Can you see Zeigler becoming our #2?

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

no one is hating on him every1 thinks hes a reliable WR however he hasnt proved much at all and morgan is much better at this point and has proved much more

Morgan has proven very little on the field. Don't fool yourself. I like Josh Morgan, but he is overrated here.

The thing that scares me about Josh is he used to be a lot more explosive. Don't any of you guys remember his rookie year? His average yards/reception was 16, last year it was only 10, and this year he's struggled to get open during the preseason. Last offseason he looked stronger but probably slower, and he's probably placing too much of an emphasis on being a good blocking WR rather than being an explosive WR to take advantage of his hops.

The Martz offense was the reason for his higher YPC. Martz has done that for just about every receiver he has ever worked with.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

no one is hating on him every1 thinks hes a reliable WR however he hasnt proved much at all and morgan is much better at this point and has proved much more

Morgan has proven very little on the field. Don't fool yourself. I like Josh Morgan, but he is overrated here.

The thing that scares me about Josh is he used to be a lot more explosive. Don't any of you guys remember his rookie year? His average yards/reception was 16, last year it was only 10, and this year he's struggled to get open during the preseason. Last offseason he looked stronger but probably slower, and he's probably placing too much of an emphasis on being a good blocking WR rather than being an explosive WR to take advantage of his hops.

The Martz offense was the reason for his higher YPC. Martz has done that for just about every receiver he has ever worked with.

Dude was a rookie and Shaun Hill was his QB. Basically negating any Martz effect.

No, I can't see it.

But then again, very little of what the 49ers have done since the 1990's have made too much sense to me.

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

You don't "hide" guys you you value on the practice squad. You have to cut a guy and he has to clear waivers to make the PS. You think the 49ers are the only team that scouts other team's late round picks and walk-on's to see if they hit the waiver wire?

Even then a PS player can still be signed away by any team at any time. All they have to do is put him on their roster. How does a guy go three seasons without any of the other 29 teams wanting anything to do with him if he's so good? The 9ers must be REALLY good at "hiding" him. Better than they were at hiding Kory Sheets and Bear Pascoe anyways.

Originally posted by 49erFan:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:
I think the biggest clue that he is a lock to make the roster, comes from the fact he didn't do any punt returning... It appears that Sing doesn't think he needs to standout as a returner to grab a spot.

Or knows that he can't.

I suppose you could cast that spin on it too. However, Sing talked about three guys possibly returning punts in the Vikes game. Guillory, Zeigler and Ginn. I think it's more likely that Sing knows what he has in Ginn, and Zeigler.

Right, he knows that Zeigler has always had problems with it, in camp and in PS games in previous years. Unless he's seen something consistent and special in camp, something he doesn't want to see in games, I doubt he has a lot of confidence in Zeigler as a ST player.

We'll see what happens on Sat in Oakland. I think the Guillory (sp) experiment has run it's course.

Zeigler has always had problems with it? Can't say I have heard that... In fact, Singletary seems to feel he is reliable back there, if needed.

Link
-Q: Are you looking at Ziegler seriously as a punt returner?

-SINGLETARY: He’s more of an emergency guy for us, but I know that there are a couple things about Ziegler. He’s a very dependable guy. He has been up to this point. So it’s certainly a situation, which if we had to, we would.

As for your doubts that he has confidence in Zeigler as a ST player, you may be interested in this quote from the same link...

-Q: Is it uncommon to have a guy his weight so comfortable going over the middle on routes?

-SINGLETARY: He’s a unique guy. Very unselfish, he doesn’t mind going across the middle or going underneath, doing some of the dirty work. He’s a guy who does everything for us. He wears a lot of different hats.

He can play any of the receiver positions, give us some flexibility and he’s really good on special teams as well.

If you disagree Zeigler should be #2, we can agree on that. If you don't think he is going to make this team, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Injury is the only way we are not going to see Zeigler on the final 53.

Sing is just talking him up. If he really thought that wouldn't he actually PLAY ON SPECIAL TEAMS?

^^ He's been returning punts in training camp and I think that he's also returned some punts or kicks in the last couple preseason games.

