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Aldon Smith May Start Out As Nickel Rush Defensive End?

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'd just start Aldon Smith and let him loose on the QB. Travis LaBoy and Parys could be our NRDE's. Really would love to Lawson, I think him and Smith would make a solid duo at OLB.

Agreed, that would be a solid combo. Lawson might not be a premier pass rusher, but he is a really good linebacker.

Disagree...with Lawson starting and his proven inability to pass rush, teams will easily be able to focus on blocking and effectively neutralizing Aldon Smith no matter where he lines up esp. as a rookie. Like teams game-planned last year to block out Willis, it works. That's not to say scheme can't effectively help one dominant pass rusher ala Clay Matthews but Green Bay also has very very good play from the other eleven guys. That is why we need TWO effective pass rushers on the outside on every single down which will effectively open up things on the inside for Willis/Spikes and even the two DE's (may be McDonald/Smith now) AND equally important, allow the secondary to play tighter, more physical and focus on play-making and creating TO's. We do NOT want to be the most vanilla 3-4 defense ever again, do we?

Why do you assume the defense will be vanilla? Regardless of pass rush, which Lawson is mediocre at, he is a very good run stopper and above average in coverage. You do not want only pass rushes or you will see your defense getting gashed by draws and screen passes. It takes well rounded players to make a good d, not just pass rushers. Hopefully we see Willis blitzing more now that we have a supposedly more aggressive dc.

The defense for the last 3 years has be killed by draws and screen passes.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'd just start Aldon Smith and let him loose on the QB. Travis LaBoy and Parys could be our NRDE's. Really would love to Lawson, I think him and Smith would make a solid duo at OLB.

Agreed, that would be a solid combo. Lawson might not be a premier pass rusher, but he is a really good linebacker.

Disagree...with Lawson starting and his proven inability to pass rush, teams will easily be able to focus on blocking and effectively neutralizing Aldon Smith no matter where he lines up esp. as a rookie. Like teams game-planned last year to block out Willis, it works. That's not to say scheme can't effectively help one dominant pass rusher ala Clay Matthews but Green Bay also has very very good play from the other eleven guys. That is why we need TWO effective pass rushers on the outside on every single down which will effectively open up things on the inside for Willis/Spikes and even the two DE's (may be McDonald/Smith now) AND equally important, allow the secondary to play tighter, more physical and focus on play-making and creating TO's. We do NOT want to be the most vanilla 3-4 defense ever again, do we?

Why do you assume the defense will be vanilla? Regardless of pass rush, which Lawson is mediocre at, he is a very good run stopper and above average in coverage. You do not want only pass rushes or you will see your defense getting gashed by draws and screen passes. It takes well rounded players to make a good d, not just pass rushers. Hopefully we see Willis blitzing more now that we have a supposedly more aggressive dc.

B/c we have six years of evidence that Lawson is not a play maker at the play making position in a 3-4 defense. You are also making a large assumption that other pass rushing OLB's can't be effective run stoppers like Lawson and that simply is not fact. It's already widely noted by both Baalke and Fangio that "covergae" of an OLB will no longer be a priority and that pass rush en route to stopping the run is. So that leaves, Lawson, a part time player (b/c he couldn't pass rush on critical downs, hence the low # of snaps) who's very good against the run AND will have a ripple effect on Aldon Smith. That said, if we retain him and he magically earns his stripes under Fangio and his "attacking style of defense" I would be MORE then happy to admit I was wrong. But after six years, Lawson is one guy who has clearly demonstrated his skill set and is what he is. Other players we can clearly say have ?-marks next to them b/c we have yet to see them used properly, used enough or utilized better under aproperly run 3-4. You guys are picturing Lawson under a Nolan/Manusky defensive scheme where he was a decent fit but this is a whole new defensive scheme and you need to view it as such. Players such as Willis, TKO, Smith, Brooks, LaBoy, Gibson, even Haralson to a degree (attacking), you can see their skill sets and how they would fit Fangio's defense...can you REALLY say Lawson will suddenly become a better play maker at the play making position? Six years people, six years under the same DC's, scheme and 10 players. There are other players on this team who I feel will not fit a Fangio defense so don't think this is a personal attack on Lawson. Even so, it most likely will be Lawson who chooses to leave anyhow in FA.
Of course, we would benefit if we could get to training camp...

but given what I saw of Michael Crabtree in his rookie season, if a guy can make plays, there's no reason why a team can't put that guy in a position to make plays if they're smart about it.

(Of course, Crabtree's a special case. The guy was pretty well-polished coming out of college. Meanwhile, Aldon Smith IS a very raw rookie.)
Originally posted by Wubbie:
Of course, we would benefit if we could get to training camp...

but given what I saw of Michael Crabtree in his rookie season, if a guy can make plays, there's no reason why a team can't put that guy in a position to make plays if they're smart about it.

