Ever since Singletary selected his Davis and Iupati, there has been lots of talk of us going 'smashmouth' and upgrading our o-line to a bunch of 'road-graders'. But after looking at what we actually have, that doesn't appear to be the case. Lets look at our potential o-line:
Davis
- based on most of the draft reports, he is excellent in pass protection and above average as a run blocker. It sounds like he was the best pass protector in college football last year.
Staley
- Theres been a lot of debate this offseason on these boards about how good Staley actually is. In pass protection, he is pretty good. Not great, but above average. His run blocking skills aren't that great though. Considering he was an undersized, former tight end when we drafted him, this makes sense.
Rachal
- I am making the assumption that Solari works out the inconsistency issues we have been seeing with him and helps him reach his potential. When he has played well, he has done it both pass and run blocking, but I will give you a link showing he is better as a pass protector than a run blocker: http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=G&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1
Heitmann
- Undersized, even for a center. Still a very solid player. Should be a solid signal caller for a young o-line.
Iupati
- Finally, A pure road grader! He didn't give up a sack his senior year so I believe that he has the potential to be a great all around player, but as of right now he is a run blocker, pure and simple.
In conclusion, I believe this is an oline better suited to the spread than Singletary's three steps and a cloud offense. I feel like a run-heavy offense would not utilize any of our players strengths in the way a pass heavy offense would, except Iupati.
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Is our O-Line really a bunch of road graders?
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Apr 26, 2010 at 9:15 AM
- nannite
- Veteran
- Posts: 368
Apr 26, 2010 at 9:33 AM
- FILTHpigskin
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,530
Apr 26, 2010 at 9:47 AM
- Chico
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,546
Only time will tell! We need continuity! We need these guys in camp early so that we establish an O-line! Remember that we got two Rooks on the offensive line and it's rare that they succeed right away. I think it will take a year for those guys to learn the system and learn how to play vs the best talent in the league. They're not going up against smaller, less talented college guys anymore. They will be going up against bigger, faster, stronger guys with more talent and experience. Anthony Davis is only 20 years old and he will be going up against a 28yr old that could probably over power him.
Apr 26, 2010 at 9:51 AM
- Kolohe
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 59,829
How is Heitmann undersized at 6'3" 315 pounds, hes bigger than Mawae and Mangold.
Apr 26, 2010 at 9:59 AM
- Micky6
- Veteran
- Posts: 3,353
People love to talk about how all Singletary wants is to run the ball. He’s never said that. He has always maintained that he wants balance and that he wants the offense to be able to run the ball when it has to run the ball. That isn’t saying that he is building the team to look like the 2000 Ravens. Not at all.
The team has invested in players like V. Davis and Crabtree to help be targets in the passing game. Playing time at the RB position has been given (almost exclusively) to players that are competent in blitz pickup.
I agree with nannite’s assertion that this current Oline is not necessary a bulrush team and that nearly all the currently Olinemen have been used and have excelled in pass protection. With that said, nearly every guy is big (and nasty), and that tends to lend itself to that argument. These Oline pickups are as much about the passing game (if not a little more) than they are about the running game. The bottom line is that both need to be better.
The team has invested in players like V. Davis and Crabtree to help be targets in the passing game. Playing time at the RB position has been given (almost exclusively) to players that are competent in blitz pickup.
I agree with nannite’s assertion that this current Oline is not necessary a bulrush team and that nearly all the currently Olinemen have been used and have excelled in pass protection. With that said, nearly every guy is big (and nasty), and that tends to lend itself to that argument. These Oline pickups are as much about the passing game (if not a little more) than they are about the running game. The bottom line is that both need to be better.
Apr 26, 2010 at 10:41 AM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,335
Originally posted by Micky6:
People love to talk about how all Singletary wants is to run the ball. He’s never said that. He has always maintained that he wants balance and that he wants the offense to be able to run the ball when it has to run the ball. That isn’t saying that he is building the team to look like the 2000 Ravens. Not at all.
The team has invested in players like V. Davis and Crabtree to help be targets in the passing game. Playing time at the RB position has been given (almost exclusively) to players that are competent in blitz pickup.
