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The pressure is now on Jimmy Raye

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Originally posted by foreign49er:
Originally posted by kray28:
More than that, the whole Walsh gimmick of scripting the first 15 plays had a real working motivation. It was a basically a diagnostic test he was giving the opposing defense to see how they'd react to certain looks, formations, motions etc. He'd then use that data later in the same game to attack certain weaknesses and tendencies that were identified.

Yeah...he was a different beast than the pedestrian crew we've got running things right now. Walsh was more than just a genius, he was an innovator and a legend. Right now his legacy is basically dead to the Niners, and that's just sad.

I think it's amazing that we're still comparing current coaches to him 20 years later. I'm not opposed to it, rather I think it speaks volumes to his greatness.

So much of what he did (on and off the field) made the NFL what it is today!
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by foreign49er:
Originally posted by kray28:
More than that, the whole Walsh gimmick of scripting the first 15 plays had a real working motivation. It was a basically a diagnostic test he was giving the opposing defense to see how they'd react to certain looks, formations, motions etc. He'd then use that data later in the same game to attack certain weaknesses and tendencies that were identified.

Yeah...he was a different beast than the pedestrian crew we've got running things right now. Walsh was more than just a genius, he was an innovator and a legend. Right now his legacy is basically dead to the Niners, and that's just sad.

I think it's amazing that we're still comparing current coaches to him 20 years later. I'm not opposed to it, rather I think it speaks volumes to his greatness.

So much of what he did (on and off the field) made the NFL what it is today!


every coach is compared to him.
Originally posted by NCommand:
people keep talking about "balance" which is great in an ideal world. But in the real world, game-planning and adjustments are what seperate the best OC's from the average. And THAT is what concerns me most about Raye. While I'm skeptically optimistic Raye will get it this year, many of his comments scare me esp. regarding his philosophy to keep games close and "hopefully" win them in the 4th quarter. A great OC attacks weaknesses. This is the area Raye seems to fail the most besides his vanilla play-calling and philosphy. If we're playing a team who's 32nd against the pass, I want an OC who passes all game long and exploits these waeknesses (screw balance). If we play a team who's 32nd against the run, we better be running all game long. If a defense has slow LBers and safeties, I want us exploiting that weakness by attacking with VD and crossing and post patterns. This is where Raye scares me the most. He and Singletary share a similar philosophy but "balance" should not be the objective...game planning and attacking weaknesses should be. Given we tend to start out games very poorly, are terrible on the road, are terrible after bye-weeks and were backwards last year (threw against teams we should have run against and vice versa), I have my concerns. But now that Sing/Raye have all "their" tools to implement the kind of offense they want to run, it's 100% on them now. No more throwing Alex or the o-line under the bus or Raye not knowing his personnel yet. THIS is the year we find out if Raye can game plan and attack weaknesses. Screw balance!

As usual, COMMAND, you know your s**t. Miss talking defense with you.

You say you're "skeptically optimistic" that Raye can call a decent game. I guess you could say I'm sure he can't. Raye attack a Ds weakness?? Not happening. I take that back, he can attack a Ds weakness..........if that weakness is at NT/DT/MLB.
I watched this team fall WAY behind in games while they were trying to "establish" the run last season. You're a fan, you saw it, we all saw it. Raye's playcalling cost this team several games last season. I have ZERO faith in that guy, NONE. Same goes for Singletary. His views on offense are a joke, "only three things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad"....or something to that effect. Gimme a break.
The current offense can score points. They have the weapons, they just need the brains.
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by NCommand:
people keep talking about "balance" which is great in an ideal world. But in the real world, game-planning and adjustments are what seperate the best OC's from the average. And THAT is what concerns me most about Raye. While I'm skeptically optimistic Raye will get it this year, many of his comments scare me esp. regarding his philosophy to keep games close and "hopefully" win them in the 4th quarter. A great OC attacks weaknesses. This is the area Raye seems to fail the most besides his vanilla play-calling and philosphy. If we're playing a team who's 32nd against the pass, I want an OC who passes all game long and exploits these waeknesses (screw balance). If we play a team who's 32nd against the run, we better be running all game long. If a defense has slow LBers and safeties, I want us exploiting that weakness by attacking with VD and crossing and post patterns. This is where Raye scares me the most. He and Singletary share a similar philosophy but "balance" should not be the objective...game planning and attacking weaknesses should be. Given we tend to start out games very poorly, are terrible on the road, are terrible after bye-weeks and were backwards last year (threw against teams we should have run against and vice versa), I have my concerns. But now that Sing/Raye have all "their" tools to implement the kind of offense they want to run, it's 100% on them now. No more throwing Alex or the o-line under the bus or Raye not knowing his personnel yet. THIS is the year we find out if Raye can game plan and attack weaknesses. Screw balance!

