Out of the starting front seven, who is the weakest link?

Who is voted Willis? .. I know who is Vald33.. and who is else for three ppl that they hate for the 49ers..

Haralson

He has single handedly cost us games. Soap is second but Haralson is our biggest liability

Originally posted by BuZzB28:
Who is voted Willis? .. I know who is Vald33.. and who is else for three ppl that they hate for the 49ers..

Already in midseason form I see.

Originally posted by AKfanster:
Haralson had a pretty good season in 08, but since then, he's kinda fell off a bit. At the start of 08, Haralson wasn't the starting WILL. Remember how Nolan was trying to make Justin Smith a LB? Nolan would line him up all over the place, including weakside LB. Haralson was more of a pass rush specialist. I thought he did outstanding in that role. Even after he became the starter, he still played well. Actually, Haralson had 4 sacks while coming off the bench in the 1st half of the season and another 4 after becoming the starter half way through the year.

Watching him last season, I thought his feet were dipped in cement. The guy looked so much slower than the rest of the defense. After the season was over, I read that he had played most of the year with a nagging hip injury. I had assumed that Haralson would return to form this year, maybe even reaching double digit sacks.

This preseason, I haven't really noticed Haralson. Granted, he hasn't a lot of playing time. He's played a couple of series in each game, that isn't very much time. Hopefully, he will turn it on in the regular season. The team needs a consistent source of pressure besides Justin Smith.
If Haralson does struggle to get after the QB, how long before the team starts looking at one of the backups? Brooks, Briggs, or Laboy have shown they can get to the QB. I figure the team will carry at least 2 of the 3 previously mentioned guys.

Hey AK. My guess is that we keep all 5 b/c it's somewhat expected that Lawson will be gone next year. We might as well groom them this year. LaBoy has always had serious talent as seen last game. Briggs is an ideal pass rushing specialist right now (needs conditioning) but it was GREAT to finally see consistent pressure from BOTH the SAM & WILL spots even if it is preseason. THAT is how this defense is designed and you could see the CB's and safeties T-ing off and playing much more aggressively. Like you, I reserve judgement on Haralson until this year but I expect a quick hook for both him and Lawson this year. I think NOT having one, let alone two OLB's that can provide consistent and meaningful pressure on the QB has really hamstrung Manusky and forced him to scheme and bring pressure from other places (d-line, inside LB blitzes, CB and safety blitzes, etc.) but he shouldn't have to rely on that...he should be able to count on his OLB's getting consistent pressure, making plays and attributing to over 50% of the team's overall sacks. That's not to say he shouldn't be scheming sacks too but just not have to play Russian Roulette to do it b/c he can't count on his OLB's. It should be fun to watch this play out esp. once Brooks gets back. One thing for sure, Brooks, Briggs and LaBoy play with some serious passion - they want that job and want to be "the man" and they want to lead the team in sacks, no question. Let the games continue...

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by AKfanster:
Haralson had a pretty good season in 08, but since then, he's kinda fell off a bit. At the start of 08, Haralson wasn't the starting WILL. Remember how Nolan was trying to make Justin Smith a LB? Nolan would line him up all over the place, including weakside LB. Haralson was more of a pass rush specialist. I thought he did outstanding in that role. Even after he became the starter, he still played well. Actually, Haralson had 4 sacks while coming off the bench in the 1st half of the season and another 4 after becoming the starter half way through the year.

Watching him last season, I thought his feet were dipped in cement. The guy looked so much slower than the rest of the defense. After the season was over, I read that he had played most of the year with a nagging hip injury. I had assumed that Haralson would return to form this year, maybe even reaching double digit sacks.

This preseason, I haven't really noticed Haralson. Granted, he hasn't a lot of playing time. He's played a couple of series in each game, that isn't very much time. Hopefully, he will turn it on in the regular season. The team needs a consistent source of pressure besides Justin Smith.
If Haralson does struggle to get after the QB, how long before the team starts looking at one of the backups? Brooks, Briggs, or Laboy have shown they can get to the QB. I figure the team will carry at least 2 of the 3 previously mentioned guys.

