Baas=Heitmann=Snyder=Rags...and then there's Wallace

MadDog, unquestionably you have been and remain Heitmann's strongest supporter...and you know your football. Here is my hope: with better , true starters, up and down the line, maybe we will get to see the real Heitmann, who now doesn't have to block not just for himself but also for the OGs on either side of him. I once wondered if that might be his problem, and the question remains. Archie manning was a great player who never "succeeded" because he was surrounded by ineptitude...everywhere. Hopefully that is Heitmann's situation, and this yr with staley, poti, AD, Sims, hopefully baas,and hopefully rachal, heitmann's play will be notably better. In any event, like alex, heitmann should truly show us this yr what he has...or doesn't .

Thanks to baalke, heitmann should now be in a position to show us all what kind of player you think he his...believe it or not, i AM pulling for him, because we have to have a true, professional Center on this team. My hope is that out of heit/bas/sny/wal/rag we get not just one, but two quality OLs, which has not happened previously because everyone out there was playing with starting guys who had no business on the field. 2010 could be a memorable yr for us, but we have to have our OL play become one of the best league-wide. With the amazing warhop and foerster gone, we are a better team. With solari/ray, we have the potential to excel far beyond anyone's wildest expectations. I just hope staley/AD/Poti/sims rub off on rachal, heitmann, baas. The other guys may not make the trip, which is as it should be.

If we go nuts this yr and play balls to the walls, we will have baalke to thank, with a huge assist from solari/bigRay.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
KRS, INdy and NO did make it with no 1st rd picks to SB...but they also had 2 future HOF QBs, 2 great front offices, and terrific coaching...none of which we were blessed with.

FAs? All i remember is that when Hutchinson became available in SEA, we didn't even take a sniff at him(wasn't worth the money, quoth Clown). Same went for Dielman in SD, and Faneca several yrs back. All resulted in great running games for teams that received those guys or retained them(SD). Our noteworthy FAs, LA and JJ were a)old, and b) damaged goods.

Heitmann as a starter? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have seen Heitmann's stats presented repeatedly. Stats are one thing. Performance is another. Rocky Bernard going over Heitmann's back, or Heitmann getting shoved back into the QB are unfortunate events blazed on our memories forever. Show all the stats you want, and I , as well as others are not impressed. I am willing to be impressed, however. But it is gonna have to take a totally different Heitmann than we have seen previously. Could our OL coaching have had anything to do with the incredibly poor play of our OL? Please , God, make it be so. I would dearly love to see one, hopefully even 2 of the above 5 emerge as true starters under an OL coaching staff that has 49er DNA in it.

I restate: we took a QB #1 pick in the draft, and DID NOT protect him...ever. This yr will be different. We still have to have one of the above 5 step up and not only snap the ball but also run block and especially, protect alex.

Gnnhan tells it like it is. We were spoiled by McKIttrick, but we also had a guy who could teach as well as he did...coach walsh. We've had no OL coach worth a hill of beans since then, and no HC who knew and could coach OL except the GoAT, walsh. That said, I am extremely hopeful that solari/bigRay can right this ship...and Baalke has greatly added to their chance of success.

Lumping Heitmann with Baas, Snyder and Wragge is a joke, and you know it. You will not find one person in the Niners' organization, on the field, or in the press box who would agree with your mathematical equation.

Until you can get over that one play, from three years ago, with an injured Heitmann on the field, you will never be able to make a fair analysis of his play in 2008, 2009, and status going into 2010. And that bias continues to blind you from any form of fair analysis.

The play was three years ago, and Heitmann been the best OL on the team for the last two years running. The beat writers have consistently praised his play the past couple of years, but all you see is one play from three years ago, with an injured guy on the field.

In other words....at some point you are going to have to let go that one play from 2007. There is no perfect player, no flawless performance, so to constantly beat on this Rocky Bernard play is bordering on lunacy. Eric Heitmann is a very good player, and his teammates know it. That is why they vote him the team captain every year, and that is why the beat writers continue to praise his performance year-in, year-out.

Next subject.

Heitmann has been a very good player on a very inferior OL. But it hasn't been just one play, three years ago, that causes some fans to question his ability today.

How about the last offensive play in Minnesota last season. Niners up, less than 2 minutes to go, third and short, and Heitmann--their "best" offensive lineman--fails to get a push on Dan Williams enough to gain six inches and seal the win.

That loss is as much on Heitmann as it is on Roman, IMO. If you watch the OL play as much as you say, you saw it, too, He hit Williams too high, got pushed back instead of forward, and the play was stuffed behind him.

