Official Alex Smith Thread

The numbers may say stay, but the EYES say go! He simply has no pocket presence or awareness. I have seen him get pressured, and scramble 20 yards for a big 1st down. Then the rest of the game he just stands there, flounders around a bit. It's like he suddenly forgets that he CAN run if needed!

Then there is the whole thing about him having to learn every facet of the offense before he can be good in it. His own college coach said that. I have been watching football for nearly 30 years, and I have NEVER heard of a QB with that issue before. Troy Smith was given a basic package after only being here a short while, and got us some wins. People talk about Nate Davis having a learning disability, or Vince Young being dumb...but it seems to me Alex is the one with the QB learning disability.

Originally posted by MarkD:
Yes the numbers are decent and he has a lot of potential but to answer your question. Why the fans say no. Alex Smith represents a period in the 49ers history of disfunctional coaching and ownership despite the facts of his avg numbers with the poor coaching and teams. The fans, 49er orginization and Smith need a fresh start at the end of the day for everyone to be satisfied.
If we where to draft Smith today I think he would be a great QB under Harbaugh and on this team, but there is to much poor history to take another shot. Fans will boo and Smith has had enough he is no longer a confident QB in San Fran and confidence is a main ingredient in a QB's success.

Great post! and good points

Don't get discouraged, NTeply49. Your anaysis is correct and your points are valid. We have a problem here with the many who refuse to let facts get in the way of their predetermined bias. Reality is what they want it to be, not what it is. You have stated fatcs, and they support the proposition that with just a better OC (MJ was still being hampered by Sing) Alex's results were observably better. Imagine what those results would be if he also had better protection and receivers that went after balls like Driver, Jennings and Collie.

His critics employ standard slogans and platitudes and repeat them over and over, without regard to their current accuracy.

As to the complainers about there being another Alex thread, they are free to not participate in it. Rather, they elect to waste our time with their crybaby griping.

In any event, Harbaugh and Baalke will make the decision, not us.

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
While Alex Smith has some ability, I have stated this before, so I will not list the Pros.
Alex Smith is obviously not perfect, we have all seen him play, I don't think anyone even his biggest fans can honestly say that in the fourth quarter of a close game you are supremely confident in alex's ability. Most of us either hold our breath or more cynically await his game losing mistake, weather it is his patented sack, fumble, his untimely interception, or of course his ever famous three and out check-down passing attack.

So let's just focus on what Alex does wrong and how it is not suitable to our situation.
Alex SMith does not do the following well enough:

Post Snap read of defense, he often seem confused.

Poor post snap reads cause him to hold the ball to long.

Slow release.

Poor/ineffective play action passing, and considering how often we ran WOW how you not sell that?

Aims the ball, does not "throw his receivers open"

Poor touch on short passes

Poor timing/touch on screen passes

Does not drop back from under center smoothly.

That is the short list, as I said Alex does a lot of things well, such as mid range passing, and shotgun passing, also his scrambling is under rated.

The cornerstone of the Bill Walsh Offense (WCO) is the timing of the "three step drop" This alone is enough to remove Alex from consideration.

The Three Step Drop, requires the QB and Wr's to have perfect timing. The QB must make and accurate pre and post snap read of the defense, while taking three steps back from under center (Alex's weakest ability) it is amazing how much happens in those three steps.

Breakdown of typical 3-step play

Step one check WR on quick slant he may need the ball NOW so plant and quickly release the ball, not he's covered.
Step two Post receiver might be coming open NOW, plant and release, no, he's covered, that means..
Plant on the third step, check the safety and and throw to a spot on the field for the deep receiver, no he is not covered, look to the fullback on a wheel route, throw a touch pass so he can catch the ball on the run.

Alex fails in that situation, because almost all the steps necessary to that 3-step drop play work against his strengths and towards his weakens.

Alex needs to play in a 5-7 step drop passing attack that utilizes the spread formation and shotgun passing. An offense that puts the ball deep and midrange more often than not, Alex would make a great QB in Oakland, in the 1970's, luckily for Alex, Al Davis still runs this offense!

My problem with Alex has been what I perceive as being slow to learn or possibly gain trust in a new offense. Sam Bradford, looked good this year, and he had to learn quickly, Matt Castle the same, and Sean "pie chucker" Hill has bounced around the league and had to learn multiple offenses quickly.

