What's the argument for going to the West Coast offense?

If everyone wants the WCO back, then why is Jed so adamantly against it?

Under Norv, the team looked like they had a clue. Since then A Smith has not progressed, the Oline has deteriorated, and the recieving core looks like they hadn't read the playbook.

I like the WCO, or any really thoughtful offense that creates problems for defenses. Any require a good mind at the helm, making play calls and adjustments. The pass to set up the run has proven to be most effective in the NFL, partly due to rules that limit the D to reacting rather than battling recievers.

A smart gifted QB is a must to reach a competitive level, most of the time. NE is an example of a team able to change RBs, WRs and still be effective thanks to Brady. P Manning has been less effective this year because of line breakdowns but they are still better than most teams. Superbowl QBs are a special group with few who were not exceptional (Hostetler, McMahon, Dilfer, Rypien and Johnson come to mind).

To run any good O the 9ers need a solid line, which may be a matter of time with the current group. They are young and may become dominant in a year or two. RG seems to be the biggest problem but Rachal is often very good--just needs to be consistent. Drafting a G in the mid rounds might be helpful, but changing to a better O is more important. It's amazing how good offenses can take our cast-offs and turn them into quality linemen...in their systems. If they pick up a lineman this offseason I would hope for a good veteran rather than a draft pick. Add age and seasoning, not potential.

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Jan 1, 2011 at 09:20:34 ]

Originally posted by boriken_9er:
Not that I am against but everybody is talking about going back to the WCO because that is what we used to do. This team has become a perennial loser because of poor management, poor coaching and lack of talent (at least at certain points), not because they stopped using the WCO.
Again, if it works fine, but I am looking for valid football reasons, after all if I am not mistaken Tampa Bay was the last team to win it all with the WCO back in 2002.

HOW ABOUT FIVE FREAKIN' TROPHIES AT 4949494949494949 CENTRAL?

THAT ENOUGH?

Originally posted by billbird2111:

Originally posted by boriken_9er:
Not that I am against but everybody is talking about going back to the WCO because that is what we used to do. This team has become a perennial loser because of poor management, poor coaching and lack of talent (at least at certain points), not because they stopped using the WCO.
Again, if it works fine, but I am looking for valid football reasons, after all if I am not mistaken Tampa Bay was the last team to win it all with the WCO back in 2002.

HOW ABOUT FIVE FREAKIN' TROPHIES AT 4949494949494949 CENTRAL?

THAT ENOUGH?

That argument worked great for the Steelers in the 80's. They just came off of four superbowls but refused to see that the Niners way was what worked. 70's Steelers fans were probably saying in the 80's what our fans are saying now. We are refusing to believe that the WCO is outdated and that there has been another shift in what works to win superbowls.

For whatever reason the 49ers have spent the last to ten years proving they didn't need Bill Walsh or his offense. Why, I have no idea but there seems to be a deep seeded jealousy of Bill Walsh in the 49er organization. This needs to change.

It's not like they've had success with out him. Sinlgetary was trying to emulate the 85 Bears, a running team with strong defense. He may have talked to Bill Walsh but he still tried his bears approach.

Go back to the Walsh days with the WCO, or at least a version of it.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by billbird2111:

Originally posted by boriken_9er:
Not that I am against but everybody is talking about going back to the WCO because that is what we used to do. This team has become a perennial loser because of poor management, poor coaching and lack of talent (at least at certain points), not because they stopped using the WCO.
Again, if it works fine, but I am looking for valid football reasons, after all if I am not mistaken Tampa Bay was the last team to win it all with the WCO back in 2002.

HOW ABOUT FIVE FREAKIN' TROPHIES AT 4949494949494949 CENTRAL?

THAT ENOUGH?

That argument worked great for the Steelers in the 80's. They just came off of four superbowls but refused to see that the Niners way was what worked. 70's Steelers fans were probably saying in the 80's what our fans are saying now. We are refusing to believe that the WCO is outdated and that there has been another shift in what works to win superbowls.

How can you say it is outdated when the league is still being dominated by teams that run a version of it?