We've seen it in other games as well. The Niners' inability to get the short yardage has haunted them for years now, and Heitmann seems to be the main culprit.

It may be the only weakness in his game, but it needs to be addressed.

Hopefully, Solari can correct whatever technical problem (if that's what it is) that needs to be addressed.

With improved talent around him, Heitmann's play may be subject to even more scrutiny. He's got to step it up. IMHO.

I want to address one of the great myths of NFL centers, and how it relates to Heitmann. I watch nearly every game, every week, and I see short yardage situations across the NFL. Heitmann is in the same camp as everyone else. Teams pack in tight (especially the Niners) and the defense follows suit. Often a center has a guy shooting through one of the gaps to cover. It is a tough assignment if both gaps are being attacked. And, week to week, I see the same problem for all NFL centers.

Even the great Nick Mangold struggles in these situations, and he is a superior player to Heitmann. So, the "he can't block well in short yardage situations" that many state about Heitmann is an NFL center problem, not a Heitmann problem. Trust me, I have been closely watching this for some time now.

Heitmann has been known as one of the stronger, more physical centers in the NFL, as noted by MM and MB on multiple occasions the past year.

And yet, in the Minnesota game, with the win on the line (literally), Heitmann, our "best lineman" in your words--who knew the snap count and had the jump on the DT--failed to hit the DT low and drive him back SIX INCHES to seal the win.

SIX INCHES.

FOR THE WIN.

Instead, he got pushed back, by a single DLman, and the play got stuffed--in the backfield. We needed strength and greatness from Heitmann. We got weakness and failure instead.

Pretty pathetic for "one of the stronger, more physical centers in the NFL."

Lemme explode one of the great myths of the NFL: beat writers are not experts in OL play. They're not the final word. They tell us what they see, and what they hear from others, but I'm still gonna make up my own mind based on what I see.

Fans who watch games and pay attention can see with their own eyes who's getting the job done and who's not. You say you watch alot of NFL games and focus on the play of the OL. You should know. Tape doesn't lie.

Based on the recent "tryouts" at Center, I'm guessing that Solari and Brown have seen the problem. How they address it, who knows. Heitmann has to step it up, though. IMHO.

I'm not ready to accept "Ericxcuses." (He was hurt, everybody in the NFL has the problem, its a really, really hard job, etc.) Time for him to step it up.

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
KRS, INdy and NO did make it with no 1st rd picks to SB...but they also had 2 future HOF QBs, 2 great front offices, and terrific coaching...none of which we were blessed with.

FAs? All i remember is that when Hutchinson became available in SEA, we didn't even take a sniff at him(wasn't worth the money, quoth Clown). Same went for Dielman in SD, and Faneca several yrs back. All resulted in great running games for teams that received those guys or retained them(SD). Our noteworthy FAs, LA and JJ were a)old, and b) damaged goods.

Heitmann as a starter? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have seen Heitmann's stats presented repeatedly. Stats are one thing. Performance is another. Rocky Bernard going over Heitmann's back, or Heitmann getting shoved back into the QB are unfortunate events blazed on our memories forever. Show all the stats you want, and I , as well as others are not impressed. I am willing to be impressed, however. But it is gonna have to take a totally different Heitmann than we have seen previously. Could our OL coaching have had anything to do with the incredibly poor play of our OL? Please , God, make it be so. I would dearly love to see one, hopefully even 2 of the above 5 emerge as true starters under an OL coaching staff that has 49er DNA in it.

I restate: we took a QB #1 pick in the draft, and DID NOT protect him...ever. This yr will be different. We still have to have one of the above 5 step up and not only snap the ball but also run block and especially, protect alex.

Gnnhan tells it like it is. We were spoiled by McKIttrick, but we also had a guy who could teach as well as he did...coach walsh. We've had no OL coach worth a hill of beans since then, and no HC who knew and could coach OL except the GoAT, walsh. That said, I am extremely hopeful that solari/bigRay can right this ship...and Baalke has greatly added to their chance of success.

Lumping Heitmann with Baas, Snyder and Wragge is a joke, and you know it. You will not find one person in the Niners' organization, on the field, or in the press box who would agree with your mathematical equation.

Until you can get over that one play, from three years ago, with an injured Heitmann on the field, you will never be able to make a fair analysis of his play in 2008, 2009, and status going into 2010. And that bias continues to blind you from any form of fair analysis.

The play was three years ago, and Heitmann been the best OL on the team for the last two years running. The beat writers have consistently praised his play the past couple of years, but all you see is one play from three years ago, with an injured guy on the field.

