There are 96 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

How good is the 49ers Defense?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by PiratePete:
Everyone is missing the point here. Without an offense the 49ers finished the 13th ranked defense. My stance is that if the Niners get a consisten flow on offense then our defense will benefit the most. We could have easily been a top 10 defense last year will just a little bit of help on offense.

Can we improve? of course.
Are we above avg on defense? I think so.

Above avg = Good?

Your point is valid but the 13th ranking is very misleading b/c it’s based on total yards (only). We were a defense that could NOT get off the field on 3rd downs and consequently, bled to death slowly. Manusky’s “keep everything in front of you” defense meant CB’s were playing far off, LBers were in coverage, there was no pass rush, zero TO’s and really, in the end, we still lost…just slowly b/c the offense took what we gave them and that was small/medium chunks at a time not giving up a lot of “yards” per se.

Keep in mind too that the reverse is also true. If this “veteran” defense could carry the team or get off the field, the offense would have had many more chances to get into a rhythm and perhaps, develop chemistry and sustain drives. You can win a Superbowl with one super dominant unit (Colts or Ravens) but the other unit better be able to hold their own and right now, we can’t say that about either unit.

Thats a very big misconception among Niner fans. We actually allowed 3rd down conversions to be completed 39% of the time. Which is tied for 19th best in the NFL. Slightly below avg.

To your second point our defense did keep us in just about every game. We barely lost to stong playoff teams consistently last year. The offense could just never get it done. And the object of football in the end is to score points.
[ Edited by PiratePete on Jul 15, 2011 at 1:56 PM ]
Originally posted by PiratePete:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by PiratePete:
Everyone is missing the point here. Without an offense the 49ers finished the 13th ranked defense. My stance is that if the Niners get a consisten flow on offense then our defense will benefit the most. We could have easily been a top 10 defense last year will just a little bit of help on offense.

Can we improve? of course.
Are we above avg on defense? I think so.

Above avg = Good?

Your point is valid but the 13th ranking is very misleading b/c it’s based on total yards (only). We were a defense that could NOT get off the field on 3rd downs and consequently, bled to death slowly. Manusky’s “keep everything in front of you” defense meant CB’s were playing far off, LBers were in coverage, there was no pass rush, zero TO’s and really, in the end, we still lost…just slowly b/c the offense took what we gave them and that was small/medium chunks at a time not giving up a lot of “yards” per se.

Keep in mind too that the reverse is also true. If this “veteran” defense could carry the team or get off the field, the offense would have had many more chances to get into a rhythm and perhaps, develop chemistry and sustain drives. You can win a Superbowl with one super dominant unit (Colts or Ravens) but the other unit better be able to hold their own and right now, we can’t say that about either unit.

Thats a very big misconception among Niner fans. We actually allowed 3rd down conversions to be completed 39% of the time. Which is tied for 19th best in the NFL. Slightly below avg.

To your second point our defense did keep us in just about every game. We barely lost to stong playoff teams consistently last year. The offense could just never get it done. And the object of football in the end is to score points.

Thanks for the clarification..hopefully the fans read it! That said, how many teams even needed a 3rd down on us with the secondary playing 15 yards off? Include all the mental errors, blown chances to close out games, lack of TO's, pass rush, etc. average we are...at best. And really, 5 years in the same defense with the same DC, same personnel inclduing big-named FA, first round draft picks and some FA starters who played better with us, this defense should not be average on any level. How many categories are we below average esp. compared to top 3-4 teams? Again, Manusky's goal was to keep it close but usually by the second half teams had already taken control and ran out the clock from my memory and we certainly could not close out a game. You don't think some teams played down to us knowing they only needed to build a lead b/c the offense can't score and the defense will bleed to death slowly anyhow? Game-planning for our offense and defense must have been a laugher in the film room.