I agree with nannite’s assertion that this current Oline is not necessary a bulrush team and that nearly all the currently Olinemen have been used and have excelled in pass protection. With that said, nearly every guy is big (and nasty), and that tends to lend itself to that argument. These Oline pickups are as much about the passing game (if not a little more) than they are about the running game. The bottom line is that both need to be better.
Great post Mickey!
I'd like to add...I agree that Singletary is preaching "balance" this year esp. after last year's claim to run at will. And how can he not with the success we had in passing esp. from the spread with Alex, Crabtree, VD, Gore & company out of the backfield, Morgan...now guys such as Ginn, we still have Hill and our new draft picks, Brit Miller may be worked into the mix who appears to have a complete game, etc.
But my assertion is that we not only need to have a balance BETWEEN running and passing but more importantly, WITHIN the running game and WITHIN the passing game.
Last year we exclusively passed on teams we should have run on and run exclusively against teams we should have passed on.
But the glaring issue aside from poor game-planning was that, esp. in the running game, the formations were totally predictable and even the personnel lent itself to telegraphing what the play was going to be. So THIS year, instead of 99% of the runs straight up the gut against 8 and 9-man run blitzing defenses, how about a RB toss (sweep, toss-out), a reverse with Ginn, quick WR and RB screens outside; all to soften up the edge and keep defenses guessing. I was watching tape of Leroy Vann this morning and could not believe how much he reminds me of Darren Sproles and how the Chargers use him not only between the tackles but esp. off tackle.
As for the passing game, now we have our deep threats. Instead of the constant seam pass to VD down the middle of the field every time, how about stretch it with a deep out, post pattern, double-move and go? And how about a crossing pattern for God's sakes! With as much speed as we now have with a VD and Ginn, these guys should be running crossing patterns on short passes and allowed to run from sideline to sideline with their speed and take it to the house. Morgan is a great possession receiver and Crabtree is even better - intermediate zone are where they could make a living.
This year will fall on Singletary's philosphy to be able to run when we need too. But let's not forget the WCO and the theory was to game-plan effeciently, dominante in the pass game and run up the score and THEN run when we needed to in the second halfs of game and win comfortably while teeing off on defense.
IMHO, this is Singeltary/Raye's year (with the help of Johnson and more input with Alex) to show they know some X's & O's, can game-plan properly against an opponent exploiting their weaknesses, get the players in place to execute best, make in-game and half-time adjustments and essentially, out-coach another team. Did we see that at all last year?
We now have the players and can no longer pin things on the o-line or Alex. If we fail, it starts at the top with philosophy and then the OC. Mike's got his players now.
Apr 26, 2010 at 11:20 AM
- stevenking57
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,609
Originally posted by NCommand:Originally posted by Micky6:
People love to talk about how all Singletary wants is to run the ball. He’s never said that. He has always maintained that he wants balance and that he wants the offense to be able to run the ball when it has to run the ball. That isn’t saying that he is building the team to look like the 2000 Ravens. Not at all.
The team has invested in players like V. Davis and Crabtree to help be targets in the passing game. Playing time at the RB position has been given (almost exclusively) to players that are competent in blitz pickup.
I agree with nannite’s assertion that this current Oline is not necessary a bulrush team and that nearly all the currently Olinemen have been used and have excelled in pass protection. With that said, nearly every guy is big (and nasty), and that tends to lend itself to that argument. These Oline pickups are as much about the passing game (if not a little more) than they are about the running game. The bottom line is that both need to be better.
Great post Mickey!
I'd like to add...I agree that Singletary is preaching "balance" this year esp. after last year's claim to run at will. And how can he not with the success we had in passing esp. from the spread with Alex, Crabtree, VD, Gore & company out of the backfield, Morgan...now guys such as Ginn, we still have Hill and our new draft picks, Brit Miller may be worked into the mix who appears to have a complete game, etc.
But my assertion is that we not only need to have a balance BETWEEN running and passing but more importantly, WITHIN the running game and WITHIN the passing game.
Last year we exclusively passed on teams we should have run on and run exclusively against teams we should have passed on.