In other words....at some point you are going to have to let go that one play from 2007. There is no perfect player, no flawless performance, so to constantly beat on this Rocky Bernard play is bordering on lunacy. Eric Heitmann is a very good player, and his teammates know it. That is why they vote him the team captain every year, and that is why the beat writers continue to praise his performance year-in, year-out.

Next subject.

Heitmann has been a very good player on a very inferior OL. But it hasn't been just one play, three years ago, that causes some fans to question his ability today.

How about the last offensive play in Minnesota last season. Niners up, less than 2 minutes to go, third and short, and Heitmann--their "best" offensive lineman--fails to get a push on Dan Williams enough to gain six inches and seal the win.

That loss is as much on Heitmann as it is on Roman, IMO. If you watch the OL play as much as you say, you saw it, too, He hit Williams too high, got pushed back instead of forward, and the play was stuffed behind him.

We've seen it in other games as well. The Niners' inability to get the short yardage has haunted them for years now, and Heitmann seems to be the main culprit.

It may be the only weakness in his game, but it needs to be addressed.

Hopefully, Solari can correct whatever technical problem (if that's what it is) that needs to be addressed.

With improved talent around him, Heitmann's play may be subject to even more scrutiny. He's got to step it up. IMHO.

I want to address one of the great myths of NFL centers, and how it relates to Heitmann. I watch nearly every game, every week, and I see short yardage situations across the NFL. Heitmann is in the same camp as everyone else. Teams pack in tight (especially the Niners) and the defense follows suit. Often a center has a guy shooting through one of the gaps to cover. It is a tough assignment if both gaps are being attacked. And, week to week, I see the same problem for all NFL centers.

Even the great Nick Mangold struggles in these situations, and he is a superior player to Heitmann. So, the "he can't block well in short yardage situations" that many state about Heitmann is an NFL center problem, not a Heitmann problem. Trust me, I have been closely watching this for some time now.

Heitmann has been known as one of the stronger, more physical centers in the NFL, as noted by MM and MB on multiple occasions the past year.

And yet, in the Minnesota game, with the win on the line (literally), Heitmann, our "best lineman" in your words--who knew the snap count and had the jump on the DT--failed to hit the DT low and drive him back SIX INCHES to seal the win.

SIX INCHES.

FOR THE WIN.

Instead, he got pushed back, by a single DLman, and the play got stuffed--in the backfield. We needed strength and greatness from Heitmann. We got weakness and failure instead.

Pretty pathetic for "one of the stronger, more physical centers in the NFL."

Lemme explode one of the great myths of the NFL: beat writers are not experts in OL play. They're not the final word. They tell us what they see, and what they hear from others, but I'm still gonna make up my own mind based on what I see.

Fans who watch games and pay attention can see with their own eyes who's getting the job done and who's not. You say you watch alot of NFL games and focus on the play of the OL. You should know. Tape doesn't lie.

Based on the recent "tryouts" at Center, I'm guessing that Solari and Brown have seen the problem. How they address it, who knows. Heitmann has to step it up, though. IMHO.

I'm not ready to accept "Ericxcuses." (He was hurt, everybody in the NFL has the problem, its a really, really hard job, etc.) Time for him to step it up.

First, Dan Williams was drafted this year.

Second, Heitmann is not going to win every battle. To think so is lunacy. Do you expect a QB to complete 35-35 passes a game? Do you expect an OL to grade out at 100%? It doesn't happen. In fact, based on your statement, Willis needs to "step up his game" because I can assure our crowd that he did not make every tackle in every game.

Third, whichever Williams you are referring about, either one is a star. Both Williams' boys are multiple time All-Pro players, so we are not talking about some scrubby guy on the field. If he got beat one play, so be it. Nobody is referring to Heitmann as the GOAT at center, and not even as an All-Pro. However, he is a very good player.

Fourth, it is not just the local beat writers who have praised Heitmann. It has been Singletary, former OC Mike Martz, and the entire team. Heitmann is selected as team captain year after year by the players because the boys who play the game know he is a damn good football player. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother.

As for excuses, I was referring to a game in 2007, since pasodoc is so fixated on that play that he can barely function in 2010, three years later. In 2007, L. Tomlinson was the best back in the NFL, and Patrick Kearney the second in the NFL in sacks. Time to move on.

Finally, there is no "tryout" at center. The only tryout is to see who will fill out a roster spot behind Heitmann at center, whether it be Wragge, Baas or Wallace. Heitmann is the unquestioned leader at center and the OL. This is not even debatable.

