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Why do we suck so bad vs screen passes
Sep 21, 2010 at 7:02 AM
- lamontb
- Veteran
- Posts: 30,015
Yea it's much bigger than the Saints game. The screen pass killed this defense all last year. That's why it's disturbing. When you have a constant problem you might want to work on that b/c offenses sure know how to exploit it.
Sep 21, 2010 at 9:06 AM
- 49rz4Life
- Member
- Posts: 670
Originally posted by 49rz4Life:
Every team coming to play us knows we have this problem and they catch us with the same schemes. With that many lbs on the field there should be one designated to the rb. We did that but I'm sorry P Willie was getting burned and he needs to brush up on that with some more one on ones with Frank.
Nobody is taking away from the fact that he is the heart of the defense but in fact he got burnt twice. The td play and a key first down conversion reggie bush made in the fourth when two guys got juked chasing him. Nothing wrong with perfecting your position jeez.
Sep 21, 2010 at 9:11 AM
- Archie
- Veteran
- Posts: 682
Players don't execute defensively and I don't think they study film properly. It's one thing to know that a team runs screen passes but it's another thing to understand the situation when a screen pass will come. I knew the Saints would run screen passes to the right side of their line and I knew it because that's what they did last time they played us and that's what they did against the Vikings in the championship game. In other games, the screen to the right of the line is one plays they execute best so they run it all the time. The seam pass that Colston caught to setup for the winning field goal is a play that the Saints have run many times in that situation. A lot of our problems have nothing to do with coaching but execution and teams like the Saints and Colts win because of execution not because they are smarter than everybody. Watch Saints games and Colts games and you see the same plays but they execute so well....
Sep 21, 2010 at 9:19 AM
- dj43
- Moderator
- Posts: 35,654
One reason is because the 49er offense does not incorporate screen passes to any significant degree.
Teams get good at defending things that their offense does well. When the offense is running screens in practice, the defense learns how to defend it.
I recall stories of Bill Walsh and George Seifert arguing about whether Walsh should even attempt to run certain plays because Seifert was showing him how easy it was to defend it. In the end, each side of the ball helped to other side to improve.
Last night NO ran about five different screen patterns that I recall, and each of them was pretty well disguised. It is an area the team needs to improve on, both on defense and offense.
Teams get good at defending things that their offense does well. When the offense is running screens in practice, the defense learns how to defend it.
I recall stories of Bill Walsh and George Seifert arguing about whether Walsh should even attempt to run certain plays because Seifert was showing him how easy it was to defend it. In the end, each side of the ball helped to other side to improve.
Last night NO ran about five different screen patterns that I recall, and each of them was pretty well disguised. It is an area the team needs to improve on, both on defense and offense.
Sep 21, 2010 at 9:43 AM
- Norcal9erfan
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,566
Originally posted by znk916:
Can someone knowledgeable explain or take a guess as to why? We have some of the best and fastest linebackers, and yet we've been getting killed on screens since the beginning of last year. Too aggressive or what?
Scheme or personnel?
3-4 Defensive scheme.
I had been wondering the same thing for a while now and finally heard a great explanation for why they work so well against us. Chucky said it was because we ran a 3-4 defense and expanded on the explanation. I don't remember all of the details, but maybe someone can fill in if they go back and watch the replay of the game?? I think he said it around the 3d quarter??
Sep 21, 2010 at 9:44 AM
- znk916
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,285
Originally posted by dj43:
One reason is because the 49er offense does not incorporate screen passes to any significant degree.
Teams get good at defending things that their offense does well. When the offense is running screens in practice, the defense learns how to defend it.
I recall stories of Bill Walsh and George Seifert arguing about whether Walsh should even attempt to run certain plays because Seifert was showing him how easy it was to defend it. In the end, each side of the ball helped to other side to improve.
Last night NO ran about five different screen patterns that I recall, and each of them was pretty well disguised. It is an area the team needs to improve on, both on defense and offense.
Very good point, I remember thinking that as last season unfolded under Raye and I noticed we hardly ran any screens for Gore, instead we ran alot more WR bubble screens to Morgan and Crabs.
Sep 21, 2010 at 9:44 AM
- Norcal9erfan
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,566
Originally posted by dj43:
One reason is because the 49er offense does not incorporate screen passes to any significant degree.