But the glaring issue aside from poor game-planning was that, esp. in the running game, the formations were totally predictable and even the personnel lent itself to telegraphing what the play was going to be. So THIS year, instead of 99% of the runs straight up the gut against 8 and 9-man run blitzing defenses, how about a RB toss (sweep, toss-out), a reverse with Ginn, quick WR and RB screens outside; all to soften up the edge and keep defenses guessing. I was watching tape of Leroy Vann this morning and could not believe how much he reminds me of Darren Sproles and how the Chargers use him not only between the tackles but esp. off tackle.
As for the passing game, now we have our deep threats. Instead of the constant seam pass to VD down the middle of the field every time, how about stretch it with a deep out, post pattern, double-move and go? And how about a crossing pattern for God's sakes! With as much speed as we now have with a VD and Ginn, these guys should be running crossing patterns on short passes and allowed to run from sideline to sideline with their speed and take it to the house. Morgan is a great possession receiver and Crabtree is even better - intermediate zone are where they could make a living.
This year will fall on Singletary's philosphy to be able to run when we need too. But let's not forget the WCO and the theory was to game-plan effeciently, dominante in the pass game and run up the score and THEN run when we needed to in the second halfs of game and win comfortably while teeing off on defense.
IMHO, this is Singeltary/Raye's year (with the help of Johnson and more input with Alex) to show they know some X's & O's, can game-plan properly against an opponent exploiting their weaknesses, get the players in place to execute best, make in-game and half-time adjustments and essentially, out-coach another team. Did we see that at all last year?
We now have the players and can no longer pin things on the o-line or Alex. If we fail, it starts at the top with philosophy and then the OC. Mike's got his players now.
You make some excellent points. I read that we ran the MOST between the guards than any other NFL team. Even when the defense stacked up in the box, we still tried run up the gut. I don't care how good your O-Line is, in the NFL that will not work. Right now I feel that we have the talent to be very good IF Sing and Raye will loosen up and be more creative with the play calling. There were too many times that we would run up the gut twice and then be 3rd and seven and every one in the stadium knew that we had to pass the ball. That's an impossible situation for the Q.B. and the O-line. We now should have the O-line and W.R.'s to throw the ball more with confidence. With Crabtree, Morgan, Ginn, Gore, and Davis we have a lot of speed. We need to use it. We don't have to bomb the ball down the field all day, just the ball into their hands and let them make the plays!
Apr 26, 2010 at 11:26 AM
- 49ersnum1
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,265
How will the Oline look??
Heitman
Wragge
Iupati
Rachal
Baas
Snyder
Simms
Staley
A.Davis
LT- Staley LG- Iupati C- Heitman RG- Baas/Rachal/Snyder? RT- A.Davis
Heitman
Wragge
Iupati
Rachal
Baas
Snyder
Simms
Staley
A.Davis
LT- Staley LG- Iupati C- Heitman RG- Baas/Rachal/Snyder? RT- A.Davis
Apr 26, 2010 at 11:47 AM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,335
Originally posted by stevenking57:
You make some excellent points. I read that we ran the MOST between the guards than any other NFL team. Even when the defense stacked up in the box, we still tried run up the gut. I don't care how good your O-Line is, in the NFL that will not work. Right now I feel that we have the talent to be very good IF Sing and Raye will loosen up and be more creative with the play calling. There were too many times that we would run up the gut twice and then be 3rd and seven and every one in the stadium knew that we had to pass the ball. That's an impossible situation for the Q.B. and the O-line. We now should have the O-line and W.R.'s to throw the ball more with confidence. With Crabtree, Morgan, Ginn, Gore, and Davis we have a lot of speed. We need to use it. We don't have to bomb the ball down the field all day, just the ball into their hands and let them make the plays!