-9fA

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Remember, it is never good to act certain when it comes to having opinions on professional athletes. In 2008, there were many cries from the fan base to severe its ties with Vernon Davis. In 2009, there were many fans who were certain Shaun Hill was a superior QB to Alex Smith. In 2010, there are those who are absolutely certain Heitmann is the best player on the team, even thought others disagree.

As for Josh Morgan, his greatest moment as a 49er came when he fell on a Gore fumble late in the game against Chicago last year. Is that enough for our #2 WR? Yes, I am aware that Morgan is regarded as a good blocker, but is that really the top quality we want out of our wide receiver, the guy who is supposed to catch balls and move chains?

I'm sorry, but this is 2010. The teams that are winning championships can move the ball through the air. We've got a back that can run with little blocking help and an improving O-line. I don't believe we need our WR to be better at blocking than catching balls at this point if we intend to be a balance offense. At least that is my argument.

We cannot pretend to see everything on the field. And I repectfully disagree, even if the OL opens a hole, you need good downfield blocking. Not all teams are the saints. Yes you need to be able to pass the ball. Pittsburgh has won it twice, and though they pass, they run as much too and Hines Ward is a good example. If morgan is pullin the safety away or someone along with the CB, then he is doing his hob even if he doesn't get the ball. He may well get his chance with teams now knowing crabtree can play along with VD, they will go and rotate in their direction. Now, that ibeing the case if he has 1 on 1, he has to get free and catch the ball when thrown his way. With Crab and VD out, teams are keying on him more than Ziggy.

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
^^ He's been returning punts in training camp and I think that he's also returned some punts or kicks in the last couple preseason games.

-9fA

He returned zero in the last game and one in the first PS game. According to everything I've read he has not had any punt return reps in camp in a while. Yesterday's reports specifically named every person that had punt return reps in practice and his name was not mentioned in any of them.

He wasn't anywhere to be found on Special Teams on Sunday night.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erFan:
I think the biggest clue that he is a lock to make the roster, comes from the fact he didn't do any punt returning... It appears that Sing doesn't think he needs to standout as a returner to grab a spot.

Or knows that he can't.

I suppose you could cast that spin on it too. However, Sing talked about three guys possibly returning punts in the Vikes game. Guillory, Zeigler and Ginn. I think it's more likely that Sing knows what he has in Ginn, and Zeigler.

Right, he knows that Zeigler has always had problems with it, in camp and in PS games in previous years. Unless he's seen something consistent and special in camp, something he doesn't want to see in games, I doubt he has a lot of confidence in Zeigler as a ST player.

We'll see what happens on Sat in Oakland. I think the Guillory (sp) experiment has run it's course.

Zeigler has always had problems with it? Can't say I have heard that... In fact, Singletary seems to feel he is reliable back there, if needed.

Link
-Q: Are you looking at Ziegler seriously as a punt returner?

-SINGLETARY: He’s more of an emergency guy for us, but I know that there are a couple things about Ziegler. He’s a very dependable guy. He has been up to this point. So it’s certainly a situation, which if we had to, we would.

As for your doubts that he has confidence in Zeigler as a ST player, you may be interested in this quote from the same link...

-Q: Is it uncommon to have a guy his weight so comfortable going over the middle on routes?

-SINGLETARY: He’s a unique guy. Very unselfish, he doesn’t mind going across the middle or going underneath, doing some of the dirty work. He’s a guy who does everything for us. He wears a lot of different hats.

He can play any of the receiver positions, give us some flexibility and he’s really good on special teams as well.

If you disagree Zeigler should be #2, we can agree on that. If you don't think he is going to make this team, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Injury is the only way we are not going to see Zeigler on the final 53.

Sing is just talking him up. If he really thought that wouldn't he actually PLAY ON SPECIAL TEAMS?

Oh, so now your logic is that Sing is talking up a guy he actually doesn't think is good. Interesting, seeing as Sing is about as open with criticism as a coach gets. Just ask Nate Davis...