Teams get good at defending things that their offense does well. When the offense is running screens in practice, the defense learns how to defend it.
I recall stories of Bill Walsh and George Seifert arguing about whether Walsh should even attempt to run certain plays because Seifert was showing him how easy it was to defend it. In the end, each side of the ball helped to other side to improve.
Last night NO ran about five different screen patterns that I recall, and each of them was pretty well disguised. It is an area the team needs to improve on, both on defense and offense.
I disagree with that DJ. We run, or at least try to run, several screens every game, but flat out suck at running them. We look horrible whenever we try in games. I saw at least 4 last night and all were !
Sep 21, 2010 at 9:54 AM
- znk916
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,285
Originally posted by Norcal9erfan:Originally posted by dj43:
One reason is because the 49er offense does not incorporate screen passes to any significant degree.
Teams get good at defending things that their offense does well. When the offense is running screens in practice, the defense learns how to defend it.
I recall stories of Bill Walsh and George Seifert arguing about whether Walsh should even attempt to run certain plays because Seifert was showing him how easy it was to defend it. In the end, each side of the ball helped to other side to improve.
Last night NO ran about five different screen patterns that I recall, and each of them was pretty well disguised. It is an area the team needs to improve on, both on defense and offense.
I disagree with that DJ. We run, or at least try to run, several screens every game, but flat out suck at running them. We look horrible whenever we try in games. I saw at least 4 last night and all were !
I think we ran one screen to him last night on the last drive, rest were checkdowns
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:02 AM
- m_brockalexander
- Veteran
- Posts: 13,185
I don't think we suck against screen passes. Yes, the Niners gave up some first downs on the SIX different versions of screen passes that the Saints threw at them, but NO game breaking plays. Just like last week, our opponents are counting on the Niners defense being aggressive and trying to use it against them.
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:07 AM
- Blitz
- Veteran
- Posts: 7,858
I think the Niner's did a good job of recognizing they were getting their asses whipped by the screen and making adjustments. It looked to me like they pretty much had those shut down in the second half.
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:11 AM
- dj43
- Moderator
- Posts: 35,654
Originally posted by Norcal9erfan:You just proved my point.Originally posted by dj43:
One reason is because the 49er offense does not incorporate screen passes to any significant degree.
Teams get good at defending things that their offense does well. When the offense is running screens in practice, the defense learns how to defend it.
I recall stories of Bill Walsh and George Seifert arguing about whether Walsh should even attempt to run certain plays because Seifert was showing him how easy it was to defend it. In the end, each side of the ball helped to other side to improve.
Last night NO ran about five different screen patterns that I recall, and each of them was pretty well disguised. It is an area the team needs to improve on, both on defense and offense.
I disagree with that DJ. We run, or at least try to run, several screens every game, but flat out suck at running them. We look horrible whenever we try in games. I saw at least 4 last night and all were !
The 49er offense obviously does not spend much time on screens as everything they have run are just very basic stuff. Those basic plays don't fool anybody unless the defense has really over-commited. If they had a more varied inventory of screens, and practiced them in practice, they would be better on both sides of the ball.
NO, on the other hand, has multiple looks and different receivers - they ran three different patterns to backs, two to the TE, and I assume they have a bubble screen although I don't recall it last night.
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:26 AM
- GolittaCamper
- Veteran
- Posts: 7,277
In football, every defense has strengths and weakness, you have to give up something to get something, it is in my opinion one of the best parts of watching the game. Our 3-4 Defense is by nature poor against the screen, further the cover 4 zone we put in place to stymie the Saint deep passing game, and the narrow edges we set to stop the power run game (the Saints tore up the Vikings with power running) further both weakened our ability to stop the screen.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have seen Breese pass for 400 plus yards ad a handful of TDs? Or perhaps you would like to see them hold the ball for 35-40 minutes with the power run game? All in all the screen pass is the lesser of the Saints weapons, and we were able to hold it to small gains, and force them to punt, a very good defensive game plan.
It was not the screen game of the Saints, it was the sloppiness of a poorly coached 49er team that cost lost this game. Poor execution, poor clock management, and bad special teams. These were all the same culprits that cost us games last year, I had really hoped Singletary had matured as a head coach this season and that we would not be here making the same mistakes, again. I am more that disappointed with Singletary.
