What was a bigger problem last year?

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:


You can't really think like that though. It was a calculated risk. Every good OC is going to potentially get a coaching job. I'm quite surprised Turner got another shot to be honest with you. I don't really blame Nolan there...for the most part he hired good OC's.

I wasn't high on Rogers either...but I deff did NOT want Smith. I didn't like what I saw from him... I wanted the 9ers to trade down.

That is why teams that want a consistent offense need a HC who knows offense. The HC can then help with the continuity if the OC leaves. The system would stay the same and the players wouldn't be jerked around.

From McCarthy (who was WCO) to Turner (digit), Hostler (nothing), Martz (crazy system of his own), Raye (good in the 70s-80s), and then Johnson. Looking at these guys the problem is not their ability to run an offense, it is the total lack of similarity between their way of doing things. Like having Picasso start a painting, Miro in the middle and Dali finishing. Imagine what you would wind up with.

You didn't know Turner would get a HC job? There were posts on this site exclaiming the absurdity of his hiring for that very reason. I don't like him as a HC but that doesn't mean much, no owners have asked me. The only way he should have been hired is as an assistant or co-HC/OC with total control over the offense...and a three year commitment.

I was in favor of the trade down as well but no one wanted to do so. It was just the bad luck of the 9ers to have the number one in a year with no true top calibre players. They should have drafted a lineman...my idea of building from the ground up. In retrospect the two best players in that draft were Ware and Merriman at 11 & 12.

The Tom Moore's of this world aren't very common. The reality is if you want a quality coordinator you have to take the risk that he might get a head coaching gig.

I can't blame Nolan for hiring McCarthy and Norv Turner. Does anyone really think Alex would be better off if Jimmy Raye was his guy for 6 years? Because that's what you get when you tell 95% of coordinators that I don't want you seeking a promotion. Norv Turner was a 2 time failure as a head coach so yeah it was a surprise to see him get another gig.

In hindsight Aaron Rodgers should have been our pick. Come on now he is Super Bowl champion and a top 4 qb at the very worse. You take your chances that he could get past a shaky start. No guarantee that he pans out, might not be the qb that he is in GB, but that's a still a chance you have to take. Just because Alex got hurt in years 3 and 4 doesn't mean Rodgers would have. Why couldn't Rodgers succeed under Martz?

Turner interviewed for HC jobs before he accepted the OC position but my main argument is that the HC should be an offensive guy. There was a run on DCs a few years ago but it seems easier to keep continuity on the defensive side of the ball.

As far as it all being a crap shoot...of course it is! If the 9ers had drafted Rogers he might have been struck by lightning...or a meteor. I doubt, though, that he would have been successful with the revolving door OCs the 9ers have had.

Rogers' personality would have helped him though. Nolan would have had a cow when Rogers ignored the plays sent in and made his own decisions...good or bad. If he threw for a TD Nolan would have benched him for failing to follow orders.

Hey, he might have succeeded under Martz. So might Smith if he hadn't broken his shoulder. So many ifs in this world!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:


You can't really think like that though. It was a calculated risk. Every good OC is going to potentially get a coaching job. I'm quite surprised Turner got another shot to be honest with you. I don't really blame Nolan there...for the most part he hired good OC's.

I wasn't high on Rogers either...but I deff did NOT want Smith. I didn't like what I saw from him... I wanted the 9ers to trade down.

That is why teams that want a consistent offense need a HC who knows offense. The HC can then help with the continuity if the OC leaves. The system would stay the same and the players wouldn't be jerked around.

From McCarthy (who was WCO) to Turner (digit), Hostler (nothing), Martz (crazy system of his own), Raye (good in the 70s-80s), and then Johnson. Looking at these guys the problem is not their ability to run an offense, it is the total lack of similarity between their way of doing things. Like having Picasso start a painting, Miro in the middle and Dali finishing. Imagine what you would wind up with.

You didn't know Turner would get a HC job? There were posts on this site exclaiming the absurdity of his hiring for that very reason. I don't like him as a HC but that doesn't mean much, no owners have asked me. The only way he should have been hired is as an assistant or co-HC/OC with total control over the offense...and a three year commitment.

I was in favor of the trade down as well but no one wanted to do so. It was just the bad luck of the 9ers to have the number one in a year with no true top calibre players. They should have drafted a lineman...my idea of building from the ground up. In retrospect the two best players in that draft were Ware and Merriman at 11 & 12.

The Tom Moore's of this world aren't very common. The reality is if you want a quality coordinator you have to take the risk that he might get a head coaching gig.

