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What do we do with lawson!

Keep em. Toss Haralson.
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by TDilvr:
Originally posted by Sinsation:
we keep him and cut haralson. that guy sucks.

I don't get why anybody would keep 98 over 99....

Cuz 98 is signed for cheap, and 99 wants a lot of money to come back. Thats why

The last I checked, "I" wasn't paying his salary. So considering the team is pretty comfortable salry-wise as it is, I would prefer the BETTER player...not the cheaper one.

Cheaper > Better = York logic.
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
We need a new cba in place. Then we could talk to lawson about a deal. If he's looking for 50 million let him walk. We should have giving JP his money, but lawson is different not really the passrusher we expected. I think if we land miller and resign lawson those 2 could run the arch well. Forcing the qb to step up into justin smith, and ray mcdonald. Ray should get the start over issac, who i believed is the most overrated niner!!!

We had all off-season to sign him...he held out...we didn't sign him to a LT contract. We had all season to sign him....management didn't even bother. In his contract year, he put up a whopping 2.5 sacks.

At the end of the day Balke is running the show and he knows THE #1 responsibility of the OLB in the 3-4 is to get to the QB and it's been well documented over 5 years, even in a contract year, he'll never be able to do that.

In a real 3-4, non-Manusky vanilla scheme, coverage is a moot point. He's excellent at setting the edge but certainly has lost a lot of speed laterally with the injury and all the bulk he's had to put on just to play in the NFL. Keep in mind too that most LB's ARE good are setting the edge. Even Brooks in limited snaps had more TFL's. I, too, have questioned his motivation and heart so you can pretty much bank on MANNY going to a 4-3 team this off-season.

We won't miss Manny at all once we employ a proper 3-4 with the right personnel to fit it. Many fans on this board have no idea what a real 3-4 defense is supposed to look like...so here's a hint...watch the Superbowl and try to picture Lawson and Haralson in that defense and you'll get a good laugh!

Well said NC.


Ncommand, I have read this forum for awhile and have come to the conclusion, that when it comes to defensive evaluation, you are the brightest poster here.

I agree with everything you have said about Lawson. Personally, I think he would be a near pro bowl level in a 4-3 tampa 2 scheme, but the 3-4 is the complete non-fit for his style of play, since he is easily walled off by blockers and overstrides too much as a rusher. The most IMPORTANT attribute in a 3-4 rusher is the ability to get to the quarterback and apply heat. Our previos two stooges, Manusky and Nolan, simply didn't understand this.

But I'd also point out that the person you just replied to, Susweel, is simply a 49er player hater who understands nothing about the game of football. So while it may seem like he is sucking up to you, he actually has no flinging idea what you are talking about and just goes with the flow to be negative. Just a warning to you.

Thanks for the props, Owens81Owns but re: Susweel, you will never see me say a negative thing about another poster here - after all, it's just an opinion (and even in this case, he actually agrees with us - LOL).

It's funny, when you look at just skill set, Manny couldn't be more backwards for a 3-4. I just don't understand the backwards logic of fans having seen what a piss poor pass rush does to a secondary (and all four LBers) for years and years now while watching the successful 3-4 defenses go to the Superbowl every year and justify their claims that Lawson is a good fit in a 3-4. He has ZERO closing speed even when his one pass-rushing move works (very rare). He's also become pretty darn slow over the years (e.g. screen passes), a result of putting on a lot of weight and perhaps, b/c of the injury and motivation? Ppl talk of him playing 1/2 speed and his best games came last year when he was being benched for Brooks. Some may feel he just wanted his big pay day and stay annonymous on an average defense where he could disappear for games at a time.

But I don't get the impression Balke (in particular) wants average play anymore and he made claims to wanting OLB's who can do their #1 responsibility and that is rushing the QB en route to stopping the run and occasionally, dropping back in coverage (although not very important). Why are fans ignoring this fact? Also remember most LBers ARE good against the run and sealing the edge...Brooks had more TFL's, Haralson isn't as bad as some say (though he was a college DE originally). Manny is easily replaceable esp. in this new 3-4.