I don't think ALex has ever fully mastered any of the offenses he has been taught, he did come close to learning Jimmy Raye's High school play book, from 1975! The Bill Walsh system is to much to ask of him.

If Alex stays it is because Jim Harbaugh know WAAAY more about QB's than I do, but I truly feel if Alex winds up in the right offense, he will be a better than average pro, but not a superstar.

Valid points and I especially like how you used the term trust. We know he trusts V.D. and hes putting up Pro Bowl numbers. Morgan is putting up the best numbers in his career. Crabtree isnt putting up good number.... What do the first 2 have in common? They actually work at it and despite very little effort and work in the offseason Crabtree is still our best receiver.

Can we also agree its hard to trust guys that have let you down so much, even you Alex haters cant justify all the dropped passes and a couple of those were picks. Ginn dropped a couple could be touchdowns. In the last game alone on 2 deep balls Alex threw catchable passes to Morgan. One he slowed down on his last step, and the other he just dropped. I think Ginn had 2, and Crabtree had 2 including that one thrown over his head that was a little high so well say 5.

But how can you guys not be happy with a 90 QB rating over his last 8 games, every game after Raye left.

And about having Smith as our QB down a score with 2 mins I would be excited. I remember Thursday night against the Seahawks where he brought us back down 2 scores for the win and a few other times I cant think of off the top of my head. I feel the teams lack of success was more of a collective team effort than just Smiths fault.

I agree that he doesn't have the proper set of tools for the west coast offense, mostly he has failed to display a quick release and timing with his receivers. But you wont find a better option through free agency statistically, but the most important point I'm trying to make is that if Harbaugh NAMES HIM the starter, there will be a reason. It probably wont be a typical west coast offense were used to, but Harbaugh will create a game plan that plays to his strengths, he will get him mentally prepared by coaching him from the QBs perspective instead of the coaches, and I guarantee IF Harbaugh retains him he will be the best hes ever been and will be coached up on the fundamentals like footwork while adjusting his mechanics of throwing which will help his accuracy on all throws.

SO basically Alex will be alright as long as he never throws a bad pass on the first possession or while we are losing a game at home or else the boo hounds will be released is what I'm gathering from most peoples responses......

Originally posted by NTeply49:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html
Top Quarterbacks

Peyton Manning (IND) – The Colts have gone on the record insisting that Manning will be made the league’s highest paid player at the conclusion of this season. There’s no need to rush—the interest will be mutual.

Michael Vick (PHI) – How much do the Eagles like Kevin Kolb? Well, they liked him enough to trade Donovan McNabb to the Redskins, but I don’t think they’ll like him enough to let Michael Vick go. Vick still has debts to pay back from his previous trials and settlements, but that will be soon erased. Expect Michael to stay loyal to the only organization that gave him a second chance.

Brett Favre (MIN) – I’ve heard jokes every offseason for the last decade (or so it seems) that Favre will die on the football field before he hangs it up. Bruised and battered, his consecutive starts streak was put to an end and this offseason he’ll be teamless following a less than impressive campaign. Any takers? I doubt he’ll subject himself to the market this year, but come November next year, may he get the itch again?

Seneca Wallace (CLE) – Wallace has often been an underrated quarterback when he gets his opportunities. He maneuvers well in the pocket and can cause problems on the perimeter, but also manages offenses very well. Finding success in both Seattle and Cleveland, he appears to be the most proven back-up quarterback on the market. He may not drum up a lot of attention, but he’ll successfully execute orders when asked to enter the game.

Click Here!
Matt Hasselbeck (SEA) – It’s been four years since Matt Hasselbeck has been a statistically good quarterback when he posted a 91.4 QB Rating in 2007. However, there’s been a clear drop-off in the level of talent on the Seahawks roster since then as well. Hasselbeck may be the best back-up option on the free agent market on a team with talent, like Jon Kitna in Dallas. Though it’s not out of the realm of possibilities, I don’t expect Pete Carroll’s team to re-sign him, but instead go in a younger direction.