As usual, COMMAND, you know your s**t. Miss talking defense with you.

You say you're "skeptically optimistic" that Raye can call a decent game. I guess you could say I'm sure he can't. Raye attack a Ds weakness?? Not happening. I take that back, he can attack a Ds weakness..........if that weakness is at NT/DT/MLB.
I watched this team fall WAY behind in games while they were trying to "establish" the run last season. You're a fan, you saw it, we all saw it. Raye's playcalling cost this team several games last season. I have ZERO faith in that guy, NONE. Same goes for Singletary. His views on offense are a joke, "only three things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad"....or something to that effect. Gimme a break.
The current offense can score points. They have the weapons, they just need the brains.

IDK about this. Alex had his best year as a pro under who? Davs had his best year as a pro under who? Didn't Gore also put himself in the record books? Didn't Crabtree have an outstandingf year given his situtation of a late start? When you consider all of these achievements despite the lack of talent on the OL.injuries and that Smith did not know the playbook very well; Raye did OK.
Originally posted by ttime1:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by NCommand:
people keep talking about "balance" which is great in an ideal world. But in the real world, game-planning and adjustments are what seperate the best OC's from the average. And THAT is what concerns me most about Raye. While I'm skeptically optimistic Raye will get it this year, many of his comments scare me esp. regarding his philosophy to keep games close and "hopefully" win them in the 4th quarter. A great OC attacks weaknesses. This is the area Raye seems to fail the most besides his vanilla play-calling and philosphy. If we're playing a team who's 32nd against the pass, I want an OC who passes all game long and exploits these waeknesses (screw balance). If we play a team who's 32nd against the run, we better be running all game long. If a defense has slow LBers and safeties, I want us exploiting that weakness by attacking with VD and crossing and post patterns. This is where Raye scares me the most. He and Singletary share a similar philosophy but "balance" should not be the objective...game planning and attacking weaknesses should be. Given we tend to start out games very poorly, are terrible on the road, are terrible after bye-weeks and were backwards last year (threw against teams we should have run against and vice versa), I have my concerns. But now that Sing/Raye have all "their" tools to implement the kind of offense they want to run, it's 100% on them now. No more throwing Alex or the o-line under the bus or Raye not knowing his personnel yet. THIS is the year we find out if Raye can game plan and attack weaknesses. Screw balance!

As usual, COMMAND, you know your s**t. Miss talking defense with you.

You say you're "skeptically optimistic" that Raye can call a decent game. I guess you could say I'm sure he can't. Raye attack a Ds weakness?? Not happening. I take that back, he can attack a Ds weakness..........if that weakness is at NT/DT/MLB.
I watched this team fall WAY behind in games while they were trying to "establish" the run last season. You're a fan, you saw it, we all saw it. Raye's playcalling cost this team several games last season. I have ZERO faith in that guy, NONE. Same goes for Singletary. His views on offense are a joke, "only three things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad"....or something to that effect. Gimme a break.
The current offense can score points. They have the weapons, they just need the brains.

IDK about this. Alex had his best year as a pro under who? Davs had his best year as a pro under who? Didn't Gore also put himself in the record books? Didn't Crabtree have an outstandingf year given his situtation of a late start? When you consider all of these achievements despite the lack of talent on the OL.injuries and that Smith did not know the playbook very well; Raye did OK.