And sacks aren't important? Really...out of all our TO's last year, how many were b/c of sacks/strips? When we did get a sack, was the offense able to then get a first down? To say sacks are not important while Pittsburgh is playing Green Bay in the Superbowl is just plain ignorance on every level. So, answer me this - when was the last time Manny got a sack and forced a fumble; how many times in his entire 5 year career? Now compare that to our backups in LaBoy and Brooks (their trade mark). But pressure is more important? Pressure should be coming on EVERY DOWN and sacks and big plays should be a RESULT of pressure! I will say this again, the best 3-4 defenses, the OLB's generate 1/2 of the teams overall sacks - the SAM and WILL are your PLAY-MAKERS! The best 3-4 defense hover around 60% and that is what every 3-4 team aspires too (except Manusky and his vanilla schemes); good luck in San Diego! You try that crap in SD with a #1 defense (who BTW: have revamped their entire front 7 in no time) and Manusky will be fired in no time - he is going to have to pull a Nolan and suddenly become ultra aggressive, no doubt (not exactly his M.O. is it?!).

Then we get into the scheme? You put a Manny Lawson on Green Bay or Pittsburgh, he would be benched like he was his rookie year in SF when he was playing the WILL and couldn't get to the QB. Ppl claim we haven't USED him properly in the pass rush? Are you kidding me...go to FootballOutsiders and review his whole career esp. in 2009 when we hired a pass rushing specialist coach, Manny was almost exclusively used to pass rush...but eventually, whether it was Nolan or Manusky, it was obvious, he just couldn't do it. Period. And now we are going to a Dom Capers defense and you want to retain Manny b/c suddenly THAT will make him a great pass rusher? Laughable! Face it ppl, Manny is a liability in the 3-4 and if you really like his skill-set, you'll wish him the best when HE chooses to go to a 4-3 defense, ala Julian Peterson.

When you have 3rd down pass rushers you are running a poor 3-4 scheme. When they produce more sacks and pressures then your starters, you are REALLY running a poor scheme and clearly don't have the proper starters for a real 3-4 defense. Like we know Manny isn't a good fit for a 3-4, we may actually find out that LaBoy & Brooks ARE a good fit as starters for a proper 3-4. We shall see...

And why throw in Haralson into the mix? He's already signed LT and he's going nowhere? And he has shown that when focusing on just pass rushing (e.g. the #1 responsibility of the WILL/SAM and really, all four LBers), he did very well coming in off the bench, oddly enough.

In the end, make no mistake about it, it will be MANNY who chooses to leave, just like with Alex. The difference is, so far, the team and even the new regime, have shown more interest in retaining Alex Smith than Manny Lawson and that should tell fans something. And it seems like the same supporters of Alex are supporters of Lawson. Hmmmm.

Ppl need to let go of the old Nolan/Manusky 3-4 hybrid vanilla defenses and the players who played in it. That is ancient history and the philosophical shift has already taken hold...it may take a few years to acquire all the right pieces but those pieces will be hand-picked to fit this new philsophy, a proven one at that (e.g. watch the Superbowl)!

[ Edited by NCommand on Feb 1, 2011 at 08:50:36 ]
Remember Julian Peterson who was great for us in the 4-3 and once Nolan came here and switched to a 3-4, Peterson was doing exactly what Manny was doing when rushing: stopping as soon as a Tackle shifted over. Then we began using Peterson as a deep FS at times and an everywhere but rusher guy. Nolan did this with Manny also at times.

Manny will be very good but not great similar to Peterson in a 4-3 OLB. Honestly, he may actually be a very solid DE for how strong he pushes a block and since he doesn't have move upon moves, he may be a better fit with a hand on the ground.
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
We need a new cba in place. Then we could talk to lawson about a deal. If he's looking for 50 million let him walk. We should have giving JP his money, but lawson is different not really the passrusher we expected. I think if we land miller and resign lawson those 2 could run the arch well. Forcing the qb to step up into justin smith, and ray mcdonald. Ray should get the start over issac, who i believed is the most overrated niner!!!

