How will defenses gameplan against Troy Smith?

You cant stop Troy Smith, you can only hope to contain him.

Well, I'm going to leave this Superman thread now.

Cheers.

Start loading up to his right since he's so good rolling out to his right. Niners better have some counters ready for that.

Make him roll out to his left and make a play...at least break the tendency.

Troy Smith's big weakness: his height. He's just slightly taller than Gore. I noticed it at the beginning of the game...they were standing next to each other on the sideline.

That also explains his lack of completions in the middle of the field. The guy probably has trouble seeing over his linemen.

Ironically Alex is opposite...much taller and can make those middle throws easily. Conversely he struggles a bit more when he tries to attack the edges.

You can't stop troy smith you can only hope to contain him!

Originally posted by susweel:
You cant stop Troy Smith, you can only hope to contain him.

I heard that Troy's mom has a tattoo on her arm that says "Son"...

Quote:
3) Run Gore all day!!! Tampa isn't all that great against the run. In fact, they are near last.

Let's be real here. You know they're going to try that crap, Tampa will expect it, load up 8 guys in the box, and the Niners will still try to ram Gore through the brick wall.

At the end of the game it'll be 25 rushes for 50 yards for ol Frank.

Case in point: Rams are pretty mediocre against the run too.

Originally posted by kray28:

Quote:
3) Run Gore all day!!! Tampa isn't all that great against the run. In fact, they are near last.

Let's be real here. You know they're going to try that crap, Tampa will expect it, load up 8 guys in the box, and the Niners will still try to ram Gore through the brick wall.

At the end of the game it'll be 25 rushes for 50 yards for ol Frank.

Case in point: Rams are pretty mediocre against the run too.

Well, I wouldn't say mediocre, just not great. They are tied with New England and the Saints at #13, allowing 4.2 yards/att. Not great but in the upper half.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Do what the Eagles did last night to McNabb - bring pressure on the edge which force Smith to stay in the pocket instead of rolling out.

Also, bring a few Double A gap blitzes early in the game and then fake the blitz which opens the outside for the pass rush.

DL keep their hands up. Four passes batted down against the Rams shows Troy is vulnerable to that due to his being short. 49er OL has not shown the ability to cut DL to force them to keep their hands down. This is still a problem that will not get better until the OL play improves.

Had nothing to do late last night and ended up watching the game. I think Troy will struggle against the Bucs. If anyone has a big day, it will be Gore, Vernon, and Ginn.

He only completed 1 or 2 passes inside the numbers/hash marks. All other completions were passes near the side lines. The one he did throw in "the middle of the field" was on a sprint right shift in blocking and he threw it to the left to Crabtree on a 15 yard drag route. He did not throw ANYTHING short over the middle. I think his height plays a huge role here as he hasn't had enough experience to shift into passing lanes and then make the short pass ala Brees.

How does this correlate to him having a tough game against the Bucs? Well, since all of his throws were outside the hash marks, Tampa does play a lot of Tampa 2 which will make it difficult for him to get an open receiver on the sides. However, we have so much talent at the receiving/te/rb positions all around that we can strike any part of the field. The only problem will be if Troy can complete passes in the middle 0-12 yard range.

Yes, I'm a football geek so I thought of some things that we may do to help him out. 12 formation is a killer against cover 2 as it splits the Safeties as Favre did to us in the late 90's with Franks and Chamura.

1) 12 formation and see if they deviate from the cover two with help on Vernon over the top. This will free up Delanie for a lot of 5-7 yard option routes or it will free up the WR on Vernon's side. Alex was never able to take advantage of the single WR while his FS helped on Vernon.

2) 12 formation with Ginn out wide and send him deep with Vernon on the same side freezing the FS. The CB will stay shallow and Ginn can outrun the FS for the deep ball.

3) Run Gore all day!!! Tampa isn't all that great against the run. In fact, they are near last.

4) Rollouts. Since the CB has short outside responsibility, Tampa will not try to seal the edge as hard so we may have some good opportunities with PA rollouts.


Honestly, I think Alex may have more success against this type of defense as he loves the middle of the field. The Cover 2 is all about giving that.

Great analysis Joe. I saw the same thing and wondered why there were no in-routes or posts for huge completions. The only thing I saw that was even close to this was a comeback by Crabtree.

Isn't the Tampa 2 also susceptible to the QB option? What do you think?

Probably more-so to the draw as their MLB is responsible for a s**t load of field to cover. This is why Delanie or Vernon should be making that MLB's head spin. Our strengths on offense are the Tampa 2's biggest weakness which is 2 receiving TE's and power run-game between the tackles. If they want to commit a SS or WLB in coverage, then we run right behind off Tackle at the WLB covering or we throw over the top as their will be man coverage on a WR.