Hey AK. My guess is that we keep all 5 b/c it's somewhat expected that Lawson will be gone next year. We might as well groom them this year. LaBoy has always had serious talent as seen last game. Briggs is an ideal pass rushing specialist right now (needs conditioning) but it was GREAT to finally see consistent pressure from BOTH the SAM & WILL spots even if it is preseason. THAT is how this defense is designed and you could see the CB's and safeties T-ing off and playing much more aggressively. Like you, I reserve judgement on Haralson until this year but I expect a quick hook for both him and Lawson this year. I think NOT having one, let alone two OLB's that can provide consistent and meaningful pressure on the QB has really hamstrung Manusky and forced him to scheme and bring pressure from other places (d-line, inside LB blitzes, CB and safety blitzes, etc.) but he shouldn't have to rely on that...he should be able to count on his OLB's getting consistent pressure, making plays and attributing to over 50% of the team's overall sacks. That's not to say he shouldn't be scheming sacks too but just not have to play Russian Roulette to do it b/c he can't count on his OLB's. It should be fun to watch this play out esp. once Brooks gets back. One thing for sure, Brooks, Briggs and LaBoy play with some serious passion - they want that job and want to be "the man" and they want to lead the team in sacks, no question. Let the games continue...

If you remember Manusky quoting, basically all the positions are supposed to mirror the other. Though it wouldl be nice for glories sake to see a dominating DL or OLB or MLB getting lots of the sacks, it doesn't bother me if several guys get say 8 sacks and another bunch gets 6. Why? Because the opposing O won't know who or where help is going to be needed. The thing I hope for is that the team not only gets more sacks, but that some of them comes against the better Offenses and not just the like of the Lambs.

Originally posted by WildBill:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by AKfanster:
Haralson had a pretty good season in 08, but since then, he's kinda fell off a bit. At the start of 08, Haralson wasn't the starting WILL. Remember how Nolan was trying to make Justin Smith a LB? Nolan would line him up all over the place, including weakside LB. Haralson was more of a pass rush specialist. I thought he did outstanding in that role. Even after he became the starter, he still played well. Actually, Haralson had 4 sacks while coming off the bench in the 1st half of the season and another 4 after becoming the starter half way through the year.

Watching him last season, I thought his feet were dipped in cement. The guy looked so much slower than the rest of the defense. After the season was over, I read that he had played most of the year with a nagging hip injury. I had assumed that Haralson would return to form this year, maybe even reaching double digit sacks.

This preseason, I haven't really noticed Haralson. Granted, he hasn't a lot of playing time. He's played a couple of series in each game, that isn't very much time. Hopefully, he will turn it on in the regular season. The team needs a consistent source of pressure besides Justin Smith.
If Haralson does struggle to get after the QB, how long before the team starts looking at one of the backups? Brooks, Briggs, or Laboy have shown they can get to the QB. I figure the team will carry at least 2 of the 3 previously mentioned guys.

Hey AK. My guess is that we keep all 5 b/c it's somewhat expected that Lawson will be gone next year. We might as well groom them this year. LaBoy has always had serious talent as seen last game. Briggs is an ideal pass rushing specialist right now (needs conditioning) but it was GREAT to finally see consistent pressure from BOTH the SAM & WILL spots even if it is preseason. THAT is how this defense is designed and you could see the CB's and safeties T-ing off and playing much more aggressively. Like you, I reserve judgement on Haralson until this year but I expect a quick hook for both him and Lawson this year. I think NOT having one, let alone two OLB's that can provide consistent and meaningful pressure on the QB has really hamstrung Manusky and forced him to scheme and bring pressure from other places (d-line, inside LB blitzes, CB and safety blitzes, etc.) but he shouldn't have to rely on that...he should be able to count on his OLB's getting consistent pressure, making plays and attributing to over 50% of the team's overall sacks. That's not to say he shouldn't be scheming sacks too but just not have to play Russian Roulette to do it b/c he can't count on his OLB's. It should be fun to watch this play out esp. once Brooks gets back. One thing for sure, Brooks, Briggs and LaBoy play with some serious passion - they want that job and want to be "the man" and they want to lead the team in sacks, no question. Let the games continue...

