When is it best to run the ball.

I'm actually asking this question to folks on here who have experience coaching and/or experience playing on the defensive line.

This thought came up due to how easy that rushing TD was by Gore on our last drive.

Wouldn't it be better to run the ball later in the drive after the offense has thrown a few passes rather than running the ball early in the drive? I mean, I know you can mentally drain them by overpowering them but would that be the best strategy?

I mean, don't defensive linemen get more tired from rushing the passer than from playing the run? When they rush the passer, they must not only explode off the line but force a lot of open movement in trying to get to the QB, especially on screen passes. Therefore, if you get them breathing hard with some consecutive passes and get them running around even more with some screen passes, won't it be easier to control them on the LOS on a run play?

Now let's say they are fresh and it's first down and we run. They have much more energy and power to stop the run but if you pass, then you are immediately forcing them to use energy when they may not even get to the QB.

Or I could be completely off with this strategy and the run tires defensive linemen more than the pass.

Works for me in Madden all the time.

Originally posted by zillabeast:
Works for me in Madden all the time.

Maybe you should activate the setting where players are supposed to get tired. Or is that default these days and only for the older "unrealistic" Madden.

Obviously theres the old 'run to set up that pass' however teams seem to flip that around now with the game becoming so pass oriented.

What I saw Monday night and what I think could be good going forward is running more draw plays out of shotgun. Teams like the saints which are so aggressive on defense can be had when you throw misdirections, draws, counters etc.. at them to hurt their over pursuit.

To answer your question, when is it best to run?
Id say if were the team Sing says we are we should run it on everybody.
That being said sometimes our playcalling is blatantly obvious and it hurts us.

We should keep it around a 50-50 ratio when possible but air it out more to open up lanes for gore, dix, and westbrook to run through.

If teams know were gonna run its hard to execute the plays effectively.

The problem is Singletary's vision. He thinks we can pound any time we want. With the offensive line we have he feels we should be able to run effectively at will. That won't happen as teams have figured to shoot the gaps on us. That stops Gore all the time no matter how good the line is or will be.

I have always said to spread the defense out to create room for Gore to run. Exactly what happened on the final drive on Monday.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by zillabeast:
Works for me in Madden all the time.

Maybe you should activate the setting where players are supposed to get tired. Or is that default these days and only for the older "unrealistic" Madden.

I'm an NFK2K5 guy so I completely feel you, brother.

Not to sound facetious, but you run the ball when it's working and/or to eat up the clock. There is of course, the old adage that you run to set up the pass, but if it ain't working, go to plan B; pass to set up the run. Most O linemen like run blocking because they can tee off on guys, just like D linemen like to rush the passer. Conditions dictate the choice, it really is that simple. What's working? JMHO

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm actually asking this question to folks on here who have experience coaching and/or experience playing on the defensive line.

This thought came up due to how easy that rushing TD was by Gore on our last drive.

Wouldn't it be better to run the ball later in the drive after the offense has thrown a few passes rather than running the ball early in the drive? I mean, I know you can mentally drain them by overpowering them but would that be the best strategy?

I mean, don't defensive linemen get more tired from rushing the passer than from playing the run? When they rush the passer, they must not only explode off the line but force a lot of open movement in trying to get to the QB, especially on screen passes. Therefore, if you get them breathing hard with some consecutive passes and get them running around even more with some screen passes, won't it be easier to control them on the LOS on a run play?

Now let's say they are fresh and it's first down and we run. They have much more energy and power to stop the run but if you pass, then you are immediately forcing them to use energy when they may not even get to the QB.

Or I could be completely off with this strategy and the run tires defensive linemen more than the pass.

Funny as I have thought about this for some time as well. I have not played the Dline and have no coaching experience but from the outset of a game it just makes sense to soften a defense up a bit by throwing and maybe get them playing on their heels a bit. They will also tire for the reasons you mention and will get guys out of the box. Get Dlinemen guessing on gaps and thinking pass pressure and then you get a Iupati or Rachal to pull with Byham behind them for massive holes and large gains. As soon as we Smith started to open up the field a bit during the Saints game, the running game looked entirely different and more effective. During the old school 49er days we always opened up with passes (even short ones) to get the run game going. You can still be smash mouth this way..... just a slightly different strategy.