The bold and Troy being able to complete passes in the middle is my main concern. Other than that, our offense is built to beat a defense like this.

Now if they want to load the box with a single Safety deep: as Troy will have his WR's to use on the sides and he has displayed this as a strength.

It all depends on his ability to work the middle.

[ Edited by Joecool on Nov 16, 2010 at 11:17:57 ]

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Do what the Eagles did last night to McNabb - bring pressure on the edge which force Smith to stay in the pocket instead of rolling out.

Also, bring a few Double A gap blitzes early in the game and then fake the blitz which opens the outside for the pass rush.

DL keep their hands up. Four passes batted down against the Rams shows Troy is vulnerable to that due to his being short. 49er OL has not shown the ability to cut DL to force them to keep their hands down. This is still a problem that will not get better until the OL play improves.

Had nothing to do late last night and ended up watching the game. I think Troy will struggle against the Bucs. If anyone has a big day, it will be Gore, Vernon, and Ginn.

He only completed 1 or 2 passes inside the numbers/hash marks. All other completions were passes near the side lines. The one he did throw in "the middle of the field" was on a sprint right shift in blocking and he threw it to the left to Crabtree on a 15 yard drag route. He did not throw ANYTHING short over the middle. I think his height plays a huge role here as he hasn't had enough experience to shift into passing lanes and then make the short pass ala Brees.

How does this correlate to him having a tough game against the Bucs? Well, since all of his throws were outside the hash marks, Tampa does play a lot of Tampa 2 which will make it difficult for him to get an open receiver on the sides. However, we have so much talent at the receiving/te/rb positions all around that we can strike any part of the field. The only problem will be if Troy can complete passes in the middle 0-12 yard range.

Yes, I'm a football geek so I thought of some things that we may do to help him out. 12 formation is a killer against cover 2 as it splits the Safeties as Favre did to us in the late 90's with Franks and Chamura.

1) 12 formation and see if they deviate from the cover two with help on Vernon over the top. This will free up Delanie for a lot of 5-7 yard option routes or it will free up the WR on Vernon's side. Alex was never able to take advantage of the single WR while his FS helped on Vernon.

2) 12 formation with Ginn out wide and send him deep with Vernon on the same side freezing the FS. The CB will stay shallow and Ginn can outrun the FS for the deep ball.

3) Run Gore all day!!! Tampa isn't all that great against the run. In fact, they are near last.

4) Rollouts. Since the CB has short outside responsibility, Tampa will not try to seal the edge as hard so we may have some good opportunities with PA rollouts.


Honestly, I think Alex may have more success against this type of defense as he loves the middle of the field. The Cover 2 is all about giving that.

12 is a very good set against the T2 defense for the reasons you mentioned. Also, not very many teams have two TEs with the overall pass catching talent of Walker and Davis. Walker as the "read" guy is more effective than Vernon.

I would be surprised if Tampa allows Troy to roll out. That is the one thing they will have seen very well on film and will make sure the DEs pressure outside.

I would love to see Ginn's deep speed. Let's see if he can catch the ball.

Gore running a lot is not an issue. He will, although Tampa will try to take that away early.

Let's hope the coaches use the bold against Tampa. If they try to contain Troy, then Gore should have a s**t load of success running between the G/T as it will be easy for our Tackles to seal the DE's for a nice gap.

Troy still hasn't proven to be able to throw a completion in the middle -10 yards. That's worries me. But one thing is for sure, we can't say he's missed an open receiver.

9ers had a lot of success with the designed roll-out. 9ers know it, Bucs know it. If I am the Bucs....I am going to be thinking I need to worry about my awful run defense trying to keep Gore in check...I am going to worry about that first and foremost, then I am going to worry about letting Smith do his roll out thing.

It's pretty simple...if I am the Bucs I am not going to weaken my run defense in the middle to defend something else unless I absolutely must have to ...I am going to hold the middle at all costs....I am not going to let Gore gash me in the middle little by little, or let him tear off a big one. Then, if I can do that...I am going to have a shot at forcing the niner's into obvious passing situations. That's when I can send some heat straight up the field from the edges, and force Smith to get rid of the ball from inside the pocket, without much time for our receivers to get down the field.

If I am the niner's...I am going to work out of the two tight end one back set most of this game, and roll Smith out on early downs. I am going to try and force the Buc's to defend those edges more than they would like to (stretch the field horizontally)....and then I am going to try and hit them in the middle with shorter underneath stuff and runs....screens, draws etc. I am going to mix the s**t up, and stay the hell out of obvious passing situations as best I can.