If you remember Manusky quoting, basically all the positions are supposed to mirror the other. Though it wouldl be nice for glories sake to see a dominating DL or OLB or MLB getting lots of the sacks, it doesn't bother me if several guys get say 8 sacks and another bunch gets 6. Why? Because the opposing O won't know who or where help is going to be needed. The thing I hope for is that the team not only gets more sacks, but that some of them comes against the better Offenses and not just the like of the Lambs.

I agree. We should mirror what the Steelers have where they have not one but two dominant OLB's who bring consistent pressure and play making ability AND scheme to generate sacks from all over the field as well. They play hand-in-hand. But we just don't have the OLB's yet to do this. As far as scheme goes though, the Jets are probably the best at this point in terms of confusing QB's, o-lines and OC's. If we can get at least one dominant OLB, it opens up a whole new world for Manusky to play up there with the big boys; the best in the league. THAT would be fun to see! It seems every year, Manusky grows!

Originally posted by NCommand:
Tough call b/c they all have major weaknesses right now whether we want to admit it or not:

Franklin - can only play in a one-gap and rarely gets a push and is blown off the ball on short yardage; no drop off seen with RJF so far. That should tell you something. In fact RJF "IS" getting behind the LOS and making many plays.

Sopoaga - the myth isn't that great but comparing run defending stats, there isn't THAT much of a drop off from Smith's side but then again, Smith is dominant. He's is finally getting consistent time growing into ONE position and has played well there.

Smith - his only weakness is that he is still a bit on the smallish side and can get blown off the ball at times and even pancaked and the entire line is very weak at the goalline and in short yardage situations

Haralson - had a hip flexor injury all last season and struggled securing the edge at times but I reserve judgement until this year as last year was his first as a starter. That said, comparing running stats, there wasn't much drop off on his side despite a couple salient runs on his side but that's with help from Smith and Spencer coming up to help.

Lawson - great pay recognition but we all know his pressure/sacks are few and far
between and very few ever "count." Most are as a result of others. His experience allows him to set the edge well. He lacks motivation and passion that we see with guys such as Brooks, Briggs, LaBoy, Smith, and others. Most screens were run to Lawson's side and we sucked defending these last year. He's pulled on pass rushing downs and is rarely used in coverage anymore and his coverage skills are highly overrated on NT.

Spikes - solid, great passion but slow as hell and can't cover. He's a good plug but is too slow to use on blitzes, playing sideline to sideline and in coverage. He's the FB on defense for Willis's glory. Great leader and experience though and who can argue with his dances.

Willis - really needs to work on coverage big time. We are ALWAYS suspect in the middle of the field whether its TE's or crossing WR's. He sometimes gets caught in the pile or behind it but that comes with experience which he's gaining. He needs to continue to work on his play making ability ad play recognition (no longer wears the dot). Not too many weaknesses to say the least.

So who's the weakest? Many of these guys are one-dimensional players but from top to bottom, I'd go with what a player actually DOES, not potential or what he did in the past.

So as of today, our weakest player is Spikes followed by Lawson, Haralson, Franklin and Sopoaga

you know you can make a similar list on just about every front 7 in the NFL right?

Haralson is CLEARLY the weakest link. Opposing offenses obviously include many
outside runs to his side to take advantage of his lack of speed and athleticism,
and many short passes (similar to the 13yard to petersen on sunday) for the same
reason. you will VERY RARELY see those kinds of gains on manny's side. more often
than not, outside runs to his side get stopped for a loss...

1) because MANNY LAWSON IS A VERY VERY GOOD 34OLB
2) because sopoaga is very good at handling his run responsibilities

i do think sopoaga is number 2 on this list, but he is a VERY DISTANT 2nd.
while he doesnt make many flashy plays he is not someone oppossing offenses
can really exploit. if you're an OC facing the 9ers D, and it's 3rd & 3, i can think
of several ways to vicitimize haralson for those 3 or 4 yards. hard to think that
about sopoaga just because of the nature of his role. yes it would be nice if we
could get a few more sacks from sopoaga, but you could DEFINITELY say the
same thing about haralson.

