There are 163 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

The Official Harbaugh Era QB competition!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

You know I could create similar breakdowns for some of the biggest busts in football history, right? I didn't know SF was a charity.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

You know I could create similar breakdowns for some of the biggest busts in football history, right? I didn't know SF was a charity.

Yes, and you could point out players who were very good or excellent who went through the same thing! Plunkett at NE is my favorite because he was a number one and people talked about the wasted pick, the loser...not sure they were prone to calling him garbage, but you get the point. You seem totally unable to see any truth in circumstances...very black and white in your judgements. And once again, if they can find someone better by all means.

Some people think you just cut a guy and hope for the best. That's not a very effective way to run a team unless the guy is an instigator ungainst coaches or refuses to work--neither being the case with Smith. Would I trade for Peyton or Brady? Sure, but that's not an option in the real world.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:48 AM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

You know I could create similar breakdowns for some of the biggest busts in football history, right? I didn't know SF was a charity.

Yes, and you could point out players who were very good or excellent who went through the same thing! Plunkett at NE is my favorite because he was a number one and people talked about the wasted pick, the loser...not sure they were prone to calling him garbage, but you get the point. You seem totally unable to see any truth in circumstances...very black and white in your judgements. And once again, if they can find someone better by all means.

Some people think you just cut a guy and hope for the best. That's not a very effective way to run a team unless the guy is an instigator ungainst coaches or refuses to work--neither being the case with Smith. Would I trade for Peyton or Brady? Sure, but that's not an option in the real world.

Plunkett is the one guy who got his career back on track out of 1000's of QB's who failed. What's your point?

Of course I see truth in circumstances...and I'm not black and white in my stance about Alex. I am a FAN who is sick and tired of the ineptitude at the QB position. I don't care how bad Alex has had it. I don't know how many times I have to say that he had a crappy situation and not all the blame is to be put on him. But, with that said, it's been 6 years, time to move on to someone ELSE! You're the type of person who likes to give people several chances, I'm the type of person who likes t cut his losses and move on. That's what most teams do in the NFL...and you pick Plunkett...a guy who bounced around the league and had a couple good seasons out of a 15 season career and didn't go to a single pro bowl. He won a couple pro bowls with a stacked team. Frankly, I don't want the next Jim Plunkett.

Meh
Originally posted by JayBee:


Plunkett is the one guy who got his career back on track out of 1000's of QB's who failed. What's your point?

Of course I see truth in circumstances...and I'm not black and white in my stance about Alex. I am a FAN who is sick and tired of the ineptitude at the QB position. I don't care how bad Alex has had it. I don't know how many times I have to say that he had a crappy situation and not all the blame is to be put on him. But, with that said, it's been 6 years, time to move on to someone ELSE! You're the type of person who likes to give people several chances, I'm the type of person who likes t cut his losses and move on. That's what most teams do in the NFL...and you pick Plunkett...a guy who bounced around the league and had a couple good seasons out of a 15 season career and didn't go to a single pro bowl. He won a couple pro bowls with a stacked team. Frankly, I don't want the next Jim Plunkett.

Meh

In almost every thread about Smith I have made a point of wanting the coaches to go out and find the best QBs they can. You claim I want to give Smith another chance...yeah, to compete for the job. If there is someone better great. Cut your losses and move on only works if you move on to something better, not just different.

Plunkett was the MVP of Super Bowl XV on that stacked team you mentioned. I would take a young Jim Plunkett. Or an Archie Manning (never), Fran Tarkenton (4th), Jim Kelly (5th), Dan Fouts (9th) or John Elway (11th) some QBs who are considered good to great who did not do well early in their careers. Some did very well later in their careers while some stayed on bad teams and did not.
What we seem to be going through in some of the recent posts... are extents.

We all know that other QBs have had struggles.... obstacles... from poor OLs to poor coaching... to lousy offensive weapons.... from injuries. It is our job and/or prerogative as individuals to place a specific level of extent on these obstacles.

Player X had a few of his many years that consisted of coaching changes.

Player Y had a few of his many years that consisted of poor OL performance... OR.... poor coaching... OR.... offensive weapons.... OR....

Player Z has had a consistent collaboration of poor OL... AND.... coaching changes... AND .... poor scheme implementation... AND... etc.


Sure, we can say that in some years due to various reasons, players have obstacles that we would all like to see get hurdled in heroic fashion. I still can not think of ONE other player.... mayyyybeee Archie Manning.... that has had such a horrendous collaboration of these obstacles... and pretty much all together and at once.