But any way we slice it, this defense needed to be held accountable no matter what the offense did or didn't do. I certainly don't want to discount the affects the offense had on the defense but I don't want to ignore the reverse as well b/c after all, our offense had much lower expectations coming into the season and the defensexcuses ran out about two/three years ago IMHO.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:14 PM ]
The 49er offense only had 945 plays from scrimmage. Only 4 teams had less plays from scrimmage(Ten, Cle, Chi, ARI). Thats certainly not helping, and only hurting our defense. Look at the top 5 defenses in the NFL and you will see they all have good offenses(in the top 14). And Pitt wouldnt have been ranked 14 if big Ben didnt have to serve that 4 game suspension. They would have been a top 10 offense. Thats not a coincedence.

The best defense is a great offense!
[ Edited by PiratePete on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:29 PM ]
Well good thing we brought in some offensive-minded coaches! Many fans seem to underrate the importance of development and scheme. I don't think our personnel is crap by any means. We have sucked at implementing clever schemes that bring out the better qualities of our players. Nolan and Singletary didn't have a clue on how to attack weaknesses or adjust things on the move. I really don't expect that to happen with Harbaugh, Roman, or Fangio.
Originally posted by PiratePete:
The 49er offense only had 945 plays from scrimmage. Only 4 teams had less plays from scrimmage(Ten, Cle, Chi, ARI). Thats certainly not helping, and only hurting our defense. Look at the top 5 defenses in the NFL and you will see they all have good offenses(in the top 14). And Pitt wouldnt have been ranked 14 if big Ben didnt have to serve that 4 game suspension. They would have been a top 10 offense. Thats not a coincedence.

The best defense is a great offense!

LOL...don't think "anyone" in SF would argue that! BUT let's not forget that our championship teams also had top notch defenses too!
Defense > Offense

But I'm not sure any part of our team played consistently well enough to be considered "good".
Originally posted by PiratePete:
The 49er offense only had 945 plays from scrimmage. Only 4 teams had less plays from scrimmage(Ten, Cle, Chi, ARI). Thats certainly not helping, and only hurting our defense. Look at the top 5 defenses in the NFL and you will see they all have good offenses(in the top 14). And Pitt wouldnt have been ranked 14 if big Ben didnt have to serve that 4 game suspension. They would have been a top 10 offense. Thats not a coincedence.

The best defense is a great offense!

I hear what you're saying, but our defense is a bend but dont break, low turnover defense. Rarely did our O work with a short field and over the last couple of years they haven't held an offense when it was needed (Indy, Vikings, Saints, Falcons)....get the point?
One of the better front 7's in the league and an average secondary....and still finishes in the top half of the nfl without a good pass rush and secondary play = good on D but not very good. Once we actually get either more pass rush, a better cb or offense that can hold the ball more than 3 and outs = TOP 10 D for sure AND again at least we are not Dallas on D

But then again some people love dallas' 31st ranked D as much or better than the niners D HAHA.
It's a good defense that would be amongst the top 5 if we had a steady offense. Hopefully, they can get the west coast somewhat in place this year and that will take a lot of pressure of the D and alow us to "pin the ears back"
J-
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by PiratePete:
The 49er offense only had 945 plays from scrimmage. Only 4 teams had less plays from scrimmage(Ten, Cle, Chi, ARI). Thats certainly not helping, and only hurting our defense. Look at the top 5 defenses in the NFL and you will see they all have good offenses(in the top 14). And Pitt wouldnt have been ranked 14 if big Ben didnt have to serve that 4 game suspension. They would have been a top 10 offense. Thats not a coincedence.

The best defense is a great offense!

I hear what you're saying, but our defense is a bend but dont break, low turnover defense. Rarely did our O work with a short field and over the last couple of years they haven't held an offense when it was needed (Indy, Vikings, Saints, Falcons)....get the point?

But again I primarily blame that on the offense as well. We never played with a lead so we never got to take many chances. We had to play conservatively and not give up the big play. If the offense could give us a two score lead every once in a while we would be able to open up the playbook and really go after it.

I dont know the exact stat, but I`d bet the Niners have the worst offense in the NFL over the past 8 years combined. Thats just not going to ever get it done.