Originally posted by boriken_9er:
Not that I am against but everybody is talking about going back to the WCO because that is what we used to do. This team has become a perennial loser because of poor management, poor coaching and lack of talent (at least at certain points), not because they stopped using the WCO.
Again, if it works fine, but I am looking for valid football reasons, after all if I am not mistaken Tampa Bay was the last team to win it all with the WCO back in 2002.

You mean the West Coast Offense or the Bill Walsh offense?

Even though people use those terms interchangeably ad nausem, they are not the same thing! Walsh even asked the media to stop calling the 49ers offense the WCO, because it wasn't. The WCO is the Coryell digit system (a version of which we already run).

Originally posted by pd24:

Originally posted by Joecool:
It's all about the play caller during the game and how he practices the players during the week.

It's not about the WCO anymore. Watch the 92 cowboys in the second half versus us, Aikman was spreading the ball all over the field and Norv had them looking more balanced than us.

Get the right HC and an OC who knows how to set up the defense, use each and every play with a purpose even if the play doesn't bet gains and make not only halftime adjustments but in drive adjustments along with creating a new play on the fly.

You get this type of OC and it won't matter what offense we run. I don't think what Steve Yug said solves anything Bill Walsh was not about tradition. He was about innovation and outthinking opponents. If he was about tradition, Montana Craig and Lott would have ended their careers here.

Norv uses alot of WCO in his own system.

Norv runs the Coryell offense so yes, technically he runs the WCO. Just not the Bill Walsh WCO you are implying.

Originally posted by 190836:
If everyone wants the WCO back, then why is Jed so adamantly against it?

When did he say ANYTHING about that?

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 190836:
If everyone wants the WCO back, then why is Jed so adamantly against it?

When did he say ANYTHING about that?

Good question because I was trying to recall the same thing.

Originally posted by Envy:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by billbird2111:

Originally posted by boriken_9er:
Not that I am against but everybody is talking about going back to the WCO because that is what we used to do. This team has become a perennial loser because of poor management, poor coaching and lack of talent (at least at certain points), not because they stopped using the WCO.
Again, if it works fine, but I am looking for valid football reasons, after all if I am not mistaken Tampa Bay was the last team to win it all with the WCO back in 2002.

HOW ABOUT FIVE FREAKIN' TROPHIES AT 4949494949494949 CENTRAL?

THAT ENOUGH?

That argument worked great for the Steelers in the 80's. They just came off of four superbowls but refused to see that the Niners way was what worked. 70's Steelers fans were probably saying in the 80's what our fans are saying now. We are refusing to believe that the WCO is outdated and that there has been another shift in what works to win superbowls.

How can you say it is outdated when the league is still being dominated by teams that run a version of it?

Teams that are winning SBs now are not really using it. It's all about the big game.

teams such as the giants, bears, redskins dominated in the 80s not using it but the team that won the most SB ran the WCO.

Teams that primarily use the WCO offense now are no different than the skins, giants, and bears of the 80s. Teams like NE, IND and KC are the innovators now and comparable to the Niners o the 80s.

Depending heavy on the WCO is not going to win SB. It's been 30 years: there's better things out there just waiting to get discovered now but we want to keep going backward.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:
It's all about the play caller during the game and how he practices the players during the week.

It's not about the WCO anymore. Watch the 92 cowboys in the second half versus us, Aikman was spreading the ball all over the field and Norv had them looking more balanced than us.

Get the right HC and an OC who knows how to set up the defense, use each and every play with a purpose even if the play doesn't bet gains and make not only halftime adjustments but in drive adjustments along with creating a new play on the fly.

You get this type of OC and it won't matter what offense we run. I don't think what Steve Yug said solves anything Bill Walsh was not about tradition. He was about innovation and outthinking opponents. If he was about tradition, Montana Craig and Lott would have ended their careers here.

Certainly, the better the coach the better the results, but the WCO is diverse enough to go any which way to take advantage of the player's skills and the defensive weaknesses. In my thinking, the WCO is not written in stone but is theory that includes inovation as part of the plan.

Edit--The WCO is about how to train/coach players to see the D and react to it. It goes way beyond drawing plays on the board.