Matt Moore (CAR) – The collapse of the Panthers still remains an enigma to me. In the past, the team responded well to Matt Moore at quarterback. He fitted nice passes and protected the football, two things he absolutely didn’t do this year. To top it off, he suffered a torn labrum in his throwing shoulder in November, which won’t allow him to throw until March. He’s played the back-up role well in the past, so it seems that’s what he’s best suited to do.

Alex Smith (SF) – Many often wonder how Alex Smith would have panned out if he had a stable offensive coordinator for his entire career, but he’s been plagued by offensive changes like no other young quarterback. He’s looked okay in short bursts, but hasn’t been able to sustain success. His potential has been eaten and his interest around the league may be miniscule, but he has some talent where he could sit on the bench for a couple years and become a decent veteran back-up. His days in San Francisco, though, are surely numbered.

Matt Leinart (HOU) – Given the Cardinals’ quarterback woes, it sure seems like they made a mistake in cutting Matt Leinart before the regular season, especially given his 78.6 completion percentage this preseason. His biggest problem was his inability, or rather unwillingness to push the ball down the field, which ultimately caused Wisenhunt to pull the plug on Leinart. If he can find a quarterback coach that can get him over the hump, he may still have some value as a starting quarterback. He’s one of the wildcards in this free agent class.

Other Notable Free Agents:
Marc Bulger (BAL)
Todd Collins (CHI)
Caleb Hanie (CHI)
Brady Quinn (DEN)
Drew Stanton (DET)
Trent Edwards (JAC)
Luke McCown (JAC)
Brodie Croyle (KC)
Chad Pennington (MIA)
Tyler Thigpen (MIA)
Tarvaris Jackson (MIN)
Jim Sorgi (NYG)
Kellen Clemens (NYJ)
Kyle Boller (OAK)
Bruce Gradkowski (OAK)
Dennis Dixon (PIT)
Billy Volek (SD)
Troy Smith (SF)
Kerry Collins (TEN)
Rex Grossman (WAS)

I dont really see many players Id consider better than Smith on this list that are obtainable.....

I think Dennis Dixon might be a pretty interesting prospect for us. I didn't realize he was a free agent. Harbaugh surely knows something about him since he played in the PAC-10. Dixon performed pretty well in the Steeler's offense when Ben was out and he has very good mobility. I'm not sure how good his footwork is but he has a good arm and is mart guy.

Originally posted by excelsior:
Don't get discouraged, NTeply49. Your anaysis is correct and your points are valid. We have a problem here with the many who refuse to let facts get in the way of their predetermined bias. Reality is what they want it to be, not what it is. You have stated fatcs, and they support the proposition that with just a better OC (MJ was still being hampered by Sing) Alex's results were observably better. Imagine what those results would be if he also had better protection and receivers that went after balls like Driver, Jennings and Collie.

His critics employ standard slogans and platitudes and repeat them over and over, without regard to their current accuracy.

As to the complainers about there being another Alex thread, they are free to not participate in it. Rather, they elect to waste our time with their crybaby griping.

In any event, Harbaugh and Baalke will make the decision, not us.

Thank you too sir. Glad someone enjoyed it. At least I finally learned how to calculate QB ratings lol. I'm just glad I didn't get another warning and my number of posts reset. I should be around 800 after like 3 years of participating here.....

And for the dude that said I have selective stats, I included all passer stats unless you wants yards per attempt. In that case get your calculator out and get off your fat pessimistic ass and divide yards by attempts. thats yards/attempts lol

Thank you for your support

NTeply49 for president 2012

Originally posted by E-49er:

Originally posted by NTeply49:
http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html
Top Quarterbacks

Peyton Manning (IND) – The Colts have gone on the record insisting that Manning will be made the league’s highest paid player at the conclusion of this season. There’s no need to rush—the interest will be mutual.

Michael Vick (PHI) – How much do the Eagles like Kevin Kolb? Well, they liked him enough to trade Donovan McNabb to the Redskins, but I don’t think they’ll like him enough to let Michael Vick go. Vick still has debts to pay back from his previous trials and settlements, but that will be soon erased. Expect Michael to stay loyal to the only organization that gave him a second chance.