I can't blame Nolan for hiring McCarthy and Norv Turner. Does anyone really think Alex would be better off if Jimmy Raye was his guy for 6 years? Because that's what you get when you tell 95% of coordinators that I don't want you seeking a promotion. Norv Turner was a 2 time failure as a head coach so yeah it was a surprise to see him get another gig.

In hindsight Aaron Rodgers should have been our pick. Come on now he is Super Bowl champion and a top 4 qb at the very worse. You take your chances that he could get past a shaky start. No guarantee that he pans out, might not be the qb that he is in GB, but that's a still a chance you have to take. Just because Alex got hurt in years 3 and 4 doesn't mean Rodgers would have. Why couldn't Rodgers succeed under Martz?

Turner interviewed for HC jobs before he accepted the OC position but my main argument is that the HC should be an offensive guy. There was a run on DCs a few years ago but it seems easier to keep continuity on the defensive side of the ball.

As far as it all being a crap shoot...of course it is! If the 9ers had drafted Rogers he might have been struck by lightning...or a meteor. I doubt, though, that he would have been successful with the revolving door OCs the 9ers have had.

Rogers' personality would have helped him though. Nolan would have had a cow when Rogers ignored the plays sent in and made his own decisions...good or bad. If he threw for a TD Nolan would have benched him for failing to follow orders.

Hey, he might have succeeded under Martz. So might Smith if he hadn't broken his shoulder. So many ifs in this world!

I think it depends on your city. If you're Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NY, or NE and you play half of your games in the cold you're going to want a strong defensive mind. With us we're much better suited for a west coast offensive minded guy. So I agree with you about that, but that's not the route we took and I don't think the McCarthy or the Turner hire was a mistake.

As far as Rodgers goes it's impossible to know for sure how the dominoes would have fell. Hell if he developed in year 3 Nolan and Hostler might still be around. Antonio Bryant could have lasted longer more than 1 season. If we won an extra game or 2 we might not have Patrick Willis or Vernon Davis. It's not something you can predict but still in hindsight that's the only pick you can make. You hit on a franchise qb and you practically guarantee yourself a playoff spot every year. Can't say that about any other position.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:


You can't really think like that though. It was a calculated risk. Every good OC is going to potentially get a coaching job. I'm quite surprised Turner got another shot to be honest with you. I don't really blame Nolan there...for the most part he hired good OC's.

I wasn't high on Rogers either...but I deff did NOT want Smith. I didn't like what I saw from him... I wanted the 9ers to trade down.

That is why teams that want a consistent offense need a HC who knows offense. The HC can then help with the continuity if the OC leaves. The system would stay the same and the players wouldn't be jerked around.

From McCarthy (who was WCO) to Turner (digit), Hostler (nothing), Martz (crazy system of his own), Raye (good in the 70s-80s), and then Johnson. Looking at these guys the problem is not their ability to run an offense, it is the total lack of similarity between their way of doing things. Like having Picasso start a painting, Miro in the middle and Dali finishing. Imagine what you would wind up with.

You didn't know Turner would get a HC job? There were posts on this site exclaiming the absurdity of his hiring for that very reason. I don't like him as a HC but that doesn't mean much, no owners have asked me. The only way he should have been hired is as an assistant or co-HC/OC with total control over the offense...and a three year commitment.

I was in favor of the trade down as well but no one wanted to do so. It was just the bad luck of the 9ers to have the number one in a year with no true top calibre players. They should have drafted a lineman...my idea of building from the ground up. In retrospect the two best players in that draft were Ware and Merriman at 11 & 12.

The Tom Moore's of this world aren't very common. The reality is if you want a quality coordinator you have to take the risk that he might get a head coaching gig.

I can't blame Nolan for hiring McCarthy and Norv Turner. Does anyone really think Alex would be better off if Jimmy Raye was his guy for 6 years? Because that's what you get when you tell 95% of coordinators that I don't want you seeking a promotion. Norv Turner was a 2 time failure as a head coach so yeah it was a surprise to see him get another gig.

In hindsight Aaron Rodgers should have been our pick. Come on now he is Super Bowl champion and a top 4 qb at the very worse. You take your chances that he could get past a shaky start. No guarantee that he pans out, might not be the qb that he is in GB, but that's a still a chance you have to take. Just because Alex got hurt in years 3 and 4 doesn't mean Rodgers would have. Why couldn't Rodgers succeed under Martz?

Turner interviewed for HC jobs before he accepted the OC position but my main argument is that the HC should be an offensive guy. There was a run on DCs a few years ago but it seems easier to keep continuity on the defensive side of the ball.