How ridiculous for any of us to demand and expect any poorly developed QB to hurdle all of these obstacles. It is misdirected blame and anger, people.

... and again for the record, I was sick to my stomach when we drafted Alex #1 overall in 2005. Hated it... an unworthy prospect at #1 overall.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

well, if you want evidence re how good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback, michael vick never had a 1qb rating higher than 82 before falling in with andy reid and marty mohrinweig last year...his rating was 100
I am confident that harbaugh and roman can improve alex smith in a similar manner
Originally posted by hofer36:


well, if you want evidence re how good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback, michael vick never had a 1qb rating higher than 82 before falling in with andy reid and marty mohrinweig last year...his rating was 100
I am confident that harbaugh and roman can improve alex smith in a similar manner

Great example, and more current than my attempts! Hope you are correct regarding Smith so that the 9ers can be back on top where they belong!
Honestly, I hope he does well. I fear those first games against SEA and DAL because he is on very thin ice with the fans. He better find a way to win those games. I care less about his QB rating than I do about getting wins. Good QB's get wins, bad QB's don't.

I understand the emphasis of team sports, but at some point, he has to "make plays" that put the team in a position to win. Some believe new coaching will help him and I sure hope they are right.
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

well, if you want evidence re how good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback, michael vick never had a 1qb rating higher than 82 before falling in with andy reid and marty mohrinweig last year...his rating was 100
I am confident that harbaugh and roman can improve alex smith in a similar manner

Right, the same Mike Vick that said he didn't even try in Atlanta? The Mike Vick that didn't take football seriously? The same one that didn't even study the playbook?

Mike Vick's success with the Eagles is a result of taking football seriously and getting his a.ss in gear. Playing with Reid deff helps....along with McNabb. But why is it that there's such a drop off between Vick and Kolb? Is it coaching or ability?

If you think a good coach can turn ANY QB into a pro bowler, you should stop watching football.

Why was Warner able to play so well in Arizona but Anderson stunk in the same system, with the same coaches and same players? Are you going to blame coaching on that one too?

Coaching can only do so much.

I'll up this thread in week 5.
[ Edited by JayBee on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:40 AM ]
Originally posted by SJniner7:
Honestly, I hope he does well. I fear those first games against SEA and DAL because he is on very thin ice with the fans. He better find a way to win those games. I care less about his QB rating than I do about getting wins. Good QB's get wins, bad QB's don't.

I understand the emphasis of team sports, but at some point, he has to "make plays" that put the team in a position to win. Some believe new coaching will help him and I sure hope they are right.

Pretty much.

It's a team sport but some PIECES are more important than others.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

well, if you want evidence re how good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback, michael vick never had a 1qb rating higher than 82 before falling in with andy reid and marty mohrinweig last year...his rating was 100
I am confident that harbaugh and roman can improve alex smith in a similar manner

Right, the same Mike Vick that said he didn't even try in Atlanta? The Mike Vick that didn't take football seriously? The same one that didn't even study the playbook?

Mike Vick's success with the Eagles is a result of taking football seriously and getting his a.ss in gear. Playing with Reid deff helps....along with McNabb. But why is it that there's such a drop off between Vick and Kolb? Is it coaching or ability?

If you think a good coach can turn ANY QB into a pro bowler, you should stop watching football.

Why was Warner able to play so well in Arizona but Anderson stunk in the same system, with the same coaches and same players? Are you going to blame coaching on that one too?

Coaching can only do so much.

I'll up this thread in week 5.

it makes it easier in a discussion or debate to misstate your opponents argument or statements, and then argue from that rather than what was actually said...lawyers do it all the time...

where did anyone say "..a good coach can turn ANY QB into a probowler..." or anything close to that....the comment that was actually stated was that good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback...misstating what was said is wrong, even if it fuels your anti smith vitrol....

fact is that good coaching and innovative game plans will make a marked improvement in Smith's play...... one thing I've noticed in watching guys like Brady and Peyton Manning, and even Stanford/Luck last year, is that they are more times than not throwing to receivers who have created seperation and gotten very open...I have not seen that consistently with the niners since terrell owens left....sure manning and brady and even luck are great because they can pinpoint the passes when the receiver is tightly covered, but more times than not they have receivers who get open, due to the abilities of the receivers and to the game plans

I think we will see more open recivers this yer due to the harbaugh/roman game plans..they will create seperation through motion ad exploiting mismatches, something the niners have not done alot of recently
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

well, if you want evidence re how good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback, michael vick never had a 1qb rating higher than 82 before falling in with andy reid and marty mohrinweig last year...his rating was 100
I am confident that harbaugh and roman can improve alex smith in a similar manner

Right, the same Mike Vick that said he didn't even try in Atlanta? The Mike Vick that didn't take football seriously? The same one that didn't even study the playbook?