Brett Favre (MIN) – I’ve heard jokes every offseason for the last decade (or so it seems) that Favre will die on the football field before he hangs it up. Bruised and battered, his consecutive starts streak was put to an end and this offseason he’ll be teamless following a less than impressive campaign. Any takers? I doubt he’ll subject himself to the market this year, but come November next year, may he get the itch again?

Seneca Wallace (CLE) – Wallace has often been an underrated quarterback when he gets his opportunities. He maneuvers well in the pocket and can cause problems on the perimeter, but also manages offenses very well. Finding success in both Seattle and Cleveland, he appears to be the most proven back-up quarterback on the market. He may not drum up a lot of attention, but he’ll successfully execute orders when asked to enter the game.

Click Here!
Matt Hasselbeck (SEA) – It’s been four years since Matt Hasselbeck has been a statistically good quarterback when he posted a 91.4 QB Rating in 2007. However, there’s been a clear drop-off in the level of talent on the Seahawks roster since then as well. Hasselbeck may be the best back-up option on the free agent market on a team with talent, like Jon Kitna in Dallas. Though it’s not out of the realm of possibilities, I don’t expect Pete Carroll’s team to re-sign him, but instead go in a younger direction.

Matt Moore (CAR) – The collapse of the Panthers still remains an enigma to me. In the past, the team responded well to Matt Moore at quarterback. He fitted nice passes and protected the football, two things he absolutely didn’t do this year. To top it off, he suffered a torn labrum in his throwing shoulder in November, which won’t allow him to throw until March. He’s played the back-up role well in the past, so it seems that’s what he’s best suited to do.

Alex Smith (SF) – Many often wonder how Alex Smith would have panned out if he had a stable offensive coordinator for his entire career, but he’s been plagued by offensive changes like no other young quarterback. He’s looked okay in short bursts, but hasn’t been able to sustain success. His potential has been eaten and his interest around the league may be miniscule, but he has some talent where he could sit on the bench for a couple years and become a decent veteran back-up. His days in San Francisco, though, are surely numbered.

Matt Leinart (HOU) – Given the Cardinals’ quarterback woes, it sure seems like they made a mistake in cutting Matt Leinart before the regular season, especially given his 78.6 completion percentage this preseason. His biggest problem was his inability, or rather unwillingness to push the ball down the field, which ultimately caused Wisenhunt to pull the plug on Leinart. If he can find a quarterback coach that can get him over the hump, he may still have some value as a starting quarterback. He’s one of the wildcards in this free agent class.

Other Notable Free Agents:
Marc Bulger (BAL)
Todd Collins (CHI)
Caleb Hanie (CHI)
Brady Quinn (DEN)
Drew Stanton (DET)
Trent Edwards (JAC)
Luke McCown (JAC)
Brodie Croyle (KC)
Chad Pennington (MIA)
Tyler Thigpen (MIA)
Tarvaris Jackson (MIN)
Jim Sorgi (NYG)
Kellen Clemens (NYJ)
Kyle Boller (OAK)
Bruce Gradkowski (OAK)
Dennis Dixon (PIT)
Billy Volek (SD)
Troy Smith (SF)
Kerry Collins (TEN)
Rex Grossman (WAS)

I dont really see many players Id consider better than Smith on this list that are obtainable.....

I think Dennis Dixon might be a pretty interesting prospect for us. I didn't realize he was a free agent. Harbaugh surely knows something about him since he played in the PAC-10. Dixon performed pretty well in the Steeler's offense when Ben was out and he has very good mobility. I'm not sure how good his footwork is but he has a good arm and is mart guy.

His height concerns me if were going to be doing 3 step drops and small hands wont allow him to pull it down half way through his throwing motion in the event he sees a mistake and a defender jumping his route. Out of that list Gradowski is probably my favorite.

Damn, another Smith thread, lmao.

This is my take on the situation as a whole. WE have had horrible upper management and coaching since before Smith came. Actually ever since Mooch was fired and Eddie D was let go. So since then, the organization has been in disarray.

No more Nolan, No more Sing, got rid of Scotty, etc.

My thing was without pointing at just Alex, I want a HC that can put all of our players in the best position to be successful.

A HC that knows how to rotate the line if certain things arent working. That will pull the QB if they arent doing there job completely without worrying about the Qb putting up a fight to get back in. That can make a decision cuz he feels it's best and stick with that.