Cheers.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
MadDog, unquestionably you have been and remain Heitmann's strongest supporter...and you know your football. Here is my hope: with better , true starters, up and down the line, maybe we will get to see the real Heitmann, who now doesn't have to block not just for himself but also for the OGs on either side of him. I once wondered if that might be his problem, and the question remains. Archie manning was a great player who never "succeeded" because he was surrounded by ineptitude...everywhere. Hopefully that is Heitmann's situation, and this yr with staley, poti, AD, Sims, hopefully baas,and hopefully rachal, heitmann's play will be notably better. In any event, like alex, heitmann should truly show us this yr what he has...or doesn't .

Thanks to baalke, heitmann should now be in a position to show us all what kind of player you think he his...believe it or not, i AM pulling for him, because we have to have a true, professional Center on this team. My hope is that out of heit/bas/sny/wal/rag we get not just one, but two quality OLs, which has not happened previously because everyone out there was playing with starting guys who had no business on the field. 2010 could be a memorable yr for us, but we have to have our OL play become one of the best league-wide. With the amazing warhop and foerster gone, we are a better team. With solari/ray, we have the potential to excel far beyond anyone's wildest expectations. I just hope staley/AD/Poti/sims rub off on rachal, heitmann, baas. The other guys may not make the trip, which is as it should be.

If we go nuts this yr and play balls to the walls, we will have baalke to thank, with a huge assist from solari/bigRay.

The only reason I respond to Heitmann threads is because the criticism leveled against him has been largely unfair over the past few years. I am not really a supporter, nor detractor. I simply analyze his play. If someone dogged one of our better players, like Andy Lee, I'd respond the same.

I began the "Eric Heitmann is a Good Football Player" years ago because I couldn't believe how ridiculous the comments were toward his play on the board. So, I began to track his play, down by down, just to see if I was wrong. What I saw was someone who was pretty damn good, and yet, people continued to criticize his play...until the coaches, players, scouts, and writers began to write favorable things. The criticism died. Then, after a few months pass, the same crowd began to re-emerge with the same ridiculous arguments that were debunked a few months ago by these same writers. It is like amnesia revisited, over and over again.

The bottom line is that people have a bias against him. I guess it will take a Pro-Bowl invitation to exercise these demons.

We cut this bum yet??

Do you do childrens' parties?

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
KRS, INdy and NO did make it with no 1st rd picks to SB...but they also had 2 future HOF QBs, 2 great front offices, and terrific coaching...none of which we were blessed with.

FAs? All i remember is that when Hutchinson became available in SEA, we didn't even take a sniff at him(wasn't worth the money, quoth Clown). Same went for Dielman in SD, and Faneca several yrs back. All resulted in great running games for teams that received those guys or retained them(SD). Our noteworthy FAs, LA and JJ were a)old, and b) damaged goods.

Heitmann as a starter? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have seen Heitmann's stats presented repeatedly. Stats are one thing. Performance is another. Rocky Bernard going over Heitmann's back, or Heitmann getting shoved back into the QB are unfortunate events blazed on our memories forever. Show all the stats you want, and I , as well as others are not impressed. I am willing to be impressed, however. But it is gonna have to take a totally different Heitmann than we have seen previously. Could our OL coaching have had anything to do with the incredibly poor play of our OL? Please , God, make it be so. I would dearly love to see one, hopefully even 2 of the above 5 emerge as true starters under an OL coaching staff that has 49er DNA in it.

I restate: we took a QB #1 pick in the draft, and DID NOT protect him...ever. This yr will be different. We still have to have one of the above 5 step up and not only snap the ball but also run block and especially, protect alex.

Gnnhan tells it like it is. We were spoiled by McKIttrick, but we also had a guy who could teach as well as he did...coach walsh. We've had no OL coach worth a hill of beans since then, and no HC who knew and could coach OL except the GoAT, walsh. That said, I am extremely hopeful that solari/bigRay can right this ship...and Baalke has greatly added to their chance of success.

Lumping Heitmann with Baas, Snyder and Wragge is a joke, and you know it. You will not find one person in the Niners' organization, on the field, or in the press box who would agree with your mathematical equation.

Until you can get over that one play, from three years ago, with an injured Heitmann on the field, you will never be able to make a fair analysis of his play in 2008, 2009, and status going into 2010. And that bias continues to blind you from any form of fair analysis.

The play was three years ago, and Heitmann been the best OL on the team for the last two years running. The beat writers have consistently praised his play the past couple of years, but all you see is one play from three years ago, with an injured guy on the field.

In other words....at some point you are going to have to let go that one play from 2007. There is no perfect player, no flawless performance, so to constantly beat on this Rocky Bernard play is bordering on lunacy. Eric Heitmann is a very good player, and his teammates know it. That is why they vote him the team captain every year, and that is why the beat writers continue to praise his performance year-in, year-out.

