Baas=Heitmann=Snyder=Rags...and then there's Wallace

well wragge and wallace will never start on this team so there not the problem. dont get why u brought them up in title


ps except by inj

actually i dont get this at all

"Of the 5 guys currently on roster..."baas will lose job and snyder will too the only player u mentioned with any talent was heitmann.... thats not the oline on the 9ners roster so please explain the thread about our off line.

last year it was staley, baas, hietmann, rachalle, and snyder or sims. whatever i dont get the thread title

quite the rant

this thread is about 10 different topics that all are being rehashed....sunday funday

Wallace was mentioned because of a different issue. The post was already way "over-long", so i just left wallace til later. The point: in 2010, if you are going to draft an OL, you better be ready to play him within the first yr, and definitely within yr 2. Wallace has not seen action yet, to my knowledge. You cannot do that in today's nfl, unlike in the 90's when we got guys, coached them up , and then let them start 5 yrs later(Steve young, eg). Now, an OL pick better be pretty close to ready when you draft him, or you wasted your pick. There is no such thing as a project today with salary cap. You have to draft well or you screw yourself. Either there is something we don't know about wallace(injured, maybe?) or the pick was a total waste.

Not getting him PT last yr near end of season when we obviously weren't going anywhere, was IMO, a booboo. He should have gotten on the field to see if there was something there the coaches didn't see. In college the guy was Big 12 all american, an same for scholarship. If we are taking projects, it shouldn't be late in the draft, when a guy is not going to get a shot, a la wallace. We still, all of us, have absolutely zero idea what the guy can do. On a losing crapola team with a 7 yr run of futility, that seems not odd, but really bad coaching decision. If he is that horrid, then he should have been cut, traded, whatever.

Again, this is just another way in which the OL situation has been completely ignored...until baalke took over.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Wallace was mentioned because of a different issue. The post was already way "over-long", so i just left wallace til later. The point: in 2010, if you are going to draft an OL, you better be ready to play him within the first yr, and definitely within yr 2. Wallace has not seen action yet, to my knowledge. You cannot do that in today's nfl, unlike in the 90's when we got guys, coached them up , and then let them start 5 yrs later(Steve young, eg). Now, an OL pick better be pretty close to ready when you draft him, or you wasted your pick. There is no such thing as a project today with salary cap. You have to draft well or you screw yourself. Either there is something we don't know about wallace(injured, maybe?) or the pick was a total waste.

Not getting him PT last yr near end of season when we obviously weren't going anywhere, was IMO, a booboo. He should have gotten on the field to see if there was something there the coaches didn't see. In college the guy was Big 12 all american, an same for scholarship. If we are taking projects, it shouldn't be late in the draft, when a guy is not going to get a shot, a la wallace. We still, all of us, have absolutely zero idea what the guy can do. On a losing crapola team with a 7 yr run of futility, that seems not odd, but really bad coaching decision. If he is that horrid, then he should have been cut, traded, whatever.

Again, this is just another way in which the OL situation has been completely ignored...until baalke took over.

Wallace did see time late last season

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
Wow... That was a long walk for a short drink.

You could sum it up as the following.

Bob McKittrick took low draft picks, and UDFA's and made them work. Why, he was a consistent coach and they did zone blocking similar to what Denver does now.

The new OL coach's suck, and switched away from zone blocking, making it easier for defenders to rush the passer. Zone blocking causes DT and DE to hesitate, man on man does not.

Simple, inferior coaching, and not as good of blocking scheme.

You forgot to mention the predecessor to Foerster, the great George Warhop who was really a POS. The odds on getting two POS OL coaches during this reign is virtually incalculable. He coached the OL from 2005-2008. During his pathetic and putrid coaching, the Niners finished 32nd, 26th, 32nd and 32nd in total offense. To add to his sterling record, he coached the OL in Cleveland last year and guess what, they finished 32nd in total offense, Surprise! Of course we picked him up after he was summarily fired by the Cowgirls. How do incompetents like this continue to be recycled. You also did not mention that the great Howard Mudd has been in place in Indy for years, so Polian could wait on his OL selections because Mudd would always coach them up like McKittrick used to.

Originally posted by GEEK:
Anyone can b***h about previous mistakes by the prior regimes, but the fact is that Singletary and Baalke are doing everything to address the offensive lines.