Defensive Game plan A+
Offensive Game plan A (good job Jimmy Raye)
Special Teams D
Game Management D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Attention to Detail D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Over all a very good performance, I put this loss squarely in Singletary.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have seen Breese pass for 400 plus yards ad a handful of TDs? Or perhaps you would like to see them hold the ball for 35-40 minutes with the power run game? All in all the screen pass is the lesser of the Saints weapons, and we were able to hold it to small gains, and force them to punt, a very good defensive game plan.
It was not the screen game of the Saints, it was the sloppiness of a poorly coached 49er team that cost lost this game. Poor execution, poor clock management, and bad special teams. These were all the same culprits that cost us games last year, I had really hoped Singletary had matured as a head coach this season and that we would not be here making the same mistakes, again. I am more that disappointed with Singletary.
Defensive Game plan A+
Offensive Game plan A (good job Jimmy Raye)
Special Teams D
Game Management D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Attention to Detail D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Over all a very good performance, I put this loss squarely in Singletary.
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:34 AM
- dj43
- Moderator
- Posts: 35,654
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:I have no quarrel with the first three but I don't agree with the last two. For the first time in a long time the game management was fine and details didn't cost the game. The game changing plays were Walker's failure to keep the ball tight and secure, and Adams failure to catch the punt. (Bush dropped a punt also in the wind)
In football, every defense has strengths and weakness, you have to give up something to get something, it is in my opinion one of the best parts of watching the game. Our 3-4 Defense is by nature poor against the screen, further the cover 4 zone we put in place to stymie the Saint deep passing game, and the narrow edges we set to stop the power run game (the Saints tore up the Vikings with power running) further both weakened our ability to stop the screen.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have seen Breese pass for 400 plus yards ad a handful of TDs? Or perhaps you would like to see them hold the ball for 35-40 minutes with the power run game? All in all the screen pass is the lesser of the Saints weapons, and we were able to hold it to small gains, and force them to punt, a very good defensive game plan.
It was not the screen game of the Saints, it was the sloppiness of a poorly coached 49er team that cost lost this game. Poor execution, poor clock management, and bad special teams. These were all the same culprits that cost us games last year, I had really hoped Singletary had matured as a head coach this season and that we would not be here making the same mistakes, again. I am more that disappointed with Singletary.
Defensive Game plan A+
Offensive Game plan A (good job Jimmy Raye)
Special Teams D
Game Management D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Attention to Detail D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Over all a very good performance, I put this loss squarely in Singletary.
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:39 AM
- sincalfaithful
- Veteran
- Posts: 27,712
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:he didn't turn the ball over
In football, every defense has strengths and weakness, you have to give up something to get something, it is in my opinion one of the best parts of watching the game. Our 3-4 Defense is by nature poor against the screen, further the cover 4 zone we put in place to stymie the Saint deep passing game, and the narrow edges we set to stop the power run game (the Saints tore up the Vikings with power running) further both weakened our ability to stop the screen.
Let me ask you this, would you rather have seen Breese pass for 400 plus yards ad a handful of TDs? Or perhaps you would like to see them hold the ball for 35-40 minutes with the power run game? All in all the screen pass is the lesser of the Saints weapons, and we were able to hold it to small gains, and force them to punt, a very good defensive game plan.
It was not the screen game of the Saints, it was the sloppiness of a poorly coached 49er team that cost lost this game. Poor execution, poor clock management, and bad special teams. These were all the same culprits that cost us games last year, I had really hoped Singletary had matured as a head coach this season and that we would not be here making the same mistakes, again. I am more that disappointed with Singletary.
Defensive Game plan A+
Offensive Game plan A (good job Jimmy Raye)
Special Teams D
Game Management D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Attention to Detail D (Work Harder coach Singletary)
Over all a very good performance, I put this loss squarely in Singletary.
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:41 AM
- blm7754
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,781
defending screen passes has nothing to do with our LBs. It has to do with our DL being too aggressive. To defend a screen, a DL must realize that he got through the line too easy, stop and back peddle, and make the play. The line of scrimmage is where the catch is usually made, so its up to the DL since the LBs are getting blown out by a bunch of OL.