As far as it all being a crap shoot...of course it is! If the 9ers had drafted Rogers he might have been struck by lightning...or a meteor. I doubt, though, that he would have been successful with the revolving door OCs the 9ers have had.

Rogers' personality would have helped him though. Nolan would have had a cow when Rogers ignored the plays sent in and made his own decisions...good or bad. If he threw for a TD Nolan would have benched him for failing to follow orders.

Hey, he might have succeeded under Martz. So might Smith if he hadn't broken his shoulder. So many ifs in this world!

I think it depends on your city. If you're Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NY, or NE and you play half of your games in the cold you're going to want a strong defensive mind. With us we're much better suited for a west coast offensive minded guy. So I agree with you about that, but that's not the route we took and I don't think the McCarthy or the Turner hire was a mistake.

As far as Rodgers goes it's impossible to know for sure how the dominoes would have fell. Hell if he developed in year 3 Nolan and Hostler might still be around. Antonio Bryant could have lasted longer more than 1 season. If we won an extra game or 2 we might not have Patrick Willis or Vernon Davis. It's not something you can predict but still in hindsight that's the only pick you can make. You hit on a franchise qb and you practically guarantee yourself a playoff spot every year. Can't say that about any other position.

Yup
Or at least you are in the hunt. We couldn't even beat out Seattle for the NFC West. haha

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
coaching wasn't THAT bad.
We lost games by under 10 points against playoff teams.

Our oline was noobish.

i think that says a lot about our defense being really talented despite having idiots for coaches. with a good coach who didnt run it up the gut 99% of the time on 1st 2nd and 3rd downs we woulda won a lot more games than we did. singletary and his no name, no threat of taking his job staff can suck a fat one. Harbaugh is way better at game planning, getting his team prepped, scheming, probably equal in motivating his team, has a ton of creativity and surrounded himself with people that are highly regarded and have tons of experience. besides motivation factor harbaugh smokes sing in every way and that my friends is why we will succeed this year!!! PLAYOFFS!!!

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
coaching wasn't THAT bad.
We lost games by under 10 points against playoff teams.

Our oline was noobish.

i think that says a lot about our defense being really talented despite having idiots for coaches. with a good coach who didnt run it up the gut 99% of the time on 1st 2nd and 3rd downs we woulda won a lot more games than we did. singletary and his no name, no threat of taking his job staff can suck a fat one. Harbaugh is way better at game planning, getting his team prepped, scheming, probably equal in motivating his team, has a ton of creativity and surrounded himself with people that are highly regarded and have tons of experience. besides motivation factor harbaugh smokes sing in every way and that my friends is why we will succeed this year!!! PLAYOFFS!!!

this

if singeltary at least had an open mind and not run so often i think we wouldve made the playoffs last year

also it was pretty obvious last year we cam e in to the game with a plan A (which is why we did so good in beginnings of games but no plan B and plan C as we couldnt make in game adjustments due to lack of coaching smarts (which is why we sucked at the end)

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
coaching wasn't THAT bad.
We lost games by under 10 points against playoff teams.

Our oline was noobish.

i think that says a lot about our defense being really talented despite having idiots for coaches. with a good coach who didnt run it up the gut 99% of the time on 1st 2nd and 3rd downs we woulda won a lot more games than we did. singletary and his no name, no threat of taking his job staff can suck a fat one. Harbaugh is way better at game planning, getting his team prepped, scheming, probably equal in motivating his team, has a ton of creativity and surrounded himself with people that are highly regarded and have tons of experience. besides motivation factor harbaugh smokes sing in every way and that my friends is why we will succeed this year!!! PLAYOFFS!!!

this

if singeltary at least had an open mind and not run so often i think we wouldve made the playoffs last year

also it was pretty obvious last year we cam e in to the game with a plan A (which is why we did so good in beginnings of games but no plan B and plan C as we couldnt make in game adjustments due to lack of coaching smarts (which is why we sucked at the end)

The sad part (saddest) is that the team actually threw quite a bit, but they were throwing late when behind. If they had mixed in passes early and made the offense unpredictable it might have been a different year...but then, that wouldn't be Singletary's way of doing things.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:


I mean, I can understand if Alex had Raye his whole career....as Shurmur's better than him. But the guy had McCarthy, Martz and Turner in 3 of the first 4 years of his career. All 3 of SB rings. All 3 have worked with HOF QB's. Yet there are some in here that have the audacity to say that Alex did not benefit from an OC as good as Shurmur? Shurmur is average, luckily he had a pretty talented QB who can make all the throws. They depended on a lot of short passes. Something Alex STRUGGLES AT. Shurmur + Alex would have been a nightmare.