#1: Hire Mike Solari and let Foerster leave for the Skins.
- This is the most important and biggest offseason acquisition for the team. Solari is a top 5 OL coach in this league, and he understands Raye's playbook.

#2: Hire a mentor/ast. coach in Ray Brown.
- Brown is going to be HUGE help as a role model and technician for guys like Rachal, Iupati, and Davis to improve their games. One reason why Singletary is an effective coach is because he has actual football experience (HOFer anyone?) with a Super Bowl ring. Brown could be a HOF, but he has many years of actual experience and high level of productivity.

#3: Address the RT position with Davis.
- McCloughan/Nolan never really addressed the offensive line - instead taking a reactive approach by trying a few different options already on the team or scraps in free agency. Finally the new administration hit the nail on the head on addressing the position with Davis.

#4: Address the LG positon with Iupati.
- Baas seems to be a very good backup, but not an everyday starter. If he can improve his skills at center, the Iupati pick not only upgrades the starting LG position, but improves the depth by allocating Baas to the bench.

The fact that Wragge and Snyder are the storylines of "on the bubble" players to make the roster is significant improvement. A year before, Wragge was the starting guard and Snyder was a starting tackle lol.

Well said, G, well said.

I agree with your #1 point and feel it to be a true lucky blessing. Just when we lose our OL to Washington, we get Singletary's #1 choice at OL coach, Solari. How lucky is that?

Then the addition of Brown only increases the team's resources at OL coach. He can provide a different yet parallel coaching philosophy to Solari's that will only add to the rook's experience and tutelage. Both will get Iupati and Davis on track leaving Baas to compete at C.

I remember the uproar about Wallace when he was chosen. They were right and I can see his inability to handle the NFL and play other position pushing him out the door. Wallace and Baas can play C and provide some consistency and depth at G and C. Wallace becomes expendable.

Staley-Iupati-Heitmann-Rachal-Davis
Sims-Wragge-Baas-Snyder-Boone

Now that is a great offensive line with some depth!

Next year, I can see us going after a true C like Pouncey. CB, NT and DE/OLB all become viable options in the category of need.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
KRS, INdy and NO did make it with no 1st rd picks to SB...but they also had 2 future HOF QBs, 2 great front offices, and terrific coaching...none of which we were blessed with.

FAs? All i remember is that when Hutchinson became available in SEA, we didn't even take a sniff at him(wasn't worth the money, quoth Clown). Same went for Dielman in SD, and Faneca several yrs back. All resulted in great running games for teams that received those guys or retained them(SD). Our noteworthy FAs, LA and JJ were a)old, and b) damaged goods.

Heitmann as a starter? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have seen Heitmann's stats presented repeatedly. Stats are one thing. Performance is another. Rocky Bernard going over Heitmann's back, or Heitmann getting shoved back into the QB are unfortunate events blazed on our memories forever. Show all the stats you want, and I , as well as others are not impressed. I am willing to be impressed, however. But it is gonna have to take a totally different Heitmann than we have seen previously. Could our OL coaching have had anything to do with the incredibly poor play of our OL? Please , God, make it be so. I would dearly love to see one, hopefully even 2 of the above 5 emerge as true starters under an OL coaching staff that has 49er DNA in it.

I restate: we took a QB #1 pick in the draft, and DID NOT protect him...ever. This yr will be different. We still have to have one of the above 5 step up and not only snap the ball but also run block and especially, protect alex.

Gnnhan tells it like it is. We were spoiled by McKIttrick, but we also had a guy who could teach as well as he did...coach walsh. We've had no OL coach worth a hill of beans since then, and no HC who knew and could coach OL except the GoAT, walsh. That said, I am extremely hopeful that solari/bigRay can right this ship...and Baalke has greatly added to their chance of success.

Lumping Heitmann with Baas, Snyder and Wragge is a joke, and you know it. You will not find one person in the Niners' organization, on the field, or in the press box who would agree with your mathematical equation.

Until you can get over that one play, from three years ago, with an injured Heitmann on the field, you will never be able to make a fair analysis of his play in 2008, 2009, and status going into 2010. And that bias continues to blind you from any form of fair analysis.

The play was three years ago, and Heitmann been the best OL on the team for the last two years running. The beat writers have consistently praised his play the past couple of years, but all you see is one play from three years ago, with an injured guy on the field.