(Of course, Crabtree's a special case. The guy was pretty well-polished coming out of college. Meanwhile, Aldon Smith IS a very raw rookie.)

I agree BUT the one great thing is that he'll pretty much be asked to do one thing - attack from where ever Fangio lines him up at and use his God-given abilities to get there. He'll learn the intricacies as he goes (reading screens, knowing where all ten line up and their responsibilities, how to work off other's blocks, additional moves including the bull-rush and leverage, dropping correctly into a zone for a second or two on occasion, etc.)
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'd just start Aldon Smith and let him loose on the QB. Travis LaBoy and Parys could be our NRDE's. Really would love to Lawson, I think him and Smith would make a solid duo at OLB.

Agreed, that would be a solid combo. Lawson might not be a premier pass rusher, but he is a really good linebacker.

Disagree...with Lawson starting and his proven inability to pass rush, teams will easily be able to focus on blocking and effectively neutralizing Aldon Smith no matter where he lines up esp. as a rookie. Like teams game-planned last year to block out Willis, it works. That's not to say scheme can't effectively help one dominant pass rusher ala Clay Matthews but Green Bay also has very very good play from the other eleven guys. That is why we need TWO effective pass rushers on the outside on every single down which will effectively open up things on the inside for Willis/Spikes and even the two DE's (may be McDonald/Smith now) AND equally important, allow the secondary to play tighter, more physical and focus on play-making and creating TO's. We do NOT want to be the most vanilla 3-4 defense ever again, do we?

Why do you assume the defense will be vanilla? Regardless of pass rush, which Lawson is mediocre at, he is a very good run stopper and above average in coverage. You do not want only pass rushes or you will see your defense getting gashed by draws and screen passes. It takes well rounded players to make a good d, not just pass rushers. Hopefully we see Willis blitzing more now that we have a supposedly more aggressive dc.

B/c we have six years of evidence that Lawson is not a play maker at the play making position in a 3-4 defense. You are also making a large assumption that other pass rushing OLB's can't be effective run stoppers like Lawson and that simply is not fact. It's already widely noted by both Baalke and Fangio that "covergae" of an OLB will no longer be a priority and that pass rush en route to stopping the run is. So that leaves, Lawson, a part time player (b/c he couldn't pass rush on critical downs, hence the low # of snaps) who's very good against the run AND will have a ripple effect on Aldon Smith. That said, if we retain him and he magically earns his stripes under Fangio and his "attacking style of defense" I would be MORE then happy to admit I was wrong. But after six years, Lawson is one guy who has clearly demonstrated his skill set and is what he is. Other players we can clearly say have ?-marks next to them b/c we have yet to see them used properly, used enough or utilized better under aproperly run 3-4. You guys are picturing Lawson under a Nolan/Manusky defensive scheme where he was a decent fit but this is a whole new defensive scheme and you need to view it as such. Players such as Willis, TKO, Smith, Brooks, LaBoy, Gibson, even Haralson to a degree (attacking), you can see their skill sets and how they would fit Fangio's defense...can you REALLY say Lawson will suddenly become a better play maker at the play making position? Six years people, six years under the same DC's, scheme and 10 players. There are other players on this team who I feel will not fit a Fangio defense so don't think this is a personal attack on Lawson. Even so, it most likely will be Lawson who chooses to leave anyhow in FA.

Use paragraphs, man!

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'd just start Aldon Smith and let him loose on the QB. Travis LaBoy and Parys could be our NRDE's. Really would love to Lawson, I think him and Smith would make a solid duo at OLB.

Agreed, that would be a solid combo. Lawson might not be a premier pass rusher, but he is a really good linebacker.

Disagree...with Lawson starting and his proven inability to pass rush, teams will easily be able to focus on blocking and effectively neutralizing Aldon Smith no matter where he lines up esp. as a rookie. Like teams game-planned last year to block out Willis, it works. That's not to say scheme can't effectively help one dominant pass rusher ala Clay Matthews but Green Bay also has very very good play from the other eleven guys. That is why we need TWO effective pass rushers on the outside on every single down which will effectively open up things on the inside for Willis/Spikes and even the two DE's (may be McDonald/Smith now) AND equally important, allow the secondary to play tighter, more physical and focus on play-making and creating TO's. We do NOT want to be the most vanilla 3-4 defense ever again, do we?

Why do you assume the defense will be vanilla? Regardless of pass rush, which Lawson is mediocre at, he is a very good run stopper and above average in coverage. You do not want only pass rushes or you will see your defense getting gashed by draws and screen passes. It takes well rounded players to make a good d, not just pass rushers. Hopefully we see Willis blitzing more now that we have a supposedly more aggressive dc.