Just about the entire league does this now.

Originally posted by pd24:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by pd24:

Originally posted by Joecool:
It's all about the play caller during the game and how he practices the players during the week.

It's not about the WCO anymore. Watch the 92 cowboys in the second half versus us, Aikman was spreading the ball all over the field and Norv had them looking more balanced than us.

Get the right HC and an OC who knows how to set up the defense, use each and every play with a purpose even if the play doesn't bet gains and make not only halftime adjustments but in drive adjustments along with creating a new play on the fly.

You get this type of OC and it won't matter what offense we run. I don't think what Steve Yug said solves anything Bill Walsh was not about tradition. He was about innovation and outthinking opponents. If he was about tradition, Montana Craig and Lott would have ended their careers here.

Norv uses alot of WCO in his own system.

like what?

Like alot of screen passes to his RB's, he did it more when he had LT, alot of stuff to the TE, slants to WR's. shots down field, but it has alot of WCO in it. Watch the Chargers O, the resemble the 90's niners more than the 90's cowboys.

We are forgetting that these exact same things were being said at the end of the Erickson reign. Guess what Nolan, yes Nolan, did? He brought in a WCO offense pedigree OC in McCarthy who's now regarded as one of the better coaches in the league because he's had success. What happened with the WCO then? Shouldn't that have solved all of our problems? Too bad Norv Turner, a NON WCO guy, came in and had this team perform better than McCarthy.

Point is: how Steve Young talks is no different than how Mike Singletary talks. There's a whole lot of generalities but no substance: "punch em in the mouth" as opposed to "tradition" or "we want to be able to run the ball when we want" as opposed to "WC this or WC that"

What offense we use does not matter. What OC we have does.

the west coast offense requires a QB with good accuracy and can deal with pressure while going through his progressions---these are things Alex Smith was not good at.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by pd24:

Originally posted by Joecool:
It's all about the play caller during the game and how he practices the players during the week.

It's not about the WCO anymore. Watch the 92 cowboys in the second half versus us, Aikman was spreading the ball all over the field and Norv had them looking more balanced than us.

Get the right HC and an OC who knows how to set up the defense, use each and every play with a purpose even if the play doesn't bet gains and make not only halftime adjustments but in drive adjustments along with creating a new play on the fly.

You get this type of OC and it won't matter what offense we run. I don't think what Steve Yug said solves anything Bill Walsh was not about tradition. He was about innovation and outthinking opponents. If he was about tradition, Montana Craig and Lott would have ended their careers here.

Norv uses alot of WCO in his own system.

Norv runs the Coryell offense so yes, technically he runs the WCO. Just not the Bill Walsh WCO you are implying.

Haha, it's the digit system, it's different. Why not just say that every single team in the league uses the WCO offense?

Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:

the west coast offense requires a QB with good accuracy and can deal with pressure while going through his progressions---these are things Alex Smith was not good at.

The team needs to bring in competitive QBs, whether A Smith is one or not. He has not proven himself but no one can say for sure if it's the WRs running bad routes, the line breaking down or all on Smith. Continuity has not been there so whoever comes in as GM better have a good plan. I like Smith's skills and do not believe he has had much of a chance but he should not be left unchallenged. If the 9ers can get a young QB who is better, great!

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Jan 2, 2011 at 10:41:48 ]

Originally posted by Envy:

Originally posted by kirkthejerk:
We're talking play terminology and the west coast system is a lot more difficult to learn, but the digit system that the 49ers have been using is easier to learn and is more adaptable (instead of alpha-dog-seadoo-blitzup-mochamocha, it's 5687-left-dragon-19) with the routes being numbered and easier for wr's to pickup and o-coordinators to adjust on the fly (although there are always so many 'option routes' built into every play). Our players know this language (there are adaptions for coordinators), but system changes are basically like learning a new language - "hey talk french at your job from now on".
This whole 'Bill Walsh old video-tape archives' thing is hogwash by the way, everybody has studies this stuff and it's evolved big time.
It is easy to incorporate west coast timing based plays into the digit system. Our players know the digit system.
It is also notable that every coordinator has an angle on their plays that the players must all learn to better understand their responsibilities.