Essentially, it was Singletary's first full year as it was Raye's first full year of learning about the talent on this team. This year, with even more talent added, there will be no more excuses. I honestly didn't feel an OC should be ill-equipped to know the strengths of his players and their abilities but I will give Raye a pass for last year. But he needs to prove to all of us in 2010 that he is more then his long track record suggests - average. Singletary will be in his own hot seat right from the gate with a draft and off-season that had HIS philosophy in mind. There is no question about it. The past couple years we had good starts and then failed badly during stretches (a trend noted in another thread), we've had a TERRIBLE road record and have lost many many games to poor coaching calls or decisions. We can't throw the o-line under the bus this year! So, will Singletary and Raye step up to the plate and deliver a dynamic "balanced" offense or prove that Singletary is just a motivator; a defensive, old-school coach who's stuck in 1985 and knows nothing about offense and will Raye prove that the best predictor of future behavior is the past and has the game clearly passed him by years ago? For the sake of the 49ers and it's fans, I sure hope not!
Stay tuned fans...
It's all or nothing this year!!!
Apr 26, 2010 at 11:58 AM
- SolRebe1
- Veteran
- Posts: 13,443
Originally posted by 49ersnum1:
How will the Oline look??
Heitman
Wragge
Iupati
Rachal
Baas
Snyder
Simms
Staley
A.Davis
LT- Staley LG- Iupati C- Heitman RG- Baas/Rachal/Snyder? RT- A.Davis
You left out Boone and Wallace
Apr 26, 2010 at 12:12 PM
- dbdublin
- Veteran
- Posts: 881
Originally posted by Kolohe:
How is Heitmann undersized at 6'3" 315 pounds, hes bigger than Mawae and Mangold.
That's what I was going to ask. Since when is 6' 3" 312 (from 49ers.com) "undersized even for a center"?
Apr 26, 2010 at 12:12 PM
- VA49er
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,863
BLUF. We did exactly what we should have done. We addressed the O-line in the draft as best we could. I like what Mooch said. in two years this could be "The best line in football." Not best running, not best passing. Just the best. It's up to the players and coaches but I agree. The potential is there.
At the very least we have a capable left tackle in Staley, and if Davis wants to OWN the left side then we know Staley is a more than capable right tackle. If I had to guess we will see Davis take the left side and staley will be a dominant guy on the right. Iupati sounds like a can't miss prospect as a guard. Rachal has flashed potential and will deliver. Center is set. And who knows, maybe some of the vets will step it up with the pressure created by the two noobs and make something out of themselves. I'm very hopeful for the line running or passing this year.
I also want to second the part about upgrading the pass protection as well. I think if Alex has 4-5 seconds he can destroy people.
I'm optimistic every year but this year I'm actually starting to believe.
At the very least we have a capable left tackle in Staley, and if Davis wants to OWN the left side then we know Staley is a more than capable right tackle. If I had to guess we will see Davis take the left side and staley will be a dominant guy on the right. Iupati sounds like a can't miss prospect as a guard. Rachal has flashed potential and will deliver. Center is set. And who knows, maybe some of the vets will step it up with the pressure created by the two noobs and make something out of themselves. I'm very hopeful for the line running or passing this year.
I also want to second the part about upgrading the pass protection as well. I think if Alex has 4-5 seconds he can destroy people.
I'm optimistic every year but this year I'm actually starting to believe.
Apr 26, 2010 at 12:14 PM
- LeftBankeNiner
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,382
Give them a chance to prove themselves. Don't expect miracles.
Apr 26, 2010 at 12:39 PM
- nannite
- Veteran
- Posts: 368
Originally posted by dbdublin:Originally posted by Kolohe:
How is Heitmann undersized at 6'3" 315 pounds, hes bigger than Mawae and Mangold.
That's what I was going to ask. Since when is 6' 3" 312 (from 49ers.com) "undersized even for a center"?
Yes, your both right. For some reason I associate Heitmann with being undersized.
Apr 26, 2010 at 12:42 PM
- nannite
- Veteran
- Posts: 368
Originally posted by LeftBankeNiner:
Give them a chance to prove themselves. Don't expect miracles.
My post wasn't saying theyre not good, it was that we are not building a line of old school, smashmouth hogs. We have two bookends that could just as well be playing on Indianapolis. I hope we don't try the run,run pass offense and get frustrated that our tackles arent up to dominating the run game. (although our interior might be able to do that)
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