What I saw last week...the niner's started stretching the field in two dimensions, horizontally and vertically. If I am the niner's, I am going to take that to th next step... use that to try and set up some short s**t right in the middle...some s**t whereby a designed 3 yard run or pass turns into a 8-10 yard average gain with the probability of tearing off a few big gains somewhere along the line. The Bucs aren't going to be able to defend the designed roll out that allows our receiver's time to get open down the filed without becoming vulnerable in the short middle, they are going to have to play a little deeper in the back end, and a little outward in the front end to defend it, If I am the niner's, I am going to try and create that dynamic to open the short middle and let my player's go make a play from there. IMHO.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Do what the Eagles did last night to McNabb - bring pressure on the edge which force Smith to stay in the pocket instead of rolling out.

Also, bring a few Double A gap blitzes early in the game and then fake the blitz which opens the outside for the pass rush.

DL keep their hands up. Four passes batted down against the Rams shows Troy is vulnerable to that due to his being short. 49er OL has not shown the ability to cut DL to force them to keep their hands down. This is still a problem that will not get better until the OL play improves.

Had nothing to do late last night and ended up watching the game. I think Troy will struggle against the Bucs. If anyone has a big day, it will be Gore, Vernon, and Ginn.

He only completed 1 or 2 passes inside the numbers/hash marks. All other completions were passes near the side lines. The one he did throw in "the middle of the field" was on a sprint right shift in blocking and he threw it to the left to Crabtree on a 15 yard drag route. He did not throw ANYTHING short over the middle. I think his height plays a huge role here as he hasn't had enough experience to shift into passing lanes and then make the short pass ala Brees.

How does this correlate to him having a tough game against the Bucs? Well, since all of his throws were outside the hash marks, Tampa does play a lot of Tampa 2 which will make it difficult for him to get an open receiver on the sides. However, we have so much talent at the receiving/te/rb positions all around that we can strike any part of the field. The only problem will be if Troy can complete passes in the middle 0-12 yard range.

Yes, I'm a football geek so I thought of some things that we may do to help him out. 12 formation is a killer against cover 2 as it splits the Safeties as Favre did to us in the late 90's with Franks and Chamura.

1) 12 formation and see if they deviate from the cover two with help on Vernon over the top. This will free up Delanie for a lot of 5-7 yard option routes or it will free up the WR on Vernon's side. Alex was never able to take advantage of the single WR while his FS helped on Vernon.

2) 12 formation with Ginn out wide and send him deep with Vernon on the same side freezing the FS. The CB will stay shallow and Ginn can outrun the FS for the deep ball.

3) Run Gore all day!!! Tampa isn't all that great against the run. In fact, they are near last.

4) Rollouts. Since the CB has short outside responsibility, Tampa will not try to seal the edge as hard so we may have some good opportunities with PA rollouts.


Honestly, I think Alex may have more success against this type of defense as he loves the middle of the field. The Cover 2 is all about giving that.

Great analysis Joe. I saw the same thing and wondered why there were no in-routes or posts for huge completions. The only thing I saw that was even close to this was a comeback by Crabtree.

Isn't the Tampa 2 also susceptible to the QB option? What do you think?

The called back TD to VD was over the middle which demonstrates that Troy has the ability to make plays over the entire field (Alex simply could not). His liability of being short would seem to make the most difference on slants which is what the cover-2 was designed to mitigate. I think that the 49ers strengths of running and creative use of TEs fair very well against the cover-2 and the Blacksmith's playmaking ability provides another asset that really can not be coached against.

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Do what the Eagles did last night to McNabb - bring pressure on the edge which force Smith to stay in the pocket instead of rolling out.

Also, bring a few Double A gap blitzes early in the game and then fake the blitz which opens the outside for the pass rush.

DL keep their hands up. Four passes batted down against the Rams shows Troy is vulnerable to that due to his being short. 49er OL has not shown the ability to cut DL to force them to keep their hands down. This is still a problem that will not get better until the OL play improves.

Had nothing to do late last night and ended up watching the game. I think Troy will struggle against the Bucs. If anyone has a big day, it will be Gore, Vernon, and Ginn.

He only completed 1 or 2 passes inside the numbers/hash marks. All other completions were passes near the side lines. The one he did throw in "the middle of the field" was on a sprint right shift in blocking and he threw it to the left to Crabtree on a 15 yard drag route. He did not throw ANYTHING short over the middle. I think his height plays a huge role here as he hasn't had enough experience to shift into passing lanes and then make the short pass ala Brees.