Next subject.

Heitmann has been a very good player on a very inferior OL. But it hasn't been just one play, three years ago, that causes some fans to question his ability today.

How about the last offensive play in Minnesota last season. Niners up, less than 2 minutes to go, third and short, and Heitmann--their "best" offensive lineman--fails to get a push on Dan Williams enough to gain six inches and seal the win.

That loss is as much on Heitmann as it is on Roman, IMO. If you watch the OL play as much as you say, you saw it, too, He hit Williams too high, got pushed back instead of forward, and the play was stuffed behind him.

We've seen it in other games as well. The Niners' inability to get the short yardage has haunted them for years now, and Heitmann seems to be the main culprit.

It may be the only weakness in his game, but it needs to be addressed.

Hopefully, Solari can correct whatever technical problem (if that's what it is) that needs to be addressed.

With improved talent around him, Heitmann's play may be subject to even more scrutiny. He's got to step it up. IMHO.

I want to address one of the great myths of NFL centers, and how it relates to Heitmann. I watch nearly every game, every week, and I see short yardage situations across the NFL. Heitmann is in the same camp as everyone else. Teams pack in tight (especially the Niners) and the defense follows suit. Often a center has a guy shooting through one of the gaps to cover. It is a tough assignment if both gaps are being attacked. And, week to week, I see the same problem for all NFL centers.

Even the great Nick Mangold struggles in these situations, and he is a superior player to Heitmann. So, the "he can't block well in short yardage situations" that many state about Heitmann is an NFL center problem, not a Heitmann problem. Trust me, I have been closely watching this for some time now.

Heitmann has been known as one of the stronger, more physical centers in the NFL, as noted by MM and MB on multiple occasions the past year.

And yet, in the Minnesota game, with the win on the line (literally), Heitmann, our "best lineman" in your words--who knew the snap count and had the jump on the DT--failed to hit the DT low and drive him back SIX INCHES to seal the win.

SIX INCHES.

FOR THE WIN.

Instead, he got pushed back, by a single DLman, and the play got stuffed--in the backfield. We needed strength and greatness from Heitmann. We got weakness and failure instead.

Pretty pathetic for "one of the stronger, more physical centers in the NFL."

Lemme explode one of the great myths of the NFL: beat writers are not experts in OL play. They're not the final word. They tell us what they see, and what they hear from others, but I'm still gonna make up my own mind based on what I see.

Fans who watch games and pay attention can see with their own eyes who's getting the job done and who's not. You say you watch alot of NFL games and focus on the play of the OL. You should know. Tape doesn't lie.

Based on the recent "tryouts" at Center, I'm guessing that Solari and Brown have seen the problem. How they address it, who knows. Heitmann has to step it up, though. IMHO.

I'm not ready to accept "Ericxcuses." (He was hurt, everybody in the NFL has the problem, its a really, really hard job, etc.) Time for him to step it up.

First, Dan Williams was drafted this year.

Second, Heitmann is not going to win every battle. To think so is lunacy. Do you expect a QB to complete 35-35 passes a game? Do you expect an OL to grade out at 100%? It doesn't happen. In fact, based on your statement, Willis needs to "step up his game" because I can assure our crowd that he did not make every tackle in every game.

Third, whichever Williams you are referring about, either one is a star. Both Williams' boys are multiple time All-Pro players, so we are not talking about some scrubby guy on the field. If he got beat one play, so be it. Nobody is referring to Heitmann as the GOAT at center, and not even as an All-Pro. However, he is a very good player.

Fourth, it is not just the local beat writers who have praised Heitmann. It has been Singletary, former OC Mike Martz, and the entire team. Heitmann is selected as team captain year after year by the players because the boys who play the game know he is a damn good football player. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother.

As for excuses, I was referring to a game in 2007, since pasodoc is so fixated on that play that he can barely function in 2010, three years later. In 2007, L. Tomlinson was the best back in the NFL, and Patrick Kearney the second in the NFL in sacks. Time to move on.

Finally, there is no "tryout" at center. The only tryout is to see who will fill out a roster spot behind Heitmann at center, whether it be Wragge, Baas or Wallace. Heitmann is the unquestioned leader at center and the OL. This is not even debatable.

Cheers.

I believe it was Pat Williams on the play I was talking about.

"Heitmann is not going to win every battle" sounds alot like an excuse. Sorry.

No one wins everytime, but frankly, we need guys who are able and willing to win the one-on-one battles when its important to do so. No QB completes every pass, but the great ones complete them when they need to, when its important. (See Montana, Joe.) Same with LBs, WRs, etc.