We had all off-season to sign him...he held out...we didn't sign him to a LT contract. We had all season to sign him....management didn't even bother. In his contract year, he put up a whopping 2.5 sacks.

At the end of the day Balke is running the show and he knows THE #1 responsibility of the OLB in the 3-4 is to get to the QB and it's been well documented over 5 years, even in a contract year, he'll never be able to do that.

In a real 3-4, non-Manusky vanilla scheme, coverage is a moot point. He's excellent at setting the edge but certainly has lost a lot of speed laterally with the injury and all the bulk he's had to put on just to play in the NFL. Keep in mind too that most LB's ARE good are setting the edge. Even Brooks in limited snaps had more TFL's. I, too, have questioned his motivation and heart so you can pretty much bank on MANNY going to a 4-3 team this off-season.

We won't miss Manny at all once we employ a proper 3-4 with the right personnel to fit it. Many fans on this board have no idea what a real 3-4 defense is supposed to look like...so here's a hint...watch the Superbowl and try to picture Lawson and Haralson in that defense and you'll get a good laugh!

Well said NC.


Ncommand, I have read this forum for awhile and have come to the conclusion, that when it comes to defensive evaluation, you are the brightest poster here.

I agree with everything you have said about Lawson. Personally, I think he would be a near pro bowl level in a 4-3 tampa 2 scheme, but the 3-4 is the complete non-fit for his style of play, since he is easily walled off by blockers and overstrides too much as a rusher. The most IMPORTANT attribute in a 3-4 rusher is the ability to get to the quarterback and apply heat. Our previos two stooges, Manusky and Nolan, simply didn't understand this.

But I'd also point out that the person you just replied to, Susweel, is simply a 49er player hater who understands nothing about the game of football. So while it may seem like he is sucking up to you, he actually has no flinging idea what you are talking about and just goes with the flow to be negative. Just a warning to you.



********** PBM ALERT *****************PBM ALERT **************
he may not be a great pass rusher but he does possess other talents. he can defend an elite TE very well, a rb out of the backfield. I think we should re-sign him.
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
We need a new cba in place. Then we could talk to lawson about a deal. If he's looking for 50 million let him walk. We should have giving JP his money, but lawson is different not really the passrusher we expected. I think if we land miller and resign lawson those 2 could run the arch well. Forcing the qb to step up into justin smith, and ray mcdonald. Ray should get the start over issac, who i believed is the most overrated niner!!!

We had all off-season to sign him...he held out...we didn't sign him to a LT contract. We had all season to sign him....management didn't even bother. In his contract year, he put up a whopping 2.5 sacks.

At the end of the day Balke is running the show and he knows THE #1 responsibility of the OLB in the 3-4 is to get to the QB and it's been well documented over 5 years, even in a contract year, he'll never be able to do that.

In a real 3-4, non-Manusky vanilla scheme, coverage is a moot point. He's excellent at setting the edge but certainly has lost a lot of speed laterally with the injury and all the bulk he's had to put on just to play in the NFL. Keep in mind too that most LB's ARE good are setting the edge. Even Brooks in limited snaps had more TFL's. I, too, have questioned his motivation and heart so you can pretty much bank on MANNY going to a 4-3 team this off-season.

We won't miss Manny at all once we employ a proper 3-4 with the right personnel to fit it. Many fans on this board have no idea what a real 3-4 defense is supposed to look like...so here's a hint...watch the Superbowl and try to picture Lawson and Haralson in that defense and you'll get a good laugh!

Well said NC.


Ncommand, I have read this forum for awhile and have come to the conclusion, that when it comes to defensive evaluation, you are the brightest poster here.