Mike Vick's success with the Eagles is a result of taking football seriously and getting his a.ss in gear. Playing with Reid deff helps....along with McNabb. But why is it that there's such a drop off between Vick and Kolb? Is it coaching or ability?

If you think a good coach can turn ANY QB into a pro bowler, you should stop watching football.

Why was Warner able to play so well in Arizona but Anderson stunk in the same system, with the same coaches and same players? Are you going to blame coaching on that one too?

Coaching can only do so much.

I'll up this thread in week 5.

it makes it easier in a discussion or debate to misstate your opponents argument or statements, and then argue from that rather than what was actually said...lawyers do it all the time...

where did anyone say "..a good coach can turn ANY QB into a probowler..." or anything close to that....the comment that was actually stated was that good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback...misstating what was said is wrong, even if it fuels your anti smith vitrol....

fact is that good coaching and innovative game plans will make a marked improvement in Smith's play...... one thing I've noticed in watching guys like Brady and Peyton Manning, and even Stanford/Luck last year, is that they are more times than not throwing to receivers who have created seperation and gotten very open...I have not seen that consistently with the niners since terrell owens left....sure manning and brady and even luck are great because they can pinpoint the passes when the receiver is tightly covered, but more times than not they have receivers who get open, due to the abilities of the receivers and to the game plans

I think we will see more open recivers this yer due to the harbaugh/roman game plans..they will create seperation through motion ad exploiting mismatches, something the niners have not done alot of recently

I will no longer speak on Alex. I'll let his play do the talking. There's no point arguing with those who support him....there's a bias around here and that's fine. I'll wait till he actually plays a game first...and laugh at the new excuses created for him.

toodles
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

well, if you want evidence re how good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback, michael vick never had a 1qb rating higher than 82 before falling in with andy reid and marty mohrinweig last year...his rating was 100
I am confident that harbaugh and roman can improve alex smith in a similar manner

Right, the same Mike Vick that said he didn't even try in Atlanta? The Mike Vick that didn't take football seriously? The same one that didn't even study the playbook?

Mike Vick's success with the Eagles is a result of taking football seriously and getting his a.ss in gear. Playing with Reid deff helps....along with McNabb. But why is it that there's such a drop off between Vick and Kolb? Is it coaching or ability?

If you think a good coach can turn ANY QB into a pro bowler, you should stop watching football.

Why was Warner able to play so well in Arizona but Anderson stunk in the same system, with the same coaches and same players? Are you going to blame coaching on that one too?

Coaching can only do so much.

I'll up this thread in week 5.

it makes it easier in a discussion or debate to misstate your opponents argument or statements, and then argue from that rather than what was actually said...lawyers do it all the time...

where did anyone say "..a good coach can turn ANY QB into a probowler..." or anything close to that....the comment that was actually stated was that good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback...misstating what was said is wrong, even if it fuels your anti smith vitrol....

fact is that good coaching and innovative game plans will make a marked improvement in Smith's play...... one thing I've noticed in watching guys like Brady and Peyton Manning, and even Stanford/Luck last year, is that they are more times than not throwing to receivers who have created seperation and gotten very open...I have not seen that consistently with the niners since terrell owens left....sure manning and brady and even luck are great because they can pinpoint the passes when the receiver is tightly covered, but more times than not they have receivers who get open, due to the abilities of the receivers and to the game plans

I think we will see more open recivers this yer due to the harbaugh/roman game plans..they will create seperation through motion ad exploiting mismatches, something the niners have not done alot of recently

I will no longer speak on Alex. I'll let his play do the talking. There's no point arguing with those who support him....there's a bias around here and that's fine. I'll wait till he actually plays a game first...and laugh at the new excuses created for him.

toodles

20 bux they blame JH and Roman when Smith still sucks
Originally posted by jimmy49erfan:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:


Re-read what I typed. The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning is not coaching. I think some of you rely way too much on coaching (probably because it's all you have left). You can't just pick any old bum off the street and coach em up to be great. There's a reason why some QB's get picked #1 and others get picked #200th in the draft. You have to be coachable, you have to have ability, you have to have intelligence, drive, good football sense, etc... A coach can only do so much. A coach isn't going to throw the ball for you or coach you up to be a leader or to have guts. That comes from within.