I'm not really taking about this in terms of when the defense is expecting it such as running or passing to set up the other in terms of what the defense is calling.

I mean more in terms of getting more success in terms of how tired the defense is. Of course, the goal is to be able to run whenever you would like but think in more minute details such as possible making 4 yard gains into 6 yard gains by running at times when the defensive line would be more tired.

I'm not saying anything about an overall strategy against a type of defense such as an aggressive pin the ears back defense. Let's say we play Minnesota. Wouldn't it be better to run after we have made that defensive line run around a lot and use more energy by trying to get to the QB. Now, even if they expect the run, they don't have as much maximum energy to use compared to if we were to run on the first play.

Basically, does a defensive line lose more energy when trying to rush the passer or when trying to stop the run? If so, then wouldn't it be wise to run after we forced them to rush the passer a few times?

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm not really taking about this in terms of when the defense is expecting it such as running or passing to set up the other in terms of what the defense is calling.

I mean more in terms of getting more success in terms of how tired the defense is. Of course, the goal is to be able to run whenever you would like but think in more minute details such as possible making 4 yard gains into 6 yard gains by running at times when the defensive line would be more tired.

I'm not saying anything about an overall strategy against a type of defense such as an aggressive pin the ears back defense. Let's say we play Minnesota. Wouldn't it be better to run after we have made that defensive line run around a lot and use more energy by trying to get to the QB. Now, even if they expect the run, they don't have as much maximum energy to use compared to if we were to run on the first play.

Basically, does a defensive line lose more energy when trying to rush the passer or when trying to stop the run? If so, then wouldn't it be wise to run after we forced them to rush the passer a few times?

Indy killed the Giants with it on Sunday Night. Peyton audibled the run to death. The end result was nearly 200 yards rushing.

Originally posted by loyal9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm actually asking this question to folks on here who have experience coaching and/or experience playing on the defensive line.

This thought came up due to how easy that rushing TD was by Gore on our last drive.

Wouldn't it be better to run the ball later in the drive after the offense has thrown a few passes rather than running the ball early in the drive? I mean, I know you can mentally drain them by overpowering them but would that be the best strategy?

I mean, don't defensive linemen get more tired from rushing the passer than from playing the run? When they rush the passer, they must not only explode off the line but force a lot of open movement in trying to get to the QB, especially on screen passes. Therefore, if you get them breathing hard with some consecutive passes and get them running around even more with some screen passes, won't it be easier to control them on the LOS on a run play?

Now let's say they are fresh and it's first down and we run. They have much more energy and power to stop the run but if you pass, then you are immediately forcing them to use energy when they may not even get to the QB.

Or I could be completely off with this strategy and the run tires defensive linemen more than the pass.

Funny as I have thought about this for some time as well. I have not played the Dline and have no coaching experience but from the outset of a game it just makes sense to soften a defense up a bit by throwing and maybe get them playing on their heels a bit. They will also tire for the reasons you mention and will get guys out of the box. Get Dlinemen guessing on gaps and thinking pass pressure and then you get a Iupati or Rachal to pull with Byham behind them for massive holes and large gains. As soon as we Smith started to open up the field a bit during the Saints game, the running game looked entirely different and more effective. During the old school 49er days we always opened up with passes (even short ones) to get the run game going. You can still be smash mouth this way..... just a slightly different strategy.

Exactly! It seems as though running the ball against a fresh defense no matter how strong the offensive line is only makes it slightly more difficult to get success. Not only are you running on obvious rushing downs, but you are running when the defense has more energy to exert whereas if you pass, they can't exert maximum energy and still not affect a passing play. The defense does have a direct affect on a running play with more energy.

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm not really taking about this in terms of when the defense is expecting it such as running or passing to set up the other in terms of what the defense is calling.