I agree with everything you have said about Lawson. Personally, I think he would be a near pro bowl level in a 4-3 tampa 2 scheme, but the 3-4 is the complete non-fit for his style of play, since he is easily walled off by blockers and overstrides too much as a rusher. The most IMPORTANT attribute in a 3-4 rusher is the ability to get to the quarterback and apply heat. Our previos two stooges, Manusky and Nolan, simply didn't understand this.

But I'd also point out that the person you just replied to, Susweel, is simply a 49er player hater who understands nothing about the game of football. So while it may seem like he is sucking up to you, he actually has no flinging idea what you are talking about and just goes with the flow to be negative. Just a warning to you.



********** PBM ALERT *****************PBM ALERT **************

Nope. Not McLovin, sorry.
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
We need a new cba in place. Then we could talk to lawson about a deal. If he's looking for 50 million let him walk. We should have giving JP his money, but lawson is different not really the passrusher we expected. I think if we land miller and resign lawson those 2 could run the arch well. Forcing the qb to step up into justin smith, and ray mcdonald. Ray should get the start over issac, who i believed is the most overrated niner!!!

We had all off-season to sign him...he held out...we didn't sign him to a LT contract. We had all season to sign him....management didn't even bother. In his contract year, he put up a whopping 2.5 sacks.

At the end of the day Balke is running the show and he knows THE #1 responsibility of the OLB in the 3-4 is to get to the QB and it's been well documented over 5 years, even in a contract year, he'll never be able to do that.

In a real 3-4, non-Manusky vanilla scheme, coverage is a moot point. He's excellent at setting the edge but certainly has lost a lot of speed laterally with the injury and all the bulk he's had to put on just to play in the NFL. Keep in mind too that most LB's ARE good are setting the edge. Even Brooks in limited snaps had more TFL's. I, too, have questioned his motivation and heart so you can pretty much bank on MANNY going to a 4-3 team this off-season.

We won't miss Manny at all once we employ a proper 3-4 with the right personnel to fit it. Many fans on this board have no idea what a real 3-4 defense is supposed to look like...so here's a hint...watch the Superbowl and try to picture Lawson and Haralson in that defense and you'll get a good laugh!

Well said NC.


Ncommand, I have read this forum for awhile and have come to the conclusion, that when it comes to defensive evaluation, you are the brightest poster here.

I agree with everything you have said about Lawson. Personally, I think he would be a near pro bowl level in a 4-3 tampa 2 scheme, but the 3-4 is the complete non-fit for his style of play, since he is easily walled off by blockers and overstrides too much as a rusher. The most IMPORTANT attribute in a 3-4 rusher is the ability to get to the quarterback and apply heat. Our previos two stooges, Manusky and Nolan, simply didn't understand this.

But I'd also point out that the person you just replied to, Susweel, is simply a 49er player hater who understands nothing about the game of football. So while it may seem like he is sucking up to you, he actually has no flinging idea what you are talking about and just goes with the flow to be negative. Just a warning to you.



********** PBM ALERT *****************PBM ALERT **************

Nope. Not McLovin, sorry.

  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,953
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
We need a new cba in place. Then we could talk to lawson about a deal. If he's looking for 50 million let him walk. We should have giving JP his money, but lawson is different not really the passrusher we expected. I think if we land miller and resign lawson those 2 could run the arch well. Forcing the qb to step up into justin smith, and ray mcdonald. Ray should get the start over issac, who i believed is the most overrated niner!!!

We had all off-season to sign him...he held out...we didn't sign him to a LT contract. We had all season to sign him....management didn't even bother. In his contract year, he put up a whopping 2.5 sacks.

At the end of the day Balke is running the show and he knows THE #1 responsibility of the OLB in the 3-4 is to get to the QB and it's been well documented over 5 years, even in a contract year, he'll never be able to do that.