Um, did you watch any games? Opposing defenses knew when the Niners were gonna run the ball CONSTANTLY. Even against 8-9 man fronts, Gore was still running right into the middle of them. To make it worse, opposing defenses knew when the Niners were gonna throw the ball.
I'll break it down for you. Last season went like this...
2 RBs, 2 TEs = run up the middle
2 RBs, 1 TE = run up the middle
1 RB, 2 TEs = pass
1 RB, 1 TE = pass

I'm being a little silly, but it was damn near that easy to predict the plays.
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by ttime1:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by NCommand:
people keep talking about "balance" which is great in an ideal world. But in the real world, game-planning and adjustments are what seperate the best OC's from the average. And THAT is what concerns me most about Raye. While I'm skeptically optimistic Raye will get it this year, many of his comments scare me esp. regarding his philosophy to keep games close and "hopefully" win them in the 4th quarter. A great OC attacks weaknesses. This is the area Raye seems to fail the most besides his vanilla play-calling and philosphy. If we're playing a team who's 32nd against the pass, I want an OC who passes all game long and exploits these waeknesses (screw balance). If we play a team who's 32nd against the run, we better be running all game long. If a defense has slow LBers and safeties, I want us exploiting that weakness by attacking with VD and crossing and post patterns. This is where Raye scares me the most. He and Singletary share a similar philosophy but "balance" should not be the objective...game planning and attacking weaknesses should be. Given we tend to start out games very poorly, are terrible on the road, are terrible after bye-weeks and were backwards last year (threw against teams we should have run against and vice versa), I have my concerns. But now that Sing/Raye have all "their" tools to implement the kind of offense they want to run, it's 100% on them now. No more throwing Alex or the o-line under the bus or Raye not knowing his personnel yet. THIS is the year we find out if Raye can game plan and attack weaknesses. Screw balance!

As usual, COMMAND, you know your s**t. Miss talking defense with you.

You say you're "skeptically optimistic" that Raye can call a decent game. I guess you could say I'm sure he can't. Raye attack a Ds weakness?? Not happening. I take that back, he can attack a Ds weakness..........if that weakness is at NT/DT/MLB.
I watched this team fall WAY behind in games while they were trying to "establish" the run last season. You're a fan, you saw it, we all saw it. Raye's playcalling cost this team several games last season. I have ZERO faith in that guy, NONE. Same goes for Singletary. His views on offense are a joke, "only three things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad"....or something to that effect. Gimme a break.
The current offense can score points. They have the weapons, they just need the brains.

IDK about this. Alex had his best year as a pro under who? Davs had his best year as a pro under who? Didn't Gore also put himself in the record books? Didn't Crabtree have an outstandingf year given his situtation of a late start? When you consider all of these achievements despite the lack of talent on the OL.injuries and that Smith did not know the playbook very well; Raye did OK.


Um, did you watch any games? Opposing defenses knew when the Niners were gonna run the ball CONSTANTLY. Even against 8-9 man fronts, Gore was still running right into the middle of them. To make it worse, opposing defenses knew when the Niners were gonna throw the ball.
I'll break it down for you. Last season went like this...
2 RBs, 2 TEs = run up the middle
2 RBs, 1 TE = run up the middle
1 RB, 2 TEs = pass
1 RB, 1 TE = pass

I'm being a little silly, but it was damn near that easy to predict the plays.

Don't forget running the ball every time Josh Morgan would go into motion, then he would sit on the edge and attempt to chip block. So predictable.

The pressure is on the QB not Raye. The QB has killed one coach, GM, and four OC took off or were fired. Vikings coach Childress is a perfect example that it on the QB more than anything. Just look at Billick without Minnesota.
A QB makes an Offense.
Originally posted by Joecool:
The pressure is on the QB not Raye. The QB has killed one coach, GM, and four OC took off or were fired. Vikings coach Childress is a perfect example that it on the QB more than anything. Just look at Billick without Minnesota.
A QB makes an Offense.

I dont think calling, "run, run, screen pass, punt" is on the QB. That said, I think pressure is equally on both. And the QB didn't "kill" one coach. Nolan was a moron and an absolute failure as a head coach. Norv and McCarthy left for better pay/opportunity, Hostler...well...we has Hostler...Martz started JTO (nuff said).

I do agree with you that a QB does make an offense. Smith HAS to get it done this year.