A HC that when he sees a WR run the wrong route, or give up on a play, or not jump, dive, and reach tremendously for a ball that may be thrown and is catchable he holds them accountable. that if a player gets a little nicked in preseason, (just like in a football movie, it's are you hurt or injured). If your injured u cant play, but if ur just hurt then ur ass is in the game still playing.

A HC that knows how to put the right defensive players in position. That knows that a glaring weakness of ours is the pass rush and deep coverage. that doesnt downplay and sugarcoat the real issues that we have on defense.

And ABove all, a HC that knows how to adjust in a game if the original gameplan aint working.

...........Wait for it....... So with all of this we have HARBAUGH....... And I say if Harbaugh wants Carr in and think he can improve his numbers, then we all should just shut the hell up, and support our HC.

And for those that say the oh this or that cuz we are fans, yes, as fans we will give our opinions till the day we die, as we should. However, we have a better HC in my opinion since Mooch. So lets give him our support and see what he wants to do.

Like he said, the past is the past, and that book is closed. He's moving on, from then to what we have now, so we need to let go of the past and live in the now. And if he brings players that he feels can help us win now, regardless of who it is, then im all for it.

All this talk about who should play QB next year and the hope JH can coach them up to a competent level overlooks the fact that if Harbaugh and his staff cannot turn the 49er receivers from a bunch of very undisciplined route runners who have never been competent at reading defenses and making the correct adjustments, it won't matter who the QB is, the offense will not get better.

Much of the discussion about the offense is centered only on the guy with the ball in his hands. It ignores or overlooks the fact that a WCO based on timing and precision DEMANDS receivers that are FAR MORE DISCIPLINED than anything ANY of them have shown in the past few years.

Lots of ppl are all about Vernon Davis because he has gone to a Pro Bowl. All that praise is nice but he gets those props on the basis on his blocking and the fact he only runs one route well and that is a seam route and that depends on avoiding a safety. Davis has shown NOTHING to indicate he will be an asset to WCO based on his lack of ability to read and adjust or to run the precise timing routes that are vital to WCO.

Same thing goes for Crabtree and Morgan. They too will have a long learning curve if the offense is to be effective.

Before anyone goes off on "you are just making excuses for Alex Smith," I suggest they do their homework on the play of the receivers. They suffered from poor position coaching and poor scheme just as much as Smith. The two are interactive. The QB can throw on timing if the receivers are were they are supposed to be at the time they are supposed to be there. Harbaugh will have to work from both ends of this deal at the same time. It won't matter much who is at QB unless the receivers learn how to play far better than they have the past two years.

...and then there is the question of the OL making the correct blocks to provide passing lanes on time...which they have NEVER DONE AT ANY TIME IN THE PAST TWO YEARS....

[ Edited by dj43 on Jan 28, 2011 at 09:35:09 ]

I'll trust Harbaugh on this one.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
1. Mike Johnson ain't here no more. That throws a lot of your Mike Johnson numbers out the windy.

2. The 49ers are 19-31 in games started by Alex. I'm not cherry picking any one period of his career. Just giving the full info. 19-31.

3. He is INJURY PRONE. Injured in '05, most all of '07, ALL of '08, some of '10. Cannot be relied upon to play all 16 as he has done that once in 6 years.

4. The main argument for Alex is he NEEDS OC CONTINUITY. Well, then why did he REGRESS his 2nd year with Raye? Also, if he needs this continuity, he WILL struggle in '11 to pick up the system. Your basically throwing away '11 so that Alex 'might' get it in '12 .

5. He's Captain Checkdown. He does not read defenses. He looks at one guy and if it's not there, he checks it down. This is why Gore is often our leading WR.
6. He's not a natural leader. Players responded a lot more to Troy than Alex. A lot of the locker room does not like Alex and does not play hard for him.

I would be able to handle #5 if he was above average in checkdown accuracy. He never really learned how to finess his checkdowns when needed and often times would throw to the back shoulder when down and distance required YAC to get a first down.