In a real 3-4, non-Manusky vanilla scheme, coverage is a moot point. He's excellent at setting the edge but certainly has lost a lot of speed laterally with the injury and all the bulk he's had to put on just to play in the NFL. Keep in mind too that most LB's ARE good are setting the edge. Even Brooks in limited snaps had more TFL's. I, too, have questioned his motivation and heart so you can pretty much bank on MANNY going to a 4-3 team this off-season.

We won't miss Manny at all once we employ a proper 3-4 with the right personnel to fit it. Many fans on this board have no idea what a real 3-4 defense is supposed to look like...so here's a hint...watch the Superbowl and try to picture Lawson and Haralson in that defense and you'll get a good laugh!

Well said NC.


Ncommand, I have read this forum for awhile and have come to the conclusion, that when it comes to defensive evaluation, you are the brightest poster here.

I agree with everything you have said about Lawson. Personally, I think he would be a near pro bowl level in a 4-3 tampa 2 scheme, but the 3-4 is the complete non-fit for his style of play, since he is easily walled off by blockers and overstrides too much as a rusher. The most IMPORTANT attribute in a 3-4 rusher is the ability to get to the quarterback and apply heat. Our previos two stooges, Manusky and Nolan, simply didn't understand this.

But I'd also point out that the person you just replied to, Susweel, is simply a 49er player hater who understands nothing about the game of football. So while it may seem like he is sucking up to you, he actually has no flinging idea what you are talking about and just goes with the flow to be negative. Just a warning to you.



********** PBM ALERT *****************PBM ALERT **************

Nope. Not McLovin, sorry.

So you know McLovin is/was susweel ?

Either a PBM or you hide behind an alias....
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
We need a new cba in place. Then we could talk to lawson about a deal. If he's looking for 50 million let him walk. We should have giving JP his money, but lawson is different not really the passrusher we expected. I think if we land miller and resign lawson those 2 could run the arch well. Forcing the qb to step up into justin smith, and ray mcdonald. Ray should get the start over issac, who i believed is the most overrated niner!!!

We had all off-season to sign him...he held out...we didn't sign him to a LT contract. We had all season to sign him....management didn't even bother. In his contract year, he put up a whopping 2.5 sacks.

At the end of the day Balke is running the show and he knows THE #1 responsibility of the OLB in the 3-4 is to get to the QB and it's been well documented over 5 years, even in a contract year, he'll never be able to do that.

In a real 3-4, non-Manusky vanilla scheme, coverage is a moot point. He's excellent at setting the edge but certainly has lost a lot of speed laterally with the injury and all the bulk he's had to put on just to play in the NFL. Keep in mind too that most LB's ARE good are setting the edge. Even Brooks in limited snaps had more TFL's. I, too, have questioned his motivation and heart so you can pretty much bank on MANNY going to a 4-3 team this off-season.

We won't miss Manny at all once we employ a proper 3-4 with the right personnel to fit it. Many fans on this board have no idea what a real 3-4 defense is supposed to look like...so here's a hint...watch the Superbowl and try to picture Lawson and Haralson in that defense and you'll get a good laugh!

Well said NC.


Ncommand, I have read this forum for awhile and have come to the conclusion, that when it comes to defensive evaluation, you are the brightest poster here.

I agree with everything you have said about Lawson. Personally, I think he would be a near pro bowl level in a 4-3 tampa 2 scheme, but the 3-4 is the complete non-fit for his style of play, since he is easily walled off by blockers and overstrides too much as a rusher. The most IMPORTANT attribute in a 3-4 rusher is the ability to get to the quarterback and apply heat. Our previos two stooges, Manusky and Nolan, simply didn't understand this.

But I'd also point out that the person you just replied to, Susweel, is simply a 49er player hater who understands nothing about the game of football. So while it may seem like he is sucking up to you, he actually has no flinging idea what you are talking about and just goes with the flow to be negative. Just a warning to you.



********** PBM ALERT *****************PBM ALERT **************

Nope. Not McLovin, sorry.

So you know McLovin is/was susweel ?

Either a PBM or you hide behind an alias....