I mean more in terms of getting more success in terms of how tired the defense is. Of course, the goal is to be able to run whenever you would like but think in more minute details such as possible making 4 yard gains into 6 yard gains by running at times when the defensive line would be more tired.

I'm not saying anything about an overall strategy against a type of defense such as an aggressive pin the ears back defense. Let's say we play Minnesota. Wouldn't it be better to run after we have made that defensive line run around a lot and use more energy by trying to get to the QB. Now, even if they expect the run, they don't have as much maximum energy to use compared to if we were to run on the first play.

Basically, does a defensive line lose more energy when trying to rush the passer or when trying to stop the run? If so, then wouldn't it be wise to run after we forced them to rush the passer a few times?

That's exactly what the Saints did to Minnesota in week 1. They threw all over the place in the first half and then ran the ball at the Williams wall in the 2nd half and had success against probably the best rush defense in the league.

Originally posted by zillabeast:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm not really taking about this in terms of when the defense is expecting it such as running or passing to set up the other in terms of what the defense is calling.

I mean more in terms of getting more success in terms of how tired the defense is. Of course, the goal is to be able to run whenever you would like but think in more minute details such as possible making 4 yard gains into 6 yard gains by running at times when the defensive line would be more tired.

I'm not saying anything about an overall strategy against a type of defense such as an aggressive pin the ears back defense. Let's say we play Minnesota. Wouldn't it be better to run after we have made that defensive line run around a lot and use more energy by trying to get to the QB. Now, even if they expect the run, they don't have as much maximum energy to use compared to if we were to run on the first play.

Basically, does a defensive line lose more energy when trying to rush the passer or when trying to stop the run? If so, then wouldn't it be wise to run after we forced them to rush the passer a few times?

Indy killed the Giants with it on Sunday Night. Peyton audibled the run to death. The end result was nearly 200 yards rushing.

Jimmy Raye called a good game but I really hope he is as detailed in his strategy as this. It could be the difference in gaining 4 yards to 6 yards.

[ Edited by Joecool on Sep 22, 2010 at 11:07:54 ]

Originally posted by Joecool:
Basically, does a defensive line lose more energy when trying to rush the passer or when trying to stop the run? If so, then wouldn't it be wise to run after we forced them to rush the passer a few times?

Neither. It should be an all out effort on every play. Inside running grades interior linemen a bit more than rushing the passer due to the nature of the play.

With the way teams rotate defensive linemen, loss of energy really isn't the issue. More so, it's scheme, balance and execution that can truly throw off a team. The Saints rushed three defensive linemen and had five defensive backs on the field when Gore scored his touchdown. When you've got guards getting to the second level, it's an easy mismatch.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by zillabeast:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm not really taking about this in terms of when the defense is expecting it such as running or passing to set up the other in terms of what the defense is calling.

I mean more in terms of getting more success in terms of how tired the defense is. Of course, the goal is to be able to run whenever you would like but think in more minute details such as possible making 4 yard gains into 6 yard gains by running at times when the defensive line would be more tired.

I'm not saying anything about an overall strategy against a type of defense such as an aggressive pin the ears back defense. Let's say we play Minnesota. Wouldn't it be better to run after we have made that defensive line run around a lot and use more energy by trying to get to the QB. Now, even if they expect the run, they don't have as much maximum energy to use compared to if we were to run on the first play.

Basically, does a defensive line lose more energy when trying to rush the passer or when trying to stop the run? If so, then wouldn't it be wise to run after we forced them to rush the passer a few times?

Indy killed the Giants with it on Sunday Night. Peyton audibled the run to death. The end result was nearly 200 yards rushing.

Jimmy Raye called a good game but I really hope he is as detailed in his strategy as this. It could be the difference in gaining 4 yards to 6 yards.

The only problem I see with that philosophy and ESPN showed this stat on Monday night is this, when we give Gore more than 10 touches in the first half we are 17-13. When we give him less our record is like 7-19 or something like that.

Just like the o-line, Gore may need to get in a rhythm early on.