In addition, I've heard from apologists so many times that young QB's need offensive minded head coaches...that defensive minded head coaches are a recipe for disaster...yet all of a sudden the defensive minded HC who won 1 game the year before is HOF material.

It's so funny how subjective people are. I mean, obviously I'm not Alex's biggest supporter, but at least I state reasons why I don't like him as our QB and support my opinions with facts. I mean he was dealt a bad hand and was in a crappy situation. I'm not denying that. But just because he didn't get a fair shake, I must stick with him? The world...and LIFE does not work like that. The 9ers should not be a charity.

Had to laugh at this! You have responded to few arguments against your assertions but feel justified to criticize those who give you answers you don't like without addressing the comments. You lump all pro Smith arguements together so that you can use "silly" arguments to refute reasonable statements.

You feel justified to label coaches good, mediocre, or bad based on minimal information. Spagnola is mediocre at best because he had a bad first year. 'when I point out Walsh's first year as being almost equally as bad, you ignore that and restate your negative opinion.

I pointed out that the offense made progress in every single area...ignored. You just restate how average Shurmer is. Based on what? A year where the offense progressed in every facet. Do you know Shurmer personally that you are able to judge him so easily?

Lastly, the reason I have wanted an offensive minded HC is because you seldom have continuity on offense with a Defensive HC. Now Shurmer is gone and they were lucky enough to bring in McDaniels. Do you think McDaniels will be there long term? The Rams (and Bradford) may be in the same position as the 9ers with revolving door OCs. Not a good thing.

Like I said, there are a lot of parrallels between the 9ers and the Rams. Imagine if Nolan had a Bradford... Maybe you'd be speaking as glowingly of him as you do of Shurmur. Just a thought.

Perhaps. But Nolan made two mistakes from the start that really bothered me (although I'm not sure if he made the decisions on his own), hiring McCarthy as the OC knowing that he was likely to get a HC job soon, and then drafting Smith instead of Rogers. Rogers personality was more NFL ready. Nolan didn't like Rogers free spirit.

Then he compounded the first mistake by hiring Turner, another guy who was likely a HC within a year or two. Which is why I harp about having an offensive mind running the organization.

In fairness, Nolan was put in a very difficult situation upon his hiring. York sat on the fence and twiddled his thumbs for over a month before he finally committed to Nolan. In the meantime, all the best available position coaches had committed to other teams. As a result, Nolan had to go to the scrap heap for coaches that no one else wanted. Of course it did not help that the 49ers were so devoid of talent as to be called less than the first year Houston Texans. Hence, even the second season Nolan had almost no success in upgrading his staff.

In short, Nolan was limited both by his own vision and the limitations imposed on him by an owner with no feel for the pro game and how to run a franchise. So while that does not excuse the performance of the franchise, it explains in part why Nolan had no success here. Once a thing starts going badly, it is very hard to turn it around without major changes, and those changes, hopefully will happen with Harbaugh...finally.

Originally posted by dj43:

In fairness, Nolan was put in a very difficult situation upon his hiring. York sat on the fence and twiddled his thumbs for over a month before he finally committed to Nolan. In the meantime, all the best available position coaches had committed to other teams. As a result, Nolan had to go to the scrap heap for coaches that no one else wanted. Of course it did not help that the 49ers were so devoid of talent as to be called less than the first year Houston Texans. Hence, even the second season Nolan had almost no success in upgrading his staff.

In short, Nolan was limited both by his own vision and the limitations imposed on him by an owner with no feel for the pro game and how to run a franchise. So while that does not excuse the performance of the franchise, it explains in part why Nolan had no success here. Once a thing starts going badly, it is very hard to turn it around without major changes, and those changes, hopefully will happen with Harbaugh...finally.

Thanks for reminding me of the elder York's procrastination, totally forgotten! Nolan was a good organizer but was limited in experience as a head coach. If he had spent a year or two as a college coach he might have been more successful.

I had some hope for him though I prefer offensive minded HCs, but Singletary did none of the prerequisites to earn a HCing job.

The need for a head guy with football experience, either as a HC or higher, seemed to doom Nolan's chances. He may be back in the HCing ranks later in his carreer. I doubt Singletary will be able to keep his ego in check to work toward another HCing job. He sat down with Walsh for coffee and thought he understood offensive football.

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
coaching wasn't THAT bad.
We lost games by under 10 points against playoff teams.