In other words....at some point you are going to have to let go that one play from 2007. There is no perfect player, no flawless performance, so to constantly beat on this Rocky Bernard play is bordering on lunacy. Eric Heitmann is a very good player, and his teammates know it. That is why they vote him the team captain every year, and that is why the beat writers continue to praise his performance year-in, year-out.

Next subject.

Originally posted by fan49:
well wragge and wallace will never start on this team so there not the problem. dont get why u brought them up in title


ps except by inj

Because this is another veiled shot at Heitmann, which is his ugly, broken, and biased pattern since 2007, and which has been soundly debunked by the beat writers, scouts, coaches, and others the past two years.

And, yet, they keep coming back for more rounds of flagellations.

P.S. Final note: I hardly know why I am even posting a response to even defend Heitmann's play. I mean, here is a guy labeled the best OL on the team, and some people are fixated on this being the biggest player personnel issue to address. Heitmann is Issue#3478 to deal with on the squad, but for some, he is the true cancer. For them, the Niners are only one step away from glory: Remove their best OL, and just plug anyone in at center....because of one play..... in 2007.

Cheers.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
KRS, INdy and NO did make it with no 1st rd picks to SB...but they also had 2 future HOF QBs, 2 great front offices, and terrific coaching...none of which we were blessed with.

FAs? All i remember is that when Hutchinson became available in SEA, we didn't even take a sniff at him(wasn't worth the money, quoth Clown). Same went for Dielman in SD, and Faneca several yrs back. All resulted in great running games for teams that received those guys or retained them(SD). Our noteworthy FAs, LA and JJ were a)old, and b) damaged goods.

Heitmann as a starter? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have seen Heitmann's stats presented repeatedly. Stats are one thing. Performance is another. Rocky Bernard going over Heitmann's back, or Heitmann getting shoved back into the QB are unfortunate events blazed on our memories forever. Show all the stats you want, and I , as well as others are not impressed. I am willing to be impressed, however. But it is gonna have to take a totally different Heitmann than we have seen previously. Could our OL coaching have had anything to do with the incredibly poor play of our OL? Please , God, make it be so. I would dearly love to see one, hopefully even 2 of the above 5 emerge as true starters under an OL coaching staff that has 49er DNA in it.

I restate: we took a QB #1 pick in the draft, and DID NOT protect him...ever. This yr will be different. We still have to have one of the above 5 step up and not only snap the ball but also run block and especially, protect alex.

Gnnhan tells it like it is. We were spoiled by McKIttrick, but we also had a guy who could teach as well as he did...coach walsh. We've had no OL coach worth a hill of beans since then, and no HC who knew and could coach OL except the GoAT, walsh. That said, I am extremely hopeful that solari/bigRay can right this ship...and Baalke has greatly added to their chance of success.

Lumping Heitmann with Baas, Snyder and Wragge is a joke, and you know it. You will not find one person in the Niners' organization, on the field, or in the press box who would agree with your mathematical equation.

Until you can get over that one play, from three years ago, with an injured Heitmann on the field, you will never be able to make a fair analysis of his play in 2008, 2009, and status going into 2010. And that bias continues to blind you from any form of fair analysis.

The play was three years ago, and Heitmann been the best OL on the team for the last two years running. The beat writers have consistently praised his play the past couple of years, but all you see is one play from three years ago, with an injured guy on the field.

In other words....at some point you are going to have to let go that one play from 2007. There is no perfect player, no flawless performance, so to constantly beat on this Rocky Bernard play is bordering on lunacy. Eric Heitmann is a very good player, and his teammates know it. That is why they vote him the team captain every year, and that is why the beat writers continue to praise his performance year-in, year-out.

Next subject.

Heitmann has been a very good player on a very inferior OL. But it hasn't been just one play, three years ago, that causes some fans to question his ability today.

How about the last offensive play in Minnesota last season. Niners up, less than 2 minutes to go, third and short, and Heitmann--their "best" offensive lineman--fails to get a push on Dan Williams enough to gain six inches and seal the win.

That loss is as much on Heitmann as it is on Roman, IMO. If you watch the OL play as much as you say, you saw it, too, He hit Williams too high, got pushed back instead of forward, and the play was stuffed behind him.

We've seen it in other games as well. The Niners' inability to get the short yardage has haunted them for years now, and Heitmann seems to be the main culprit.

It may be the only weakness in his game, but it needs to be addressed.

Hopefully, Solari can correct whatever technical problem (if that's what it is) that needs to be addressed.