B/c we have six years of evidence that Lawson is not a play maker at the play making position in a 3-4 defense. You are also making a large assumption that other pass rushing OLB's can't be effective run stoppers like Lawson and that simply is not fact. It's already widely noted by both Baalke and Fangio that "covergae" of an OLB will no longer be a priority and that pass rush en route to stopping the run is. So that leaves, Lawson, a part time player (b/c he couldn't pass rush on critical downs, hence the low # of snaps) who's very good against the run AND will have a ripple effect on Aldon Smith. That said, if we retain him and he magically earns his stripes under Fangio and his "attacking style of defense" I would be MORE then happy to admit I was wrong. But after six years, Lawson is one guy who has clearly demonstrated his skill set and is what he is. Other players we can clearly say have ?-marks next to them b/c we have yet to see them used properly, used enough or utilized better under aproperly run 3-4. You guys are picturing Lawson under a Nolan/Manusky defensive scheme where he was a decent fit but this is a whole new defensive scheme and you need to view it as such. Players such as Willis, TKO, Smith, Brooks, LaBoy, Gibson, even Haralson to a degree (attacking), you can see their skill sets and how they would fit Fangio's defense...can you REALLY say Lawson will suddenly become a better play maker at the play making position? Six years people, six years under the same DC's, scheme and 10 players. There are other players on this team who I feel will not fit a Fangio defense so don't think this is a personal attack on Lawson. Even so, it most likely will be Lawson who chooses to leave anyhow in FA.

Use paragraphs, man!


Come on! That was a short post for me...LOL
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by NCommand:


Come on! That was a short post for me...LOL

Hehe... yeah, I know. You're just usually better about that.

I didn't read, though. We already know each others opinion on the subject.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we let Lawson and Franklin go and end up terrible against the run and good against the pass?
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by NCommand:


Come on! That was a short post for me...LOL

Hehe... yeah, I know. You're just usually better about that.

I didn't read, though. We already know each others opinion on the subject.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we let Lawson and Franklin go and end up terrible against the run and good against the pass?

Good point...I'll be more cognizant of that going forward; would hate to detract would-be readers. Haha. No doubt...very much respect your opinion.

That is a very valid concern, no doubt! Our whole defense has been designed to stop the run by funneling everything through Willis, for the most part. Therefore, we've been killed in the passing game, bled to death slowly, given our offense fewer opprtunities, few TO's and even fewer "big play" and still lost in the end.

So? What the heck...now we have an aggressive style DC who will actually focus on game-planning, utilizing schemes, getting all four LBers in positions to make plays, who should be able to make in-game adjustments, and focus on dictating an offense as opposed to sitting back and watching everything happen in front of you. To me, this is what we've been asking for since day one and we actually have some nice players who fit this aggressive style of defense.

But to your point, there are things an aggressive (and effective) 3-4 can be susceptible too: counter runs or delayed hand offs, speedier RB's off tackle, a great pass catching TE, the middle of the field, over the top plays with speedier receivers, screens, etc.

In the end, it's about proper game-planning, utilizing your strengths and making in-game adjustments and of course, execution. Like you, I'm praying this new (for us) philosophy serves us very well no matter what happens to the individual players we covet!

[ Edited by NCommand on Jun 22, 2011 at 13:17:05 ]
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by NCommand:


Come on! That was a short post for me...LOL

Hehe... yeah, I know. You're just usually better about that.

I didn't read, though. We already know each others opinion on the subject.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we let Lawson and Franklin go and end up terrible against the run and good against the pass?

Good point...I'll be more cognizant of that going forward; would hate to detract would-be readers. Haha. No doubt...very much respect your opinion.

That is a very valid concern, no doubt! Our whole defense has been designed to stop the run by funneling everything through Willis, for the most part. Therefore, we've been killed in the passing game, bled to death slowly, given our offense fewer opprtunities, few TO's and even fewer "big play" and still lost in the end.

So? What the heck...now we have an aggressive style DC who will actually focus on game-planning, utilizing schemes, getting all four LBers in positions to make plays, who should be able to make in-game adjustments, and focus on dictating an offense as opposed to sitting back and watching everything happen in front of you. To me, this is what we've been asking for since day one and we actually have some nice players who fit this aggressive style of defense.

But to your point, there are things an aggressive (and effective) 3-4 can be susceptible too: counter runs or delayed hand offs, speedier RB's off tackle, a great pass catching TE, the middle of the field, over the top plays with speedier receivers, screens, etc.

In the end, it's about proper game-planning, utilizing your strengths and making in-game adjustments and of course, execution. Like you, I'm praying this new (for us) philosophy serves us very well no matter what happens to the individual players we covet!

Good post, as always!

All this speculation on our parts and it's looking like we might actually get a chance to see the defense in action, if all the reports are correct. I don't know if it will be exactly what Fangio wants, though... with the lost time, he might have to make some adjustments.