Yup something fishy about this one.

  • 9moon
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 514
i think we should let him walk.. use the money on extending ahmad brooks contract cause this is his last year..

if we want a pass rusher, we already have Brooks, he's a better and more of a natural rusher than Lawson..

Brooks would at least average 9 sacks a year if we allow him to play full time at the position.. in the meantime, allow Lawson to walk freely to either Carolina or San Diego..
Originally posted by Niners99:
I love how Lawson is considered a bust by most the fanbase, when they really have no idea what theyre talking about.

"Manny Lawson is overrated! he doesnt do anything, what a bust..." what? Lawson has been really good at rushing the passer when hes assigned to do so. hes actually been very solid. Haralson deserves alot more of the criticism, and even hes been better than he gets credit for. you have to look at the scheme, and how theyre being used. just because Lawson does put up DeMarcus Ware sack numbers doesnt make him a bad player.

i think most people are upset over him slacking on plays. he never puts in consistency. it's all on game tapes my friend. i wouldn't say he's a bust because he was a DE in college. maybe if we went to a 4-3 that would suit him best, but you can't say he doesn't take plays off hell GB game made me fkng puke.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by backontop:
it seems like everyone is confused on Lawson's strengths. He is not the guy that will get 10+ sacks a season. He is the guy that will get around 5 while creating some pressure, setting the edge and covering the TE. He is very valuable to this team and letting him go will be a huge mistake.
Right on the money.

As I said above, I look forward to seeing what he can do in Fangio's blitz packages where they shift and overload one side leaving the OLB free to rush against only the RB. Lawson's speed and quickness could be very good there. He just doesn't have the bulk to be a power rusher.

Fine. His strength is setting the edge, but I'm not willing to pay a "setting-the-edge-only-LB" top 5 LB money. That's crazy. People are under this impression that we can't possibly improve the one-dimensional talent on this team. I know everyone is accustomed to Scott McCloughan and his off-season choke sessions, but I really believe that's going to change. The 49ers need to constantly improve the talent they have at whatever position is there. I'm not satisfied with what we have and I'm only interested in improvement - like other great teams out there.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by backontop:
it seems like everyone is confused on Lawson's strengths. He is not the guy that will get 10+ sacks a season. He is the guy that will get around 5 while creating some pressure, setting the edge and covering the TE. He is very valuable to this team and letting him go will be a huge mistake.
Right on the money.

As I said above, I look forward to seeing what he can do in Fangio's blitz packages where they shift and overload one side leaving the OLB free to rush against only the RB. Lawson's speed and quickness could be very good there. He just doesn't have the bulk to be a power rusher.

Fine. His strength is setting the edge, but I'm not willing to pay a "setting-the-edge-only-LB" top 5 LB money. That's crazy. People are under this impression that we can't possibly improve the one-dimensional talent on this team. I know everyone is accustomed to Scott McCloughan and his off-season choke sessions, but I really believe that's going to change. The 49ers need to constantly improve the talent they have at whatever position is there. I'm not satisfied with what we have and I'm only interested in improvement - like other great teams out there.
Originally posted by WestCoast:
he may not be a great pass rusher but he does possess other talents. he can defend an elite TE very well, a rb out of the backfield. I think we should re-sign him.

Unfortunately for Lawson, those things he does well are not needed in a properly run 3-4. Covering TE's is what CB's and safeties do. Setting the edge is what every LB is supposed to do whether you start up at the LOS or not; you set the edge and turn the RB inside to your help. Simple. And even that said, Brooks in limited snaps has more TFL than him. How is that? And let's be real here...we've been destroyed by RB's and WR's on screens as well as speedy backs off tackle so it's not like we can't improve in this area. So again, it comes back to the scheme we are going to run and THE #1 thing we need to help our ENTIRE defense (esp. the secondary) are two OLB's who can provide constant pressure and produce sacks and big plays. That's their job and sadly, neither Lawson or Haralson can do it even after 5 years!