As I said, if you don't think he's good enough to make the final 53, we will have to agree to disagree, and come back and visit this thread when the rosters are announced. As for beating out Morgan, I'm with you, it's not happening.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

no one is hating on him every1 thinks hes a reliable WR however he hasnt proved much at all and morgan is much better at this point and has proved much more

Morgan has proven very little on the field. Don't fool yourself. I like Josh Morgan, but he is overrated here.

The thing that scares me about Josh is he used to be a lot more explosive. Don't any of you guys remember his rookie year? His average yards/reception was 16, last year it was only 10, and this year he's struggled to get open during the preseason. Last offseason he looked stronger but probably slower, and he's probably placing too much of an emphasis on being a good blocking WR rather than being an explosive WR to take advantage of his hops.

The Martz offense was the reason for his higher YPC. Martz has done that for just about every receiver he has ever worked with.

Dude was a rookie and Shaun Hill was his QB. Basically negating any Martz effect.

Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Mike Furrey.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Mike Furrey.

Mike Furrey was a wide receiver at Northern Iowa. Never played a down on defense, let alone linebacker.

Switched to Safety prior to the 2005 season with the Rams due to depth issues.

Martz signed him as an UFA in 2006 when he became the Offensive Coordinator with Detroit and transitioned him back to Wide Receiver.

It should also be noted that Kitna attempted 596 passes that season.

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:
Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Which linebacker do you speak of?

Mike Furrey.

Mike Furrey was a wide receiver at Northern Iowa. Never played a down on defense, let alone linebacker.

Switched to Safety prior to the 2005 season with the Rams due to depth issues.

Martz signed him as an UFA in 2006 when he became the Offensive Coordinator with Detroit and transitioned him back to Wide Receiver.

It should also be noted that Kitna attempted 596 passes that season.

Safety, linebacker... big deal. The point still stands, Martz can make players look very good. How many guys have had career years under him? On top of that, Knox, Hester, Bennet and Aroamashadu are better than any receivers we have on our lineup, minus Crabtree.

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by Kilgore_Trout:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by oxford2517:
i quick note for u guys that dont understand football is still a business the only reason zeigler was on practice squad last yr was caz he got hurt also had he a played in 9 games instead of 8 in 2008 he wouldd have made the roster. but since he was still eligible for practice squad 49ers hid he there he's been outplaying other receivers for last 2 yrs but there salaries kept them on field so now bruce gone and they cut jones his time is here let the kid play he'll surprise all u haters .

no one is hating on him every1 thinks hes a reliable WR however he hasnt proved much at all and morgan is much better at this point and has proved much more

Morgan has proven very little on the field. Don't fool yourself. I like Josh Morgan, but he is overrated here.

The thing that scares me about Josh is he used to be a lot more explosive. Don't any of you guys remember his rookie year? His average yards/reception was 16, last year it was only 10, and this year he's struggled to get open during the preseason. Last offseason he looked stronger but probably slower, and he's probably placing too much of an emphasis on being a good blocking WR rather than being an explosive WR to take advantage of his hops.

The Martz offense was the reason for his higher YPC. Martz has done that for just about every receiver he has ever worked with.

Dude was a rookie and Shaun Hill was his QB. Basically negating any Martz effect.

Martz has made a LB a 90+ catch receiver and Jon Kitna a 4,000+ yard tosser. Learn about the NFL and then get back to us.

Well he didn't do that with Shaun Hill. Martz may have had a factor, but Hill was the QB and Sing reeled Martz in by the time Morgan was getting major playing time his rookie year. That was not a Martz offense in the 2nd half of 08. It was Martz conforming to what Singletary wanted. Learn more about the facts of the conversation and get back to me.

The difference in Morgan's YPC from 08' to 09' has more to do with the number of catches he had than who the coordinator in the year his YPC was higher. Generally speaking, the average goes down the more catches a guy has. He had more than 2.5x more catches in 09 than he did in 08 (when he only had 20). It makes little sense to put much weight on a guy's YPC (or the reason for the number, including if Mike Martz was the OC) in a season where he only had 20 catches. The devil is in the details.