We want winners--guys who will dig down and win those battles when its important to do so. Unfortunately, Heitmann seems to consistently lose those battles.

The fact that he lost such a battle against a pro bowler is, again, just an excuse. Heitmann was snapping the ball, and therefore knew when to initiate contact. He had the jump on the DT. But he let's the guy stand him up and push him backwards? Would that have happened to a guy like Newberry? Shouldn't Heitmann be trying to make the pro bowl himself?

I do recall Martz praising Heitmann. Frankly, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Martz liked JTO alot, too. Martz would say anything if it would help him keep his job.

You say there is no tryout at Center. All reports indicate that there have been tryouts at center at the last OTAs, which you also acknowledge. You can't have it both ways. We don't know if the tryouts are for backup, or for part time replacement of Heitmann (i.e., maybe on short yardage situations), or for his starter's position. Time will tell.

Heitmann has been the captain of a very poor OL, and arguably its best player. You see that as a plus. If he's satisfied with that, and if that's all he's got, then I see it as a minus.

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I believe it was Pat Williams on the play I was talking about.

"Heitmann is not going to win every battle" sounds alot like an excuse. Sorry.

No one wins everytime, but frankly, we need guys who are able and willing to win the one-on-one battles when its important to do so. No QB completes every pass, but the great ones complete them when they need to, when its important. (See Montana, Joe.) Same with LBs, WRs, etc.

Minnesota has been a top 3 run defense for the last 4 straight years (teams are averaging less than 80 yards a game against them) mainly due to the Williams boys up front making everyone else on that defenses job that much easier on running downs. They are the best run stuffing combo in the NFL by far.

Go poll every center in this league and they will tell you the same thing, whether it's the 1st quarter or the 4th, trying to get a push from your center against those 2 on a short yardage run is not going to be an easy task. If that is the play you are going to call you are going to need a good lead block to help you and not just rely on the interior lineman to open a hole or push back one of those 2 six inches. The problem their was the playcall and not the execution by Heitmann.

That wasn't an excuse and you know it, you are just unwilling to admit that it is a terrible example to be using.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I believe it was Pat Williams on the play I was talking about.

"Heitmann is not going to win every battle" sounds alot like an excuse. Sorry.

No one wins everytime, but frankly, we need guys who are able and willing to win the one-on-one battles when its important to do so. No QB completes every pass, but the great ones complete them when they need to, when its important. (See Montana, Joe.) Same with LBs, WRs, etc.

Minnesota has been a top 3 run defense for the last 4 straight years (teams are averaging less than 80 yards a game against them) mainly due to the Williams boys up front making everyone else on that defenses job that much easier on running downs. They are the best run stuffing combo in the NFL by far.

Go poll every center in this league and they will tell you the same thing, whether it's the 1st quarter or the 4th, trying to get a push from your center against those 2 on a short yardage run is not going to be an easy task. If that is the play you are going to call you are going to need a good lead block to help you and not just rely on the interior lineman to open a hole or push back one of those 2 six inches. The problem their was the playcall and not the execution by Heitmann.

That wasn't an excuse and you know it, you are just unwilling to admit that it is a terrible example to be using.

I know what OND is talking about. Many fans wanted to blame Baas for pulling and tripping over his own linemen. But often times it was Heitmann getting blown back into Baas. There was a guy who used to post snap-by-snap analysis of players last year in various games. I believe the final assessment was that Heitmann is OK. But to your point, the philosophy and play-calling REALLY hurt the o-line more then anything last year, putting up 5 guys against 8 defenders who were run blitzing up the gut...it naturally, made us look like fools offensively and lead to many injuries. Even Staley looked like hell last year AND he too got injured. I do agree we need some youth and muscle at the center position esp. for the type of philosophy Singl/Raye employ. At this stage, we are not rebuilding. We should be looking to upgrade, yes, even over old wiley vets.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I believe it was Pat Williams on the play I was talking about.

"Heitmann is not going to win every battle" sounds alot like an excuse. Sorry.

No one wins everytime, but frankly, we need guys who are able and willing to win the one-on-one battles when its important to do so. No QB completes every pass, but the great ones complete them when they need to, when its important. (See Montana, Joe.) Same with LBs, WRs, etc.

Minnesota has been a top 3 run defense for the last 4 straight years (teams are averaging less than 80 yards a game against them) mainly due to the Williams boys up front making everyone else on that defenses job that much easier on running downs. They are the best run stuffing combo in the NFL by far.

