit for us...besides the fact he looked like a more polished qB than what we already had. As for the comment about JH making alex his qb this yr, that is a no brainer. He knows the O, knows the players (except braylon), and with a good coach i fully expect alex to play world's better than he has before. He never complained about having to throw passes with a 5 step drop...or worse with a 7 stepper, knowing full well he was going to get creamed, and often the pass not even thrown, let alone not completed. I am absolutely certain JH will not make him do stupid stuff like that this yr unless and until the OL can block for him. With the strike shortened yr, any team with a starting qb from the previous yr is way ahead of teams with new qbs. Watch Cam newton lay an egg...frequently. this isn't college.

As far as Kap vs tolzien, what a great problem for us to have. One or the other is going to excel under JH, and we just have to wait to see who it is. My money is on Tolzien, but we still have a long way to go for that to happen. Wouldn't it be great if they both played well under JH.

It would be even better if all our QB's played better under Harbaugh. I expect they will.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't know. The only weakness at OL that year was Kwame. Battle = Morgan and we all have seen what Lloyd can do. Gore is Gore even though he was a backup. You can say our OC was better in 2005 since he has a ring to prove it.

This offensive talent in 2011 appears to be talented, but it is still unproven.

you must be forgetting Anthony Clement. and the other starting WR was Morton.
2005 4 different QB's played: 48 sacks
2010 2 QB's palyed: 44 sacks

2005 Rushing: 3.9 but Gore had 4.8
2010 rushing: 4.1 Gore had 4.2

The teams weren't that far off. Kaep may not have looked great in preseason, but he sure looked better than rookie Alex Smith who would not let the ball go.

SO you are saying that Alex Smith was a giant sized turd, and Kaep was a medium sized turd with a few sprinkles mixed in?

Turd is Turd.