Our oline was noobish.

i think that says a lot about our defense being really talented despite having idiots for coaches. with a good coach who didnt run it up the gut 99% of the time on 1st 2nd and 3rd downs we woulda won a lot more games than we did. singletary and his no name, no threat of taking his job staff can suck a fat one. Harbaugh is way better at game planning, getting his team prepped, scheming, probably equal in motivating his team, has a ton of creativity and surrounded himself with people that are highly regarded and have tons of experience. besides motivation factor harbaugh smokes sing in every way and that my friends is why we will succeed this year!!! PLAYOFFS!!!

this

if singeltary at least had an open mind and not run so often i think we wouldve made the playoffs last year

also it was pretty obvious last year we cam e in to the game with a plan A (which is why we did so good in beginnings of games but no plan B and plan C as we couldnt make in game adjustments due to lack of coaching smarts (which is why we sucked at the end)

Sing did not trust any of his QB's (Smith, Hill, Troy)....I see why he adopted the run first style. The problem was he didn't have the right guy (Raye) in place. We had some of the most basic, predictable packages.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:


I mean, I can understand if Alex had Raye his whole career....as Shurmur's better than him. But the guy had McCarthy, Martz and Turner in 3 of the first 4 years of his career. All 3 of SB rings. All 3 have worked with HOF QB's. Yet there are some in here that have the audacity to say that Alex did not benefit from an OC as good as Shurmur? Shurmur is average, luckily he had a pretty talented QB who can make all the throws. They depended on a lot of short passes. Something Alex STRUGGLES AT. Shurmur + Alex would have been a nightmare.

In addition, I've heard from apologists so many times that young QB's need offensive minded head coaches...that defensive minded head coaches are a recipe for disaster...yet all of a sudden the defensive minded HC who won 1 game the year before is HOF material.

It's so funny how subjective people are. I mean, obviously I'm not Alex's biggest supporter, but at least I state reasons why I don't like him as our QB and support my opinions with facts. I mean he was dealt a bad hand and was in a crappy situation. I'm not denying that. But just because he didn't get a fair shake, I must stick with him? The world...and LIFE does not work like that. The 9ers should not be a charity.

Had to laugh at this! You have responded to few arguments against your assertions but feel justified to criticize those who give you answers you don't like without addressing the comments. You lump all pro Smith arguements together so that you can use "silly" arguments to refute reasonable statements.

You feel justified to label coaches good, mediocre, or bad based on minimal information. Spagnola is mediocre at best because he had a bad first year. 'when I point out Walsh's first year as being almost equally as bad, you ignore that and restate your negative opinion.

I pointed out that the offense made progress in every single area...ignored. You just restate how average Shurmer is. Based on what? A year where the offense progressed in every facet. Do you know Shurmer personally that you are able to judge him so easily?

Lastly, the reason I have wanted an offensive minded HC is because you seldom have continuity on offense with a Defensive HC. Now Shurmer is gone and they were lucky enough to bring in McDaniels. Do you think McDaniels will be there long term? The Rams (and Bradford) may be in the same position as the 9ers with revolving door OCs. Not a good thing.

Like I said, there are a lot of parrallels between the 9ers and the Rams. Imagine if Nolan had a Bradford... Maybe you'd be speaking as glowingly of him as you do of Shurmur. Just a thought.

Perhaps. But Nolan made two mistakes from the start that really bothered me (although I'm not sure if he made the decisions on his own), hiring McCarthy as the OC knowing that he was likely to get a HC job soon, and then drafting Smith instead of Rogers. Rogers personality was more NFL ready. Nolan didn't like Rogers free spirit.

Then he compounded the first mistake by hiring Turner, another guy who was likely a HC within a year or two. Which is why I harp about having an offensive mind running the organization.

In fairness, Nolan was put in a very difficult situation upon his hiring. York sat on the fence and twiddled his thumbs for over a month before he finally committed to Nolan. In the meantime, all the best available position coaches had committed to other teams. As a result, Nolan had to go to the scrap heap for coaches that no one else wanted. Of course it did not help that the 49ers were so devoid of talent as to be called less than the first year Houston Texans. Hence, even the second season Nolan had almost no success in upgrading his staff.

In short, Nolan was limited both by his own vision and the limitations imposed on him by an owner with no feel for the pro game and how to run a franchise. So while that does not excuse the performance of the franchise, it explains in part why Nolan had no success here. Once a thing starts going badly, it is very hard to turn it around without major changes, and those changes, hopefully will happen with Harbaugh...finally.

I agree. I think if Nolan got another HC job, he'd be successful.