Go poll every center in this league and they will tell you the same thing, whether it's the 1st quarter or the 4th, trying to get a push from your center against those 2 on a short yardage run is not going to be an easy task. If that is the play you are going to call you are going to need a good lead block to help you and not just rely on the interior lineman to open a hole or push back one of those 2 six inches. The problem their was the playcall and not the execution by Heitmann.

That wasn't an excuse and you know it, you are just unwilling to admit that it is a terrible example to be using.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Who said its supposed to be easy? Minnesota has/had a great run defense, and the Williams boys are at least part of the reason. We were without Gore. No excuses. We had a chance to win that game.

We were ahead with less than two minutes to go, needed a first down to seal the win. Third and less than a yard. We call a dive play behind arguably our "best" OL, and he get's pushed backwards instead of gaining the six inches needed.

One on one, Heitmann vs. Pat Williams, for six inches and a first down/win. Heitmann snaps the ball, hits Williams too high, and gets shoved backwards. That's an example of exactly the kind of football Singletary apparently wants to be able to play--in reverse.

Heitmann should have won that battle, hands down. I don't care if Williams was All Pro, All NFL, All NBA, All World, whatever. He didn't know the snap count, and he didn't know the play call, and he didn't snap the ball, so he didn't have the advantage--until Heitmann hit him too high and lost his leverage. That's poor execution, not poor play calling.

You think they should have run off tackle, maybe behind Snyder instead? Or take an even bigger chance and thrown a pass--when they only needed six inches? Excuses, excuses. Tsk.

In one word? "Cruncheweesy"

Heitmann is such a big loser that the Niners.....don't address this issue in the draft....and the players vote him team captain every year...and the sportswriters state he is the best OL on this team...and Mike Martz says he was the best center he ever worked with...and, you fill in the blank with the other 100 things that state how bad he is....

At what point do you concede that your bias is slightly in the way?

P.S. Nick Mangold grades out at 100% every game and Jerermy Newberry never was beat. Never.

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I believe it was Pat Williams on the play I was talking about.

"Heitmann is not going to win every battle" sounds alot like an excuse. Sorry.

No one wins everytime, but frankly, we need guys who are able and willing to win the one-on-one battles when its important to do so. No QB completes every pass, but the great ones complete them when they need to, when its important. (See Montana, Joe.) Same with LBs, WRs, etc.

Minnesota has been a top 3 run defense for the last 4 straight years (teams are averaging less than 80 yards a game against them) mainly due to the Williams boys up front making everyone else on that defenses job that much easier on running downs. They are the best run stuffing combo in the NFL by far.

Go poll every center in this league and they will tell you the same thing, whether it's the 1st quarter or the 4th, trying to get a push from your center against those 2 on a short yardage run is not going to be an easy task. If that is the play you are going to call you are going to need a good lead block to help you and not just rely on the interior lineman to open a hole or push back one of those 2 six inches. The problem their was the playcall and not the execution by Heitmann.

That wasn't an excuse and you know it, you are just unwilling to admit that it is a terrible example to be using.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Who said its supposed to be easy? Minnesota has/had a great run defense, and the Williams boys are at least part of the reason. We were without Gore. No excuses. We had a chance to win that game.

We were ahead with less than two minutes to go, needed a first down to seal the win. Third and less than a yard. We call a dive play behind arguably our "best" OL, and he get's pushed backwards instead of gaining the six inches needed.

One on one, Heitmann vs. Pat Williams, for six inches and a first down/win. Heitmann snaps the ball, hits Williams too high, and gets shoved backwards. That's an example of exactly the kind of football Singletary apparently wants to be able to play--in reverse.

Heitmann should have won that battle, hands down. I don't care if Williams was All Pro, All NFL, All NBA, All World, whatever. He didn't know the snap count, and he didn't know the play call, and he didn't snap the ball, so he didn't have the advantage--until Heitmann hit him too high and lost his leverage. That's poor execution, not poor play calling.

You think they should have run off tackle, maybe behind Snyder instead? Or take an even bigger chance and thrown a pass--when they only needed six inches? Excuses, excuses. Tsk.

Best OL or not you have to play the percentages on that play....and when you are near the bottom of the league running the football with your #1 RB out of the game going up against arguably the best run defense in the league you don't try to beat them at their own game. This is elementary stuff, you have failed all day long with running the f**king ball, so when the game is on the line why in blue hell are you going to try and pound the rock once more ? Yes you dial up a pass or PA pass (out of the Big I).

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Heitmann is such a big loser that the Niners.....don't address this issue in the draft....and the players vote him team captain every year...and the sportswriters state he is the best OL on this team...and Mike Martz says he was the best center he ever worked with...and, you fill in the blank with the other 100 things that state how bad he is....