You know what that problem with so many fans these days is? Fantasy football has absolutely warped everyones minds and become the standard for judging a players ability. Any football fan who had the priveledge of watching manning, brady, rodgers, brees, etc. should CLEARLY be able to see that alex is overwhelmingly overmatched playing at this level (against solid competition atleast.) No excuses, the kid NEVER had what it takes to be a good pro.

[ Edited by DaveTheShocker on Jan 28, 2011 at 09:50:08 ]

Originally posted by CrunchE:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
1. Mike Johnson ain't here no more. That throws a lot of your Mike Johnson numbers out the windy.

2. The 49ers are 19-31 in games started by Alex. I'm not cherry picking any one period of his career. Just giving the full info. 19-31.

3. He is INJURY PRONE. Injured in '05, most all of '07, ALL of '08, some of '10. Cannot be relied upon to play all 16 as he has done that once in 6 years.

4. The main argument for Alex is he NEEDS OC CONTINUITY. Well, then why did he REGRESS his 2nd year with Raye? Also, if he needs this continuity, he WILL struggle in '11 to pick up the system. Your basically throwing away '11 so that Alex 'might' get it in '12 .

5. He's Captain Checkdown. He does not read defenses. He looks at one guy and if it's not there, he checks it down. This is why Gore is often our leading WR.
6. He's not a natural leader. Players responded a lot more to Troy than Alex. A lot of the locker room does not like Alex and does not play hard for him.

I would be able to handle #5 if he was above average in checkdown accuracy. He never really learned how to finess his checkdowns when needed and often times would throw to the back shoulder when down and distance required YAC to get a first down.

There is no doubt he needs to improve his accuracy but the issues noted here are closely linked to the receiver problems I noted in my post just prior to this.

Originally posted by CrunchE:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
1. Mike Johnson ain't here no more. That throws a lot of your Mike Johnson numbers out the windy.

2. The 49ers are 19-31 in games started by Alex. I'm not cherry picking any one period of his career. Just giving the full info. 19-31.

3. He is INJURY PRONE. Injured in '05, most all of '07, ALL of '08, some of '10. Cannot be relied upon to play all 16 as he has done that once in 6 years.

4. The main argument for Alex is he NEEDS OC CONTINUITY. Well, then why did he REGRESS his 2nd year with Raye? Also, if he needs this continuity, he WILL struggle in '11 to pick up the system. Your basically throwing away '11 so that Alex 'might' get it in '12 .

5. He's Captain Checkdown. He does not read defenses. He looks at one guy and if it's not there, he checks it down. This is why Gore is often our leading WR.
6. He's not a natural leader. Players responded a lot more to Troy than Alex. A lot of the locker room does not like Alex and does not play hard for him.

I would be able to handle #5 if he was above average in checkdown accuracy. He never really learned how to finess his checkdowns when needed and often times would throw to the back shoulder when down and distance required YAC to get a first down.

NOT hitting the receiver in stride is a key part in the vaunted "Three and Out Check down Attack Offense" (TOCAC) TOCAC was invented by Mike Singletary to optimize Alex Smiths talents!

Originally posted by CrunchE:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
1. Mike Johnson ain't here no more. That throws a lot of your Mike Johnson numbers out the windy.

2. The 49ers are 19-31 in games started by Alex. I'm not cherry picking any one period of his career. Just giving the full info. 19-31.

3. He is INJURY PRONE. Injured in '05, most all of '07, ALL of '08, some of '10. Cannot be relied upon to play all 16 as he has done that once in 6 years.

4. The main argument for Alex is he NEEDS OC CONTINUITY. Well, then why did he REGRESS his 2nd year with Raye? Also, if he needs this continuity, he WILL struggle in '11 to pick up the system. Your basically throwing away '11 so that Alex 'might' get it in '12 .

5. He's Captain Checkdown. He does not read defenses. He looks at one guy and if it's not there, he checks it down. This is why Gore is often our leading WR.
6. He's not a natural leader. Players responded a lot more to Troy than Alex. A lot of the locker room does not like Alex and does not play hard for him.

I would be able to handle #5 if he was above average in checkdown accuracy. He never really learned how to finess his checkdowns when needed and often times would throw to the back shoulder when down and distance required YAC to get a first down.

He has quite possibly the slowest release of all qbs under 30

[ Edited by DaveTheShocker on Jan 28, 2011 at 09:55:34 ]