I still expect us to be more aggressive. Aldon Smith is the primary indication of that! Let's hope he's able to accomplish what none of our other linebackers have!

I personally think he transitions to OLB far faster than most journalists have been writing. I think he'll line up everywhere and Fangio will just cut him loose.
Call me crazy, but I feel like Aldon might end up being a DE like he was in college.
Originally posted by prime21:
Call me crazy, but I feel like Aldon might end up being a DE like he was in college.

I think he'll end up being a Justin Tuck type player, no specific position, but a pass rushing threat wherever he lines up.


...

Oh and UR CRZY!

[ Edited by NinerBuff on Jun 22, 2011 at 15:59:01 ]
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by NCommand:


Come on! That was a short post for me...LOL

Hehe... yeah, I know. You're just usually better about that.

I didn't read, though. We already know each others opinion on the subject.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we let Lawson and Franklin go and end up terrible against the run and good against the pass?

Good point...I'll be more cognizant of that going forward; would hate to detract would-be readers. Haha. No doubt...very much respect your opinion.

That is a very valid concern, no doubt! Our whole defense has been designed to stop the run by funneling everything through Willis, for the most part. Therefore, we've been killed in the passing game, bled to death slowly, given our offense fewer opprtunities, few TO's and even fewer "big play" and still lost in the end.

So? What the heck...now we have an aggressive style DC who will actually focus on game-planning, utilizing schemes, getting all four LBers in positions to make plays, who should be able to make in-game adjustments, and focus on dictating an offense as opposed to sitting back and watching everything happen in front of you. To me, this is what we've been asking for since day one and we actually have some nice players who fit this aggressive style of defense.

But to your point, there are things an aggressive (and effective) 3-4 can be susceptible too: counter runs or delayed hand offs, speedier RB's off tackle, a great pass catching TE, the middle of the field, over the top plays with speedier receivers, screens, etc.

In the end, it's about proper game-planning, utilizing your strengths and making in-game adjustments and of course, execution. Like you, I'm praying this new (for us) philosophy serves us very well no matter what happens to the individual players we covet!

Good post, as always!

All this speculation on our parts and it's looking like we might actually get a chance to see the defense in action, if all the reports are correct. I don't know if it will be exactly what Fangio wants, though... with the lost time, he might have to make some adjustments.

I still expect us to be more aggressive. Aldon Smith is the primary indication of that! Let's hope he's able to accomplish what none of our other linebackers have!

I personally think he transitions to OLB far faster than most journalists have been writing. I think he'll line up everywhere and Fangio will just cut him loose.

Cheers to ALL of your points!
Pretty standard plan
CBS Sports draft analyst Rob Rang has "real reservations" about No. 7 overall pick Aldon Smith's fit in the 49ers' defense.Rang liked the fact that the 49ers drafted a pass rusher, but much preferred Smith as a 4-3 defensive end as opposed to a 3-4 outside 'backer. "Quite frankly," writes Rang, "I see Smith growing out of the position and struggling to put up the numbers expected of a player taken so high." Rang believes that the 21-year-old Smith will only get bigger, which won't help his already suspect change-of-direction skills and balance as a pass rusher.


I think its a valid point. I`m not sure it`s accurate but it is valid.
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'd just start Aldon Smith and let him loose on the QB. Travis LaBoy and Parys could be our NRDE's. Really would love to Lawson, I think him and Smith would make a solid duo at OLB.

Agreed, that would be a solid combo. Lawson might not be a premier pass rusher, but he is a really good linebacker.

Disagree...with Lawson starting and his proven inability to pass rush, teams will easily be able to focus on blocking and effectively neutralizing Aldon Smith no matter where he lines up esp. as a rookie. Like teams game-planned last year to block out Willis, it works. That's not to say scheme can't effectively help one dominant pass rusher ala Clay Matthews but Green Bay also has very very good play from the other eleven guys. That is why we need TWO effective pass rushers on the outside on every single down which will effectively open up things on the inside for Willis/Spikes and even the two DE's (may be McDonald/Smith now) AND equally important, allow the secondary to play tighter, more physical and focus on play-making and creating TO's. We do NOT want to be the most vanilla 3-4 defense ever again, do we?

Why do you assume the defense will be vanilla? Regardless of pass rush, which Lawson is mediocre at, he is a very good run stopper and above average in coverage. You do not want only pass rushes or you will see your defense getting gashed by draws and screen passes. It takes well rounded players to make a good d, not just pass rushers. Hopefully we see Willis blitzing more now that we have a supposedly more aggressive dc.

The ENTIRE defense for the last 3 years has be killed by draws and screen passes.


Fixed.


BTW Parys was especially always a victim on screens, it was so frustrating, and BOWman last year would get destroyed on screens, and always take the wrong angle on the tackle.