The fact that the Niners actually finished with the 13th ranked defense is actually amazing to me!
Originally posted by PiratePete:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by PiratePete:
The 49er offense only had 945 plays from scrimmage. Only 4 teams had less plays from scrimmage(Ten, Cle, Chi, ARI). Thats certainly not helping, and only hurting our defense. Look at the top 5 defenses in the NFL and you will see they all have good offenses(in the top 14). And Pitt wouldnt have been ranked 14 if big Ben didnt have to serve that 4 game suspension. They would have been a top 10 offense. Thats not a coincedence.

The best defense is a great offense!

I hear what you're saying, but our defense is a bend but dont break, low turnover defense. Rarely did our O work with a short field and over the last couple of years they haven't held an offense when it was needed (Indy, Vikings, Saints, Falcons)....get the point?

But again I primarily blame that on the offense as well. We never played with a lead so we never got to take many chances. We had to play conservatively and not give up the big play. If the offense could give us a two score lead every once in a while we would be able to open up the playbook and really go after it.

I dont know the exact stat, but I`d bet the Niners have the worst offense in the NFL over the past 8 years combined. Thats just not going to ever get it done.

The fact that the Niners actually finished with the 13th ranked defense is actually amazing to me!

Or, like last year, every time we tried to get agress we got screened to death until we were forced to back off. That's a big reason why I think our sack stats went way down hill. The defense we started with in 2010 was not the defense we ended with, that's for sure.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I just hope we make the playoffs this year.
[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Jul 16, 2011 at 10:57 AM ]
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by PiratePete:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by PiratePete:
The 49er offense only had 945 plays from scrimmage. Only 4 teams had less plays from scrimmage(Ten, Cle, Chi, ARI). Thats certainly not helping, and only hurting our defense. Look at the top 5 defenses in the NFL and you will see they all have good offenses(in the top 14). And Pitt wouldnt have been ranked 14 if big Ben didnt have to serve that 4 game suspension. They would have been a top 10 offense. Thats not a coincedence.

The best defense is a great offense!

I hear what you're saying, but our defense is a bend but dont break, low turnover defense. Rarely did our O work with a short field and over the last couple of years they haven't held an offense when it was needed (Indy, Vikings, Saints, Falcons)....get the point?

But again I primarily blame that on the offense as well. We never played with a lead so we never got to take many chances. We had to play conservatively and not give up the big play. If the offense could give us a two score lead every once in a while we would be able to open up the playbook and really go after it.

I dont know the exact stat, but I`d bet the Niners have the worst offense in the NFL over the past 8 years combined. Thats just not going to ever get it done.

The fact that the Niners actually finished with the 13th ranked defense is actually amazing to me!

Or, like last year, every time we tried to get agress we got screened to death until we were forced to back off. That's a big reason why I think our sack stats went way down hill. The defense we started with in 2010 was not the defense we ended with, that's for sure.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I just hope we make the playoffs this year.

Thats a very good point, We were a horrible screen team last year. And in that regard our defense was very poor. KC just killed us with the short toss and screen game. It was hard to watch!
  • dmax
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,048
Our defense is bad

We dont have a lockdown cb
we dont have a "sackmaster" to go after the qb

We lost 3 games lastyear because of this pisspoor Manusky's "bend dont break" defense. Those games would have gotten us to the playoffs

For cornerback we should be at Nahmdi's front porch next week giving him what he wants to become a niner. If that doesnt work how about ike taylor from the steelers?

Maybe have brooks start and have him go after the qb. I like what i saw lastseaon
[ Edited by dmax on Jul 19, 2011 at 10:14 AM ]
  • dmax
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,048
Originally posted by PiratePete:
The 49er offense only had 945 plays from scrimmage. Only 4 teams had less plays from scrimmage(Ten, Cle, Chi, ARI). Thats certainly not helping, and only hurting our defense. Look at the top 5 defenses in the NFL and you will see they all have good offenses(in the top 14). And Pitt wouldnt have been ranked 14 if big Ben didnt have to serve that 4 game suspension. They would have been a top 10 offense. Thats not a coincedence.

The best defense is a great offense!

thats why we got an offensive minded coach now,thank you jesus