With improved talent around him, Heitmann's play may be subject to even more scrutiny. He's got to step it up. IMHO.

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
KRS, INdy and NO did make it with no 1st rd picks to SB...but they also had 2 future HOF QBs, 2 great front offices, and terrific coaching...none of which we were blessed with.

FAs? All i remember is that when Hutchinson became available in SEA, we didn't even take a sniff at him(wasn't worth the money, quoth Clown). Same went for Dielman in SD, and Faneca several yrs back. All resulted in great running games for teams that received those guys or retained them(SD). Our noteworthy FAs, LA and JJ were a)old, and b) damaged goods.

Heitmann as a starter? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have seen Heitmann's stats presented repeatedly. Stats are one thing. Performance is another. Rocky Bernard going over Heitmann's back, or Heitmann getting shoved back into the QB are unfortunate events blazed on our memories forever. Show all the stats you want, and I , as well as others are not impressed. I am willing to be impressed, however. But it is gonna have to take a totally different Heitmann than we have seen previously. Could our OL coaching have had anything to do with the incredibly poor play of our OL? Please , God, make it be so. I would dearly love to see one, hopefully even 2 of the above 5 emerge as true starters under an OL coaching staff that has 49er DNA in it.

I restate: we took a QB #1 pick in the draft, and DID NOT protect him...ever. This yr will be different. We still have to have one of the above 5 step up and not only snap the ball but also run block and especially, protect alex.

Gnnhan tells it like it is. We were spoiled by McKIttrick, but we also had a guy who could teach as well as he did...coach walsh. We've had no OL coach worth a hill of beans since then, and no HC who knew and could coach OL except the GoAT, walsh. That said, I am extremely hopeful that solari/bigRay can right this ship...and Baalke has greatly added to their chance of success.

Lumping Heitmann with Baas, Snyder and Wragge is a joke, and you know it. You will not find one person in the Niners' organization, on the field, or in the press box who would agree with your mathematical equation.

Until you can get over that one play, from three years ago, with an injured Heitmann on the field, you will never be able to make a fair analysis of his play in 2008, 2009, and status going into 2010. And that bias continues to blind you from any form of fair analysis.

The play was three years ago, and Heitmann been the best OL on the team for the last two years running. The beat writers have consistently praised his play the past couple of years, but all you see is one play from three years ago, with an injured guy on the field.

In other words....at some point you are going to have to let go that one play from 2007. There is no perfect player, no flawless performance, so to constantly beat on this Rocky Bernard play is bordering on lunacy. Eric Heitmann is a very good player, and his teammates know it. That is why they vote him the team captain every year, and that is why the beat writers continue to praise his performance year-in, year-out.

Next subject.

Heitmann has been a very good player on a very inferior OL. But it hasn't been just one play, three years ago, that causes some fans to question his ability today.

How about the last offensive play in Minnesota last season. Niners up, less than 2 minutes to go, third and short, and Heitmann--their "best" offensive lineman--fails to get a push on Dan Williams enough to gain six inches and seal the win.

That loss is as much on Heitmann as it is on Roman, IMO. If you watch the OL play as much as you say, you saw it, too, He hit Williams too high, got pushed back instead of forward, and the play was stuffed behind him.

We've seen it in other games as well. The Niners' inability to get the short yardage has haunted them for years now, and Heitmann seems to be the main culprit.

It may be the only weakness in his game, but it needs to be addressed.

Hopefully, Solari can correct whatever technical problem (if that's what it is) that needs to be addressed.

With improved talent around him, Heitmann's play may be subject to even more scrutiny. He's got to step it up. IMHO.

I want to address one of the great myths of NFL centers, and how it relates to Heitmann. I watch nearly every game, every week, and I see short yardage situations across the NFL. Heitmann is in the same camp as everyone else. Teams pack in tight (especially the Niners) and the defense follows suit. Often a center has a guy shooting through one of the gaps to cover. It is a tough assignment if both gaps are being attacked. And, week to week, I see the same problem for all NFL centers.

Even the great Nick Mangold struggles in these situations, and he is a superior player to Heitmann. So, the "he can't block well in short yardage situations" that many state about Heitmann is an NFL center problem, not a Heitmann problem. Trust me, I have been closely watching this for some time now.

Heitmann has been known as one of the stronger, more physical centers in the NFL, as noted by MM and MB on multiple occasions the past year.

Mad, why do you love Heitmann so?