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Originally posted by pigskin:Originally posted by rk1642:
So you would have taken our roster of SD? Please, every GM in the NFL would have taken SD's players over ours no question about it.
I would take Rivers and the rest of the 49ers O over Smith and the rest of SD O.
Originally posted by rk1642:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by rk1642:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by Leathaface:Originally posted by niner4life21:
Why do people keep saying that Alex's 2006 season under Norv was a good one? I hear the same bulls**t: 'He was improving.'
Well no s**t. His rookie year, he had 1 TD and 11 INTs. It's not really that hard to improve off of a season like that.
I remember that Alex looked pretty damn good in 2006...only the first 2-3 games. I still remember those games when he would take shots down the field again and again to Antonio Bryant. Then, for some damn reason, he stopped doing that.
The 2006 year was not a good season. It was merely average. Maybe it was 'good' if you go by Alex's s**tty standards, but not in my book.
Finally someone who saw the same thing I did in 2006. Alex looked his best that season in the first quarter of that year...then he lost all confidence (Chicago, KC games) and was reeled in hugely by Norv Turner.
When 06 started, Alex was looking like a legit future NFL QB...he was stepping up in the pocket and throwing the ball down the field to Bryant and our other WRs. Once he lost confidence and we switched to a power running game (Gore's beast season) Smith never recovered.
All it takes is for someone to look at the stats on that year...he was HORRIBLE save the first quarter of that year. We were the best team in that division that year...we should have made the playoffs. But because we had ZERO passing game come midseason, we lost games we should have won (I also will never forget that loss @ STL when it was 4th and 1 cm and Nolan decided to kick the FG).
Anyway, I don't think Smith has been the same since then.
I was more than willing to give the guy a clean slate heading into this season...but the guy proved once again that he's not a consistently average NFL QB.
Shhhhh you have to quiet down that non-sense you speak. Remember, Alex had no talent around him and a sh**tty O-line even though 5 of 6 starters were actually very effective (Jonas Jennings when healthy and he was that year, Larry Allen had a solid year, Eric Heitmann, Justin Smiley-shouldn't have let him goand then our weak link in the passing game, Kwame Harris).
Then you have to remember, Anotnio Bryant is not a real threateven though he just came off a 1,000 yard season with the Browns and Trent Dilfer as his QB and them we let him go, he is out of football for a whole year and comes back and goes to to the Pro Bowl with the Bucs. Yeah, that guy has no talent
Then I'm sure it didn't help to have a 2,000 yards from scrimmage running back in your back fieldThere is no way that can make your job easier. Then you have an OC like Norv Turner to go along with all of that but you can't make any sense here, that will take away from all of the excuses that Alex is allowed
Yeah right, we were loaded with talent that year. I was really suprised that we didn't make a playoff run? We were able to draft Alex number 1 overall for a reason people - we were a s**t team back then and are just now coming out of that mess.
Just now coming out of that mess? We won more games in 06 then we did this year.
Care to elaborate on the sarcasm about our roster on Offense? Like I pointed out, the O-line was pretty good except for Kwame Harris, we had a Pro Bowl runningback that had 2,000 yards from scrimmage that season, we had Antonio Bryant who performed well on every team he played on when he WASN'T having off the field issues. Eric Johnson AND Vernon Davis was not a bad TE combo with Vernon being the 2nd TE option so although he wasn't nearly as good as he is now, that is a HELLUVA mismatch to have in a two TE set and we had Norv Turner who is very good at calling plays.
What we lacked on offense that year as we have for a while, was GOOD QB play. We had a weapon at RB, a weapon at WR and a weapon at TE. The team was not the best by any means but we should have finished 9-7 that season but that 2nd half of the season, Alex looked like sh*t to include the 2nd game vs the Rams which we lost by 3 and should have won and the 2nd game vs the Cardinals which I believe we should have won but we lost by 6.
Alex has had some rough times but he has also had some opportunities that could have changed the way people view him but AS USUAL, he always comes up short in big time situations. He has never been able to push his team over that hump when the expectations of a #1 overall QB are high....NEVER
Lot of sentences but you never answered my question did you. So you would have taken our O over the Chargers? If so, you'd be the only GM in the NFL who would have made that choice.
You try and compare Alex to Rivers and say they were both coached by Norv and look how much better Rivers progressed over Alex. Well thats fine but I'm saying its a little more complicated than that. Both qb's were at different developement points and both had a different set of players around them. Rivers had more time as a qb at the point were Norv stepped in over Alex. Rivers had a better cast of players surrounding him and that makes a difference.
I can easily say Rivers is the better qb but I don't get why you can't come to grips with the fact that Rivers was already a decent player when Norv got there and that he had the better supporting cast? SD has been a super bowl preseason favorite forever because of the fact that NFL people can see the talent they have. Maybe you have more insight than the talking heads on tv and the gm's around the NFL?
Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
and Macarthy. All 3 have had success after Alex. Yes Macarthy did have a depleted team to work with but he was still very knowledgeable, obviously since he went on to become a Head Coach and a successful one at that
Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
and Macarthy. All 3 have had success after Alex. Yes Macarthy did have a depleted team to work with but he was still very knowledgeable, obviously since he went on to become a Head Coach and a successful one at that
was a pretty good coach, he was just a HORRENDOUS play caller. He was the QB coach under Macarthy and Turner. Now he is the WR coach for Baltimore (very successful unit) so he wasn't a bad coach by any means, he just couldn't call plays to save his life.Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
and Macarthy. All 3 have had success after Alex. Yes Macarthy did have a depleted team to work with but he was still very knowledgeable, obviously since he went on to become a Head Coach and a successful one at that
Hell even Hostler
Mike Johnson was not a bad QB coach either. So Alex has actually been surrounded by some decent coaches, it just hasn't worked out the way we all would have liked.
Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
and Macarthy. All 3 have had success after Alex. Yes Macarthy did have a depleted team to work with but he was still very knowledgeable, obviously since he went on to become a Head Coach and a successful one at that
Macarthy ran a variation of the WCO, in which it takes at least 3-5 years to master. He was forced fed that offense in his initial year only for the coach to take off (like Turner) after. Rivers, on the other hand, actually played behind Brees for a few, learned the same offense installed by Turner (when he was the coordinator at SD) only to keep on running it when Turner took over.
So based on that, wouldn't Rivers actually have the upper hand?
Not really trying to argue here, just trying to point certain flaws in your argument that they both were "even keeled" as far as "know hows" at that particular point (2006).
- 98
Originally posted by thojess:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
and Macarthy. All 3 have had success after Alex. Yes Macarthy did have a depleted team to work with but he was still very knowledgeable, obviously since he went on to become a Head Coach and a successful one at that
Hell even Hostler
Mike Johnson was not a bad QB coach either. So Alex has actually been surrounded by some decent coaches, it just hasn't worked out the way we all would have liked.
So your giving Hostler credit because 3 pro-bowl calibar receivers were successful in Baltimore? Boldin, Houshyomama, and Mason? I could have coached that unit!
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Originally posted by excelsior:
During the last two years, I haven't been so concerned about QB coaching as I have about playcalling and scheme. Our scheme always seemed so simple and unimaginative. Our playcalling was always so predicatble - frequently the first two downs being runs up the middle with no gains, followed by 3rd and long - historically a low % passing scenario.
The Alex critics often say that the great QBs can make things happen when things break down. True to an extent. But Rodgers and Brady did not perform so well during their last playoff games this year. I can also recall Montana in '85, '86 and '87, three consecutive years in which Joe played horribly in those playoff games. Go look up the stats and you will see what I mean.
In each of these situations, the defenses were making things break down, and the performance of great QBs like them suffered dramatically. So I think the Alex critics have created this false reality in their mind. And they hold Alex to an unattainable standard.
Originally posted by thojess:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
and Macarthy. All 3 have had success after Alex. Yes Macarthy did have a depleted team to work with but he was still very knowledgeable, obviously since he went on to become a Head Coach and a successful one at that
Hell even Hostler
Mike Johnson was not a bad QB coach either. So Alex has actually been surrounded by some decent coaches, it just hasn't worked out the way we all would have liked.
So your giving Hostler credit because 3 pro-bowl calibar receivers were successful in Baltimore? Boldin, Houshyomama, and Mason? I could have coached that unit!
Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by excelsior:
During the last two years, I haven't been so concerned about QB coaching as I have about playcalling and scheme. Our scheme always seemed so simple and unimaginative. Our playcalling was always so predicatble - frequently the first two downs being runs up the middle with no gains, followed by 3rd and long - historically a low % passing scenario.
The Alex critics often say that the great QBs can make things happen when things break down. True to an extent. But Rodgers and Brady did not perform so well during their last playoff games this year. I can also recall Montana in '85, '86 and '87, three consecutive years in which Joe played horribly in those playoff games. Go look up the stats and you will see what I mean.
In each of these situations, the defenses were making things break down, and the performance of great QBs like them suffered dramatically. So I think the Alex critics have created this false reality in their mind. And they hold Alex to an unattainable standard.
I agree EX, but those QB's have also beat some good defensive schemes too. They have put their teams on their back and found ways to exploit some great defenses. Alex never has
Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:Originally posted by kidash:Originally posted by Sims84:
Alex hasn't been in the most ideal situation, no doubt about that and I have admitted that time and time again but to dismiss the fact that he HAS had enough talent around him and the coach and GM have BUILT the offense around Alex yet we still fail to do anything in meaningful games or against good teams is not ONLY on the coaches. At some point, a #1 overall pick who has been in the league for 6 damn years that has had a chance to learn AND/OR study (Martz since he was on IR but still went to meetings) with some top coaches should be able to put excuses aside and go out and perform more often than not and you know it
Just curious: Like who (minus Martz and Turner)?
- 98
and Macarthy. All 3 have had success after Alex. Yes Macarthy did have a depleted team to work with but he was still very knowledgeable, obviously since he went on to become a Head Coach and a successful one at that
Macarthy ran a variation of the WCO, in which it takes at least 3-5 years to master. He was forced fed that offense in his initial year only for the coach to take off (like Turner) after. Rivers, on the other hand, actually played behind Brees for a few, learned the same offense installed by Turner (when he was the coordinator at SD) only to keep on running it when Turner took over.
So based on that, wouldn't Rivers actually have the upper hand?
Not really trying to argue here, just trying to point certain flaws in your argument that they both were "even keeled" as far as "know hows" at that particular point (2006).
- 98
I never stated they were on even grounds, I just said Alex had talent on his team and could have easily did more with it. Of Rivers he had the upper hand and he took advantage of that opportunity. Alex didn't make the most of his because he showed he can be effective (early on in the season) and then slowly buy surely started regressing as the weeks went on (usually you get better as the weeks go on and you get more comfortable, Alex got worse).
So the only comparison between the two are the fact that they both were on the field for their 2nd season in the NFL (actually playing) under Norv Turner for the 1st time. Rivers looked good, Smith looked average.