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:


I mean, I can understand if Alex had Raye his whole career....as Shurmur's better than him. But the guy had McCarthy, Martz and Turner in 3 of the first 4 years of his career. All 3 of SB rings. All 3 have worked with HOF QB's. Yet there are some in here that have the audacity to say that Alex did not benefit from an OC as good as Shurmur? Shurmur is average, luckily he had a pretty talented QB who can make all the throws. They depended on a lot of short passes. Something Alex STRUGGLES AT. Shurmur + Alex would have been a nightmare.

In addition, I've heard from apologists so many times that young QB's need offensive minded head coaches...that defensive minded head coaches are a recipe for disaster...yet all of a sudden the defensive minded HC who won 1 game the year before is HOF material.

It's so funny how subjective people are. I mean, obviously I'm not Alex's biggest supporter, but at least I state reasons why I don't like him as our QB and support my opinions with facts. I mean he was dealt a bad hand and was in a crappy situation. I'm not denying that. But just because he didn't get a fair shake, I must stick with him? The world...and LIFE does not work like that. The 9ers should not be a charity.

Had to laugh at this! You have responded to few arguments against your assertions but feel justified to criticize those who give you answers you don't like without addressing the comments. You lump all pro Smith arguements together so that you can use "silly" arguments to refute reasonable statements.

You feel justified to label coaches good, mediocre, or bad based on minimal information. Spagnola is mediocre at best because he had a bad first year. 'when I point out Walsh's first year as being almost equally as bad, you ignore that and restate your negative opinion.

I pointed out that the offense made progress in every single area...ignored. You just restate how average Shurmer is. Based on what? A year where the offense progressed in every facet. Do you know Shurmer personally that you are able to judge him so easily?

Lastly, the reason I have wanted an offensive minded HC is because you seldom have continuity on offense with a Defensive HC. Now Shurmer is gone and they were lucky enough to bring in McDaniels. Do you think McDaniels will be there long term? The Rams (and Bradford) may be in the same position as the 9ers with revolving door OCs. Not a good thing.

Like I said, there are a lot of parrallels between the 9ers and the Rams. Imagine if Nolan had a Bradford... Maybe you'd be speaking as glowingly of him as you do of Shurmur. Just a thought.

Perhaps. But Nolan made two mistakes from the start that really bothered me (although I'm not sure if he made the decisions on his own), hiring McCarthy as the OC knowing that he was likely to get a HC job soon, and then drafting Smith instead of Rogers. Rogers personality was more NFL ready. Nolan didn't like Rogers free spirit.

Then he compounded the first mistake by hiring Turner, another guy who was likely a HC within a year or two. Which is why I harp about having an offensive mind running the organization.

In fairness, Nolan was put in a very difficult situation upon his hiring. York sat on the fence and twiddled his thumbs for over a month before he finally committed to Nolan. In the meantime, all the best available position coaches had committed to other teams. As a result, Nolan had to go to the scrap heap for coaches that no one else wanted. Of course it did not help that the 49ers were so devoid of talent as to be called less than the first year Houston Texans. Hence, even the second season Nolan had almost no success in upgrading his staff.

In short, Nolan was limited both by his own vision and the limitations imposed on him by an owner with no feel for the pro game and how to run a franchise. So while that does not excuse the performance of the franchise, it explains in part why Nolan had no success here. Once a thing starts going badly, it is very hard to turn it around without major changes, and those changes, hopefully will happen with Harbaugh...finally.

I agree. I think if Nolan got another HC job, he'd be successful.

nolan was good

he knew his x's and 0's (to a point) problem is that the players didnt really respect him

its almost the exact same scenario as dallas and wade pjillips he knows his x's and 0's as well just no diciple and respect were commanded by both



as i have said many times take nolans smarts and sing discipline and motivational tecqniques we may have the best defensive minded HC in the nfl

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by Harbaugh52:

Originally posted by JayBee:
Are people really comparing a QB in his 1st season to a QB in his 6th season? Did I actually read that Danny Amendola is better than anyone on the 9ers roster? Did I read that Spagnola is one of the better HC's in the league and Shurmur is a top OC? Did I just hear that St. Louis had a good O-line? I'm getting a kick out of reading this garbage.

Uh..

Sagnola isnt a bad coach, Shurmur was a great OC last year, St. Louis does have a pretty good O-line.

Shurmur? Great OC?
Spagnola coached a team to a 1-15 record.
The O-line? The same O-line that was decimated by injuries?

It just goes to show you what a competent QB will do to a team. Makes the HC look good. Makes the OC look like a HOFer and the O-line look good. Makes a practice squad receiver all of a sudden a great player with phenomenal hands.