At what point do you concede that your bias is slightly in the way?

P.S. Nick Mangold grades out at 100% every game and Jerermy Newberry never was beat. Never.

What bias would that be? Just because I disagree with you, have a different point of view, I must be biased? As Ochocinco would say: "Child, please."

You didn't like Taylor Mays as a safety--that make you biased against him?

Who sez I don't like Heitmann, or that I'm not rooting for him? Have I called him a "big loser?" No.

He's the most experienced Center on the team, and I have, in the past, defended him for his play, specifically against Seattle at their place two years ago when it was so loud the team used a silent count--i.e., snap the ball when he lifted his head--and Heitmann took a terrible beating, but kept on playing.

But I'm not blind, either.

Nor do I have some kind of manlove for Heitmann that makes me excuse every failure to execute properly that he may make. When will you concede that YOUR bias is getting in the way, and causing you to look for excuses for a glaring weakness in his game?

Just because the Niners had bigger needs (RT and LG) that they didn't take a center in the draft, doesn't mean they may not have looked at one, or might not have taken Pouncey if he'd fallen to them. We don't know. Likewise, just because he's popular with his teammates doesn't make him an All Pro.

And, again, your credibility suffers when you rely on anything Martz said. JTO in the HOF yet?

PS: Your hyperbole is misplaced and irrelevant.

Everyone makes mistakes. The question is, whether Heitmann performs at a high level when its important to do so. Given his struggles in short yardage situations, I'd have to say "No."

The first step in correcting a weakness is recognizing that its there. All I'm saying is that I hope he recognizes the problem and does something to address and correct it.

The coaches may already be doing something about it, hence the tryouts at center during the recent OTAs.

And just who is Jerermy Newberry?

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I believe it was Pat Williams on the play I was talking about.

"Heitmann is not going to win every battle" sounds alot like an excuse. Sorry.

No one wins everytime, but frankly, we need guys who are able and willing to win the one-on-one battles when its important to do so. No QB completes every pass, but the great ones complete them when they need to, when its important. (See Montana, Joe.) Same with LBs, WRs, etc.

Minnesota has been a top 3 run defense for the last 4 straight years (teams are averaging less than 80 yards a game against them) mainly due to the Williams boys up front making everyone else on that defenses job that much easier on running downs. They are the best run stuffing combo in the NFL by far.

Go poll every center in this league and they will tell you the same thing, whether it's the 1st quarter or the 4th, trying to get a push from your center against those 2 on a short yardage run is not going to be an easy task. If that is the play you are going to call you are going to need a good lead block to help you and not just rely on the interior lineman to open a hole or push back one of those 2 six inches. The problem their was the playcall and not the execution by Heitmann.

That wasn't an excuse and you know it, you are just unwilling to admit that it is a terrible example to be using.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Who said its supposed to be easy? Minnesota has/had a great run defense, and the Williams boys are at least part of the reason. We were without Gore. No excuses. We had a chance to win that game.

We were ahead with less than two minutes to go, needed a first down to seal the win. Third and less than a yard. We call a dive play behind arguably our "best" OL, and he get's pushed backwards instead of gaining the six inches needed.

One on one, Heitmann vs. Pat Williams, for six inches and a first down/win. Heitmann snaps the ball, hits Williams too high, and gets shoved backwards. That's an example of exactly the kind of football Singletary apparently wants to be able to play--in reverse.

Heitmann should have won that battle, hands down. I don't care if Williams was All Pro, All NFL, All NBA, All World, whatever. He didn't know the snap count, and he didn't know the play call, and he didn't snap the ball, so he didn't have the advantage--until Heitmann hit him too high and lost his leverage. That's poor execution, not poor play calling.

You think they should have run off tackle, maybe behind Snyder instead? Or take an even bigger chance and thrown a pass--when they only needed six inches? Excuses, excuses. Tsk.

Best OL or not you have to play the percentages on that play....and when you are near the bottom of the league running the football with your #1 RB out of the game going up against arguably the best run defense in the league you don't try to beat them at their own game. This is elementary stuff, you have failed all day long with running the f**king ball, so when the game is on the line why in blue hell are you going to try and pound the rock once more ? Yes you dial up a pass or PA pass (out of the Big I).

You should watch the game again. There were a couple of series where the Niners were able to run the ball. Up to the last two minutes, the Niners were beating Minnesota, on offense and on defense.

Last two minutes and a couple guys came up short. Everyone saw Roman's failure. Heitmann's was just as bad, about a minute earlier on the clock.

Don't take my word for it. Watch the game again.