Explain where I said coaching can't help a QB???? Of course it can...but it can only do so much. I'm getting really tired of people saying Alex had crap coaching. There aren't too many QB's that had the chance to work with the caliber of OC's Alex has worked with in 3 of his 1st 4 years. You think Sing had a hand in the drills that Alex won? When Martz told Alex to work on his mechanics...you think Nolan interjected and told Martz to STFU? LOL. It's excuse after excuse.

All of a sudden a QB guru head coach is required for a QB to be successful. Well how many QB guru head coaches are there in the league? Why are other QB's successful with defensive minded head coaches? Alex supporters just jump from one excuse to another...from "he needs to be in the same system for more than a year" to "even though Alex had his best statistical seasons with Raye...he's the worst OC in history"....and now to "He needs an offensive minded coach to be successful". Well, when he falters...what will be the excuse? The lockout? Crabtree's sore feet?

All this crap will finally end after this season. Thank God.

J-I realize that you are reponding to posts from various people but you keep ignoring the arguments and going back to statements that have been under question. You seem to be making legitimate arguments, which is why you get many responses...a good thing I would think.

1st year--good OC (McCarthy, perhaps a better HC than OC), Rookie pops in and out of the lineup.
2nd year--good OC (Turner, one of the best) Smith progresses adequately
3rd year--terrible OC (Hostler-so good he is now the WR coach for Balt) nuff said
4th year--odd (Martz, good but irratic OC) Smith has broken shoulder but misdiagnosed
5th year--terrible OC (Raye, passed his prime as everyone in the stands knows the plays before he can get them to the huddle).
6th year--ditto, until Johnson gave Smith more liscense and he improved greatly.

You can't see any of this because these are excuses. Not reasons, not facts, not reality...but...excuses. I see them as mitigating circumstances that may have kept a QB from reaching his potential. We may see next year and, as always, I'm an optimist.

well, if you want evidence re how good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback, michael vick never had a 1qb rating higher than 82 before falling in with andy reid and marty mohrinweig last year...his rating was 100
I am confident that harbaugh and roman can improve alex smith in a similar manner

Right, the same Mike Vick that said he didn't even try in Atlanta? The Mike Vick that didn't take football seriously? The same one that didn't even study the playbook?

Mike Vick's success with the Eagles is a result of taking football seriously and getting his a.ss in gear. Playing with Reid deff helps....along with McNabb. But why is it that there's such a drop off between Vick and Kolb? Is it coaching or ability?

If you think a good coach can turn ANY QB into a pro bowler, you should stop watching football.

Why was Warner able to play so well in Arizona but Anderson stunk in the same system, with the same coaches and same players? Are you going to blame coaching on that one too?

Coaching can only do so much.

I'll up this thread in week 5.

it makes it easier in a discussion or debate to misstate your opponents argument or statements, and then argue from that rather than what was actually said...lawyers do it all the time...

where did anyone say "..a good coach can turn ANY QB into a probowler..." or anything close to that....the comment that was actually stated was that good coaching can bring better play out of a quarterback...misstating what was said is wrong, even if it fuels your anti smith vitrol....

fact is that good coaching and innovative game plans will make a marked improvement in Smith's play...... one thing I've noticed in watching guys like Brady and Peyton Manning, and even Stanford/Luck last year, is that they are more times than not throwing to receivers who have created seperation and gotten very open...I have not seen that consistently with the niners since terrell owens left....sure manning and brady and even luck are great because they can pinpoint the passes when the receiver is tightly covered, but more times than not they have receivers who get open, due to the abilities of the receivers and to the game plans

I think we will see more open recivers this yer due to the harbaugh/roman game plans..they will create seperation through motion ad exploiting mismatches, something the niners have not done alot of recently

I will no longer speak on Alex. I'll let his play do the talking. There's no point arguing with those who support him....there's a bias around here and that's fine. I'll wait till he actually plays a game first...and laugh at the new excuses created for him.

toodles

20 bux they blame JH and Roman when Smith still sucks

You are so right. its never his fault. one play can pretty much some up smiths career. The fumble against the eagles. Even rookies rarely make plays that stupid. He is not a good QB. Everyone thinks CK needs a few years, I say no way. We don't have that kind of time. Even if we rush Cap into the starting roll he will be better than smith. He has a football mind, attitude and instincts. those are things s**tbag I mean smith never had.
Originally posted by jimmy49erfan:

20 bux they blame JH and Roman when Smith still sucks

I see the "first year in the system, give him time" excuse arising more frequently. It will definitely be interesting