These guys have interesting careers. Shurmer didn't just help Bradford become a good QB, but every category of offense improved under Shurmer. That indicates coaching, not one great player showing his stuff. As for Spagnola, he is a D guy and has a track record of success as a DC. So, they had both areas covered by very competant people. Next season will be interesting as Bradford will have Josh McDaniels as OC. That should still be a good situation.

But I thought QB's required offensive minded head coaches to succeed? Bradford's situation mirrors Alex's situation so perfectly yet the 9ers OC's, HC's, players etc are all garbage and the Rams OC's, HC's, players, etc are top tier. It's just funny how some talk on both sides of their mouth.

We're not going to agree on this so no point discussing this further.

Shurmer is/was the yin to Spags yang. I'm not the poster who called the rest of the team garbage...as a matter of fact I don't recall any postive contributer to the discussions saying such a thing. The comparison parallels Smith's second year when Turner was the OC. If you recall, his rookie year Alex was in and out of the lineup to get him seasoning. Bradford was the annointed one and he started all 16 games. Smith had just turned 20 while Bradford was 23.

While you can say the circustances were similar, they were not the same and I disagree with your take. As to no point discussing this further...that's your option but I notice most people who say that keep posting and carrying on the debate. Look forward to your future posts.

Couple of points about the Rams coaching:

Spagnuolo tutored under Jim Johnson, a strong defensive coach who also understood the importance of having a solid offense as well. He inherited a Ram team that had become comfortable losing. He spent the entire season changing the chemistry of the team, bringing in rookies to replace vets who were just mailing it in every week.

He also brought Pat Shurmur as OC who had spent 10 years learning from Andy Reid. Shurmur had a number of suitors around the league but chose the Rams and Spagnuolo, in part because he was promised a free hand with the offense. Shurmur set about designing an offense that would work with existing Ram personnel. He had Bulger playing quite well compared to past years. Before he was injured, he had a QBR of 71. (Bradford was 76) His completion percentage was 57%. (Bradford was 60%) The offense with Bulger was decent, not great but much better than the year before. It was the defense that stunk but the 1-15 record gave them Sam Bradford.

The significant thing about the 2009 season was that despite the 1-15 record, pro observers widely noted the change in attitude on the team under Spagnuolo. They played hard but a lack of talent among the vets and a lot of rookies held them back. In 2010, the rookies had a year of experience and the entire team played much better. It wasn't just Bradford that made them a better team.

Some interesting stats comparing 2009 and 2010:
1st downs:
In 2009 the Rams gained 259 1st downs to opponents 333. This with a combination of Bulger and Kyle Boller.

In 2010, Rams gained 292 to opponents 304. The improvement was roughly equal on both sides of the ball.

Ave gain/play 2009 Rams 4.5, opponents 5.9.

In 2010, Rams 4.6, opponents 5.3. The big improvement here was NOT on offense but on defense. Bulger/Boller were only .1 yard/play better than the Bradford offense. The defense was where the big improvement came.

Total yards in 2009 Rams; 4470, opponents 5965
In 2010: Rams 4846, opponents 5388

Again, while the offense did improve under Bradford, gaining 376 more yards than 2009, it was the defense that made the greatest improvement giving up 577 FEWER yards than before the year before.

Turnovers were a BIG change where the Rams went from -13 to +5. Bulger/Boller had 12 between them while 3rd string injury replacement Keith Null had 9 by himself. Bradford had 15.

The point here is that while Bradford was clearly an improvement over the 2009 QB committee, there were substantial improvements in just about every other category as well. It wasn't like Sam turned a garbage team into a contender. Bradford got a lot of press but when we blow away the smoke, the defense was where the biggest improvement came about.

So take it for what one might. Bradford had a nice rookie year but when we look at the entire picture, the Ram defense behind Chris Long, James Hall and James Lauinaitis made more of an improvement than the offense behind Sam Bradford.

Thanks DJ, very interesting read!

+1

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JayBee:


I mean, I can understand if Alex had Raye his whole career....as Shurmur's better than him. But the guy had McCarthy, Martz and Turner in 3 of the first 4 years of his career. All 3 of SB rings. All 3 have worked with HOF QB's. Yet there are some in here that have the audacity to say that Alex did not benefit from an OC as good as Shurmur? Shurmur is average, luckily he had a pretty talented QB who can make all the throws. They depended on a lot of short passes. Something Alex STRUGGLES AT. Shurmur + Alex would have been a nightmare.

In addition, I've heard from apologists so many times that young QB's need offensive minded head coaches...that defensive minded head coaches are a recipe for disaster...yet all of a sudden the defensive minded HC who won 1 game the year before is HOF material.