I am sick of this 'west-cpast-offense' would make us unstoppable nonsense, we need a good coordinator like others have noted and we need rational fans too that stop chasing ghosts. "Well my high-school girlfriend let me get to third base on the second date so... " In the last ten years how many teams have won the Superbowl using the WCO? ONE

49ers - the most fickle and spoiled fans in the league -- too bad I like the team so much!

LET'S JUST GET THE BEST COACH AND COORDINATOR POSSIBLE, NO-MATTER WHAT SYSTEM THEY USE PERIOD

2 things.

The WCO is probably a lot more difficult to learn but that's the point and you have clearly missed it. The type of player that we had in the WCO previously was of a different caliber to our current type. Each player had a high football IQ and understood that its not about what is easy its about what works. Its about challenging players to think beyond their roles. You want the players to play easy systems then frankly I think you are asking them to do just enough to get by. I want them scratching their heads and studying the playbook. I want them watching WCO players to understand what is expected because only then will they know that its football........but on another level.

Of course anyone who believes that it will make us winners instantly has no idea. It takes time to implement and will cause us no end of hurt in the beginning. Yet WHAT HAVE WE DONE THAT WAS ANY BETTER? I'm not using capitals to shout I am making a point. We have done net fcuk all since some idiot felt we should turn our nose up to the past.

Why do I want the WCO? It is a system that works. It is a system that evolves. It is a system that we created. It wasn't broken so we didn't need to try and fix it. Yet in the prevailing years from our decision to turn our back on the WCO we have never clearly understood what we are. We run heavy....eh no we pass heavy....we are a shotgun team.....erm actually we are a power run side. Disgrace followed disgrace to a point that people laugh at us now as an offence.

There was a time that our football cast a shadow on this league. People get hard about hiring Patriots staff because of the coaching brilliance? I don't even think Bill would have had many of them on his staff. Bill understood that football games are won in the mind before even getting on a field. The scripted plays that is often heralded wasn't arrogance. It was a purpose built mechanism to test the strength of any defence. Once the weakness was found then the whole team knew what to do. How many of this current team have that sort of IQ?

But all of this is too logical to anyone who can see the problem with this team. So let me bring it back down to a sound byte.

We want the WCO because its our system. Its what Bill built, what George maintained and what Steve enforced. We want the WCO because it is ours. Go to Pittsburgh and ask them to play a prevent defence and see what reaction you get from them.

I'm not sure when it will happen but we will bring the WCO back and people will watch us with awe again.

Happy new year to you.

I understand your logic but I think that it's missing a couple fundamental pieces.

1. 49ers fans are fickle, and whoever the QB and o-coordinator are for the installation YEARS (they say it takes 3), I feel very sorry for. Two bad games and brainiacs are flying off their recliners talking about how Joe Montana and Steve Young never had 4 interception games. How Bill Walsh never scored less than 10 points in three games straight. It's ridiculous.

2. The WCO doesn't create smarter players or deeper understandings. Smart players create deeper understandings, offensive consistency and preparation create deeper understandings. Look at great offensive teams like the Saints, Colts, Patriots, etc. Smart QB's, smart players, with a couple speed guys on the field to really open things up.

3.The reason the 49ers are a different team every other week isn't because of the digit system, it's because of moronic defensive minded coaches without big-picture thinking. Mike Nolan and Mike Singletary have REALLY held our offense back, with help from QB injuries and consistency, poor talent on the O-line and at WR, etc. I really do truly believe that we have the guys right now though. Maybe another speed receiver.

4. It's sad because all that Alex Smith has ever done is fight through things, handle himself with class through tough situations, and be consistent. He is still developing and is ready to go, but he is almost certainly leaving now. He will do well for someone else and I hope that it will teach the fickle 49er fans to stop slinging mud and to get actual football educations to understand some of the s**tstorm that Alex has had to deal with in his last 6 years (the team was a void of talent and Alex was way too young and inexperienced for the first two, injured for the next TWO SEASONS, and Mike Singletary coached for the last two). It's a shame it's ending this way when a good offense and coach could really help him be special.