Originally posted by defenderDX:
Willis without a doubt. Dude is slow and can't tackle.

This. Dude sucks. Get him out of San Fran!

Originally posted by 9erHIGH:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Tough call b/c they all have major weaknesses right now whether we want to admit it or not:

Franklin - can only play in a one-gap and rarely gets a push and is blown off the ball on short yardage; no drop off seen with RJF so far. That should tell you something. In fact RJF "IS" getting behind the LOS and making many plays.

Sopoaga - the myth isn't that great but comparing run defending stats, there isn't THAT much of a drop off from Smith's side but then again, Smith is dominant. He's is finally getting consistent time growing into ONE position and has played well there.

Smith - his only weakness is that he is still a bit on the smallish side and can get blown off the ball at times and even pancaked and the entire line is very weak at the goalline and in short yardage situations

Haralson - had a hip flexor injury all last season and struggled securing the edge at times but I reserve judgement until this year as last year was his first as a starter. That said, comparing running stats, there wasn't much drop off on his side despite a couple salient runs on his side but that's with help from Smith and Spencer coming up to help.

Lawson - great pay recognition but we all know his pressure/sacks are few and far
between and very few ever "count." Most are as a result of others. His experience allows him to set the edge well. He lacks motivation and passion that we see with guys such as Brooks, Briggs, LaBoy, Smith, and others. Most screens were run to Lawson's side and we sucked defending these last year. He's pulled on pass rushing downs and is rarely used in coverage anymore and his coverage skills are highly overrated on NT.

Spikes - solid, great passion but slow as hell and can't cover. He's a good plug but is too slow to use on blitzes, playing sideline to sideline and in coverage. He's the FB on defense for Willis's glory. Great leader and experience though and who can argue with his dances.

Willis - really needs to work on coverage big time. We are ALWAYS suspect in the middle of the field whether its TE's or crossing WR's. He sometimes gets caught in the pile or behind it but that comes with experience which he's gaining. He needs to continue to work on his play making ability ad play recognition (no longer wears the dot). Not too many weaknesses to say the least.

So who's the weakest? Many of these guys are one-dimensional players but from top to bottom, I'd go with what a player actually DOES, not potential or what he did in the past.

So as of today, our weakest player is Spikes followed by Lawson, Haralson, Franklin and Sopoaga

you know you can make a similar list on just about every front 7 in the NFL right?

Of course! Every player has weaknesses but as a "team" this is a pretty solid group with their work cut out for them. Remember, this is a defense that has played together, under the same DC and scheme for many years now so its much easier to "see" where our individual and team weaknesses are. I think at this point, even the most biased and casual fan can agree with many of these weaknesses. They've been well documented.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9erHIGH:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Tough call b/c they all have major weaknesses right now whether we want to admit it or not:

Franklin - can only play in a one-gap and rarely gets a push and is blown off the ball on short yardage; no drop off seen with RJF so far. That should tell you something. In fact RJF "IS" getting behind the LOS and making many plays.

Sopoaga - the myth isn't that great but comparing run defending stats, there isn't THAT much of a drop off from Smith's side but then again, Smith is dominant. He's is finally getting consistent time growing into ONE position and has played well there.

Smith - his only weakness is that he is still a bit on the smallish side and can get blown off the ball at times and even pancaked and the entire line is very weak at the goalline and in short yardage situations

Haralson - had a hip flexor injury all last season and struggled securing the edge at times but I reserve judgement until this year as last year was his first as a starter. That said, comparing running stats, there wasn't much drop off on his side despite a couple salient runs on his side but that's with help from Smith and Spencer coming up to help.

Lawson - great pay recognition but we all know his pressure/sacks are few and far
between and very few ever "count." Most are as a result of others. His experience allows him to set the edge well. He lacks motivation and passion that we see with guys such as Brooks, Briggs, LaBoy, Smith, and others. Most screens were run to Lawson's side and we sucked defending these last year. He's pulled on pass rushing downs and is rarely used in coverage anymore and his coverage skills are highly overrated on NT.

