MM's draft article: another way to get OT.

Im in favor of any move up the board. The "wait and see who falls" approach is not guaranteed to get us an OT, because we know that 3 or 4 OTs could be picked before we select at 13. I encourage a pro-active approach where we trade up and get our OT.

For those that retort that this is a deep draft and we should stay put I respectfully disagree. Deep drafts suggest that there are many quality players that can be found in the first couple of rounds. If you want quality players you could stay put and draft a couple. If you want ELITE players, as we desperately need on the O-line, then you have to draft them earlier than 13. Some players fall through the cracks and could slide (like Oher) but more times than not when you select the best prospect at a position he usually turns out to be the best player. The fourth OT selected usually will not be as good as the first or second selections. I want winners. Trade up!

Leftbank, we aren't going to trade our two top 1st rounders to move up.

Ceadder has max cost of trade pretty well nailed...#17 plus a third, this yr or next...okay, throw in a 5th rounder too if needed).

RSRK, I don't know if Okung is the consensus best OT, but probably he is. Drafting BPA is a sore point with me, especially when you see how well we have built our OL with it...resulting in QBs getting creamed, Frank's yards decreasing, WRs, TEs having to catch balls thrown by QBs literally throwing from on their backs, concussed, or shoulders separated. In short we tried BPA when we had no effective OL, and it failed. Problem is that is where we should have started to build the team...OL and DL. We haven't and have been a lock for 5-7wins for yrs now(oops, forgot that impressive 8 Ws last yr).

You know we have to have an OT. You said as much yourself. But when we land one, that one guy doesn't give us an all pro OL, tackle to tackle, as you suggested. It just gives us a second bona fide OL starter on a team bereft of true starters. A healthy Staley is our best OLineman. Out of Oaktown of all places we bring in Sims, who magically reaches back and puts on a professional imitation of a decent starter...for the last 5 games.

Ceadder is right in that we need that OT, but we also need a starting Center(kevin Mawae of Texans, anyone?... he is old, however). As noted above, imo baas=heitmann=snyder=rags. Four very good backups, but not a starter amongst them(yet they do start and hence our OL can't block). That's sure no surprise. So if we are going to get an OT, let's get the best one. If our draft team/scouts/HC/OL coach think Williams is better, or someone else, fine. But we have put off building the OL long enough. There is excellent OT talent out there, but not after the first 4 OTs. What good does BPA do if we snag a hotshot Safety and a good RB(or whatever)? We must stop this BPA bizness and get our OT. Unfortunately we need another starting OG with our #17 pick, hopefully iupati(i'd trade up for him, too). Center is busted, and we need it fixed, not BPA.

BPA works brilliantly for perennial SB calibre teams, ones always in the chase. It will work for us