If not, I'm hopeful for Nate.
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by NCommand:
people keep talking about "balance" which is great in an ideal world. But in the real world, game-planning and adjustments are what seperate the best OC's from the average. And THAT is what concerns me most about Raye. While I'm skeptically optimistic Raye will get it this year, many of his comments scare me esp. regarding his philosophy to keep games close and "hopefully" win them in the 4th quarter. A great OC attacks weaknesses. This is the area Raye seems to fail the most besides his vanilla play-calling and philosphy. If we're playing a team who's 32nd against the pass, I want an OC who passes all game long and exploits these waeknesses (screw balance). If we play a team who's 32nd against the run, we better be running all game long. If a defense has slow LBers and safeties, I want us exploiting that weakness by attacking with VD and crossing and post patterns. This is where Raye scares me the most. He and Singletary share a similar philosophy but "balance" should not be the objective...game planning and attacking weaknesses should be. Given we tend to start out games very poorly, are terrible on the road, are terrible after bye-weeks and were backwards last year (threw against teams we should have run against and vice versa), I have my concerns. But now that Sing/Raye have all "their" tools to implement the kind of offense they want to run, it's 100% on them now. No more throwing Alex or the o-line under the bus or Raye not knowing his personnel yet. THIS is the year we find out if Raye can game plan and attack weaknesses. Screw balance!

As usual, COMMAND, you know your s**t. Miss talking defense with you.

You say you're "skeptically optimistic" that Raye can call a decent game. I guess you could say I'm sure he can't. Raye attack a Ds weakness?? Not happening. I take that back, he can attack a Ds weakness..........if that weakness is at NT/DT/MLB.
I watched this team fall WAY behind in games while they were trying to "establish" the run last season. You're a fan, you saw it, we all saw it. Raye's playcalling cost this team several games last season. I have ZERO faith in that guy, NONE. Same goes for Singletary. His views on offense are a joke, "only three things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad"....or something to that effect. Gimme a break.
The current offense can score points. They have the weapons, they just need the brains.

Hey AK. Obviously, that was my one positive (hopeful) post about Raye and more importantly, our philosophy on offense. What exactly did Singletary pick Walsh's brain for if we do just the opposite from a "philosophy standpoint?" That philosophy had Martz leaving the team, no viable OC's wanting the job and we're stuck with ol' Raye and "hoping" he can get it this year with ALL of the weapons we have this year (and last year too).

That said, I can recognize (though, not an excuse last year IMHO) that Raye finally is more familiar with his weapons, what players can do, how they fit in and Alex and the whole offense can build off chemistry and continuity. We also added the pieces Sing/Raye wanted too.

So, while I'm skeptically optimistic, I'm not blind either. Can you teach an old dog new tricks?

Defense? Let's wait until Brooks/Franklin are back. RJF played exceptionally (I predicted this one!)...he's going to excel in the one-gap, is younger, stronger and faster then Franklin and of the same body build. He just needs experience and you can see he's growing with every snap. He was pretty stout last game. He made two back-to-back tackles behind the LOS running a RB down from behind on consecutive plays. Briggs is looking very stout and aggressive as well. If LaBoy can get it together, we'll have a great rotation and Brooks pushing to start this year. Lawson is Lawson. We all know what we have with him.
After people see teh continuity experiment fails, I hope we get an O.C in here that brings back the West Coast offense.

Originally posted by unst4bl3:
After people see teh continuity experiment fails, I hope we get an O.C in here that brings back the West Coast offense.

If that happens it could set us back another 2-3 years!
Originally posted by unst4bl3:
After people see teh continuity experiment fails, I hope we get an O.C in here that brings back the West Coast offense.

Which version?
Originally posted by foreign49er:
I disagree PTulini. I think the most amount of pressure is on Smith since he is the one who has yet to prove anything. Raye has proved he can orchestrate a winning offense and most of the pieces around Smith have also proven they can be successful NFL players(with the exception of the rookies). He's the only one who is yet to prove his worth as the starter and imo has the most to prove about this current and
future worth as a starter.

On the line only Staley has proved
his worth as a starter, whilst Baas
remains at center. Not sure that Morgan has, as yet, either. Not sure who will be playing fullback this year, if we generally feature one.

So Staley, Gore, Vernon and Crabtree have proven their worth as starters.
It would be a lot easier if we just hired an offensive minded coach
Originally posted by teeohh:
It would be a lot easier if we just hired an offensive minded coach



As much as I love Singletary, I think this is the way we should go.

[ Edited by PTulini on Aug 19, 2010 at 09:27:09 ]
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