Spikes - solid, great passion but slow as hell and can't cover. He's a good plug but is too slow to use on blitzes, playing sideline to sideline and in coverage. He's the FB on defense for Willis's glory. Great leader and experience though and who can argue with his dances.

Willis - really needs to work on coverage big time. We are ALWAYS suspect in the middle of the field whether its TE's or crossing WR's. He sometimes gets caught in the pile or behind it but that comes with experience which he's gaining. He needs to continue to work on his play making ability ad play recognition (no longer wears the dot). Not too many weaknesses to say the least.

So who's the weakest? Many of these guys are one-dimensional players but from top to bottom, I'd go with what a player actually DOES, not potential or what he did in the past.

So as of today, our weakest player is Spikes followed by Lawson, Haralson, Franklin and Sopoaga

you know you can make a similar list on just about every front 7 in the NFL right?

Of course! Every player has weaknesses but as a "team" this is a pretty solid group with their work cut out for them. Remember, this is a defense that has played together, under the same DC and scheme for many years now so its much easier to "see" where our individual and team weaknesses are. I think at this point, even the most biased and casual fan can agree with many of these weaknesses. They've been well documented.

just checking, cuz if you think spikes is our weakest link you're on crack. sorry,
i mean no disrespect, but that's a ridiculous statement. yes he is a role player of
sorts and has some limitations, but what he has brought and continues to bring
to the table in terms of veteran presence and leadership, and what that has meant
to the development and growth of patrick willis is immeasurable. PLUS the guy
STILL MAKES A LOT OF PLAYS!!! that's exactly why we know him for his dances
so well. he has reason to dance cuz he makes plays. of course he is nearing
the end of his career, and i feel MUCH better about that with bowman here.

...and i'm also curious to know what you mean by "they've been well documented."
if they are in fact so well documented. it should be a snap for you to produce a few
of those "documents" right? ...just to inform those of us who are as knowledgable

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Easily Haralson - he should be used only on passing downs.

He isn't much of a passrusher either.

Originally posted by SanFranAddic:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Easily Haralson - he should be used only on passing downs.

He isn't much of a passrusher either.

...and he's not very good in coverage either.

Originally posted by 9erHIGH:
just checking, cuz if you think spikes is our weakest link you're on crack. sorry, i mean no disrespect, but that's a ridiculous statement. yes he is a role player of sorts and has some limitations, but what he has brought and continues to bring to the table in terms of veteran presence and leadership, and what that has meant to the development and growth of patrick willis is immeasurable. PLUS the guy STILL MAKES A LOT OF PLAYS!!! that's exactly why we know him for his dances so well. he has reason to dance cuz he makes plays. of course he is nearing the end of his career, and i feel MUCH better about that with bowman here.

Crack huh? LOL. The question was who is the weakest link of the listed, right? I gave a no-grade to Haralson b/c he was so injured last year and it was his first year as a starter. We'll see how he does this year. Of the rest, yes, Spikes is up there in age, is a liablity in coverage (big time), is a solid tackler but not a great tackler, is slow sideline to sideline, etc. This is the reason the Niners have tried several others out at the TED spot over the years including drafting one last year AND this year. I'm certainly not dismissing him as unimportant to this team or appreciate the work ethic and intangibles he brings to the table but let's be real too. He can be replaced the easiest b/c of the other players around him. He was a great p/u though!

Originally posted by 9erHIGH:
...and i'm also curious to know what you mean by "they've been well documented." if they are in fact so well documented. it should be a snap for you to produce a few of those "documents" right? ...just to inform those of us who are as knowledgable

You need documentation? The aforementioned players have ALL played in this defense for several+ years now. All of their strengths and weaknesses have been heavily documented on...wait for it...Niner Talk.

Most of you say Parys, which is an obvious pick, but at his age I'm going to have to say Takeo is at this point our weakest link. Parys has more upside, and more coverage ability. Takeo is a good run stopper, but that's about it.