It's so funny how subjective people are. I mean, obviously I'm not Alex's biggest supporter, but at least I state reasons why I don't like him as our QB and support my opinions with facts. I mean he was dealt a bad hand and was in a crappy situation. I'm not denying that. But just because he didn't get a fair shake, I must stick with him? The world...and LIFE does not work like that. The 9ers should not be a charity.

Had to laugh at this! You have responded to few arguments against your assertions but feel justified to criticize those who give you answers you don't like without addressing the comments. You lump all pro Smith arguements together so that you can use "silly" arguments to refute reasonable statements.

You feel justified to label coaches good, mediocre, or bad based on minimal information. Spagnola is mediocre at best because he had a bad first year. 'when I point out Walsh's first year as being almost equally as bad, you ignore that and restate your negative opinion.

I pointed out that the offense made progress in every single area...ignored. You just restate how average Shurmer is. Based on what? A year where the offense progressed in every facet. Do you know Shurmer personally that you are able to judge him so easily?

Lastly, the reason I have wanted an offensive minded HC is because you seldom have continuity on offense with a Defensive HC. Now Shurmer is gone and they were lucky enough to bring in McDaniels. Do you think McDaniels will be there long term? The Rams (and Bradford) may be in the same position as the 9ers with revolving door OCs. Not a good thing.

Like I said, there are a lot of parrallels between the 9ers and the Rams. Imagine if Nolan had a Bradford... Maybe you'd be speaking as glowingly of him as you do of Shurmur. Just a thought.

Perhaps. But Nolan made two mistakes from the start that really bothered me (although I'm not sure if he made the decisions on his own), hiring McCarthy as the OC knowing that he was likely to get a HC job soon, and then drafting Smith instead of Rogers. Rogers personality was more NFL ready. Nolan didn't like Rogers free spirit.

Then he compounded the first mistake by hiring Turner, another guy who was likely a HC within a year or two. Which is why I harp about having an offensive mind running the organization.

In fairness, Nolan was put in a very difficult situation upon his hiring. York sat on the fence and twiddled his thumbs for over a month before he finally committed to Nolan. In the meantime, all the best available position coaches had committed to other teams. As a result, Nolan had to go to the scrap heap for coaches that no one else wanted. Of course it did not help that the 49ers were so devoid of talent as to be called less than the first year Houston Texans. Hence, even the second season Nolan had almost no success in upgrading his staff.

In short, Nolan was limited both by his own vision and the limitations imposed on him by an owner with no feel for the pro game and how to run a franchise. So while that does not excuse the performance of the franchise, it explains in part why Nolan had no success here. Once a thing starts going badly, it is very hard to turn it around without major changes, and those changes, hopefully will happen with Harbaugh...finally.

I agree. I think if Nolan got another HC job, he'd be successful.

nolan was good

he knew his x's and 0's (to a point) problem is that the players didnt really respect him

its almost the exact same scenario as dallas and wade pjillips he knows his x's and 0's as well just no diciple and respect were commanded by both



as i have said many times take nolans smarts and sing discipline and motivational tecqniques we may have the best defensive minded HC in the nfl

Nolan's biggest individual problem was his "my way or the highway" approach. He was very good about the mechanics of defense but not very insightful. He did not seem to have the ability to adjust things during the game to counter what opponents threw at him. That lacking became apparent to the players and they lost confidence.

Singletary came along and held much the same dogmatic view of things. The result was what we have all suffered from the past 8 years.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
nolan was good

he knew his x's and 0's (to a point) problem is that the players didnt really respect him

its almost the exact same scenario as dallas and wade pjillips he knows his x's and 0's as well just no diciple and respect were commanded by both



as i have said many times take nolans smarts and sing discipline and motivational tecqniques we may have the best defensive minded HC in the nfl

Nolan's biggest individual problem was his "my way or the highway" approach. He was very good about the mechanics of defense but not very insightful. He did not seem to have the ability to adjust things during the game to counter what opponents threw at him. That lacking became apparent to the players and they lost confidence.

Singletary came along and held much the same dogmatic view of things. The result was what we have all suffered from the past 8 years.

I would like to add that Nolan also sorely lacked expertise on the offensive side of the ball. He didn't have a vision as to what he wanted on offense and all too often it seemed that he was just content with giving the keys to the offense to his coordinator.

Furthermore, his playcalling was questionable and not nearly as aggressive for my likes. I remember him forgoing several 4th down calls for the safer option.

-9fA

Coaching without a doubt. I have seen high school teams with better weekly game plans!!!!