How does this correlate to him having a tough game against the Bucs? Well, since all of his throws were outside the hash marks, Tampa does play a lot of Tampa 2 which will make it difficult for him to get an open receiver on the sides. However, we have so much talent at the receiving/te/rb positions all around that we can strike any part of the field. The only problem will be if Troy can complete passes in the middle 0-12 yard range.

Yes, I'm a football geek so I thought of some things that we may do to help him out. 12 formation is a killer against cover 2 as it splits the Safeties as Favre did to us in the late 90's with Franks and Chamura.

1) 12 formation and see if they deviate from the cover two with help on Vernon over the top. This will free up Delanie for a lot of 5-7 yard option routes or it will free up the WR on Vernon's side. Alex was never able to take advantage of the single WR while his FS helped on Vernon.

2) 12 formation with Ginn out wide and send him deep with Vernon on the same side freezing the FS. The CB will stay shallow and Ginn can outrun the FS for the deep ball.

3) Run Gore all day!!! Tampa isn't all that great against the run. In fact, they are near last.

4) Rollouts. Since the CB has short outside responsibility, Tampa will not try to seal the edge as hard so we may have some good opportunities with PA rollouts.


Honestly, I think Alex may have more success against this type of defense as he loves the middle of the field. The Cover 2 is all about giving that.

12 is a very good set against the T2 defense for the reasons you mentioned. Also, not very many teams have two TEs with the overall pass catching talent of Walker and Davis. Walker as the "read" guy is more effective than Vernon.

I would be surprised if Tampa allows Troy to roll out. That is the one thing they will have seen very well on film and will make sure the DEs pressure outside.

I would love to see Ginn's deep speed. Let's see if he can catch the ball.

Gore running a lot is not an issue. He will, although Tampa will try to take that away early.

Let's hope the coaches use the bold against Tampa. If they try to contain Troy, then Gore should have a s**t load of success running between the G/T as it will be easy for our Tackles to seal the DE's for a nice gap.

Troy still hasn't proven to be able to throw a completion in the middle -10 yards. That's worries me. But one thing is for sure, we can't say he's missed an open receiver.

9ers had a lot of success with the designed roll-out. 9ers know it, Bucs know it. If I am the Bucs....I am going to be thinking I need to worry about my awful run defense trying to keep Gore in check...I am going to worry about that first and foremost, then I am going to worry about letting Smith do his roll out thing.

It's pretty simple...if I am the Bucs I am not going to weaken my run defense in the middle to defend something else unless I absolutely must have to ...I am going to hold the middle at all costs....I am not going to let Gore gash me in the middle little by little, or let him tear off a big one. Then, if I can do that...I am going to have a shot at forcing the niner's into obvious passing situations. That's when I can send some heat straight up the field from the edges, and force Smith to get rid of the ball from inside the pocket, without much time for our receivers to get down the field.

If I am the niner's...I am going to work out of the two tight end one back set most of this game, and roll Smith out on early downs. I am going to try and force the Buc's to defend those edges more than they would like to (stretch the field horizontally)....and then I am going to try and hit them in the middle with shorter underneath stuff and runs....screens, draws etc. I am going to mix the s**t up, and stay the hell out of obvious passing situations as best I can.

What I saw last week...the niner's started stretching the field in two dimensions, horizontally and vertically. If I am the niner's, I am going to take that to th next step... use that to try and set up some short s**t right in the middle...some s**t whereby a designed 3 yard run or pass turns into a 8-10 yard average gain with the probability of tearing off a few big gains somewhere along the line. The Bucs aren't going to be able to defend the designed roll out that allows our receiver's time to get open down the filed without becoming vulnerable in the short middle, they are going to have to play a little deeper in the back end, and a little outward in the front end to defend it, If I am the niner's, I am going to try and create that dynamic to open the short middle and let my player's go make a play from there. IMHO.

If they send guys from the edges on obvious passing downs, then we will light them up from 12 formation and hot read passes to our TE's for easy 8 to 9 yard gains. I'm assuming obvious passing downs would be 3rd and 7 or so.

I just don't think you can blitz a two tight end team consistently from the edge unless you bring the 8th man to blitz. If you bring an OLB, then the MLB will be forced to shift and you take your other TE and seam him right through the spot the MLB vacated.

Also, if we do rollout, the CB in the tampa 2 is up which means the MLB has a lot of coverage responsibility. I can easily see a rollout throw back to the backside TE coming across.

Damn!! I just hope our coaches don't try run-run-rollout to predictability.

Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

We haven't even tapped into our full potential. we need to get Gore and westbrook in the backfield, get Walker/crabtree in motion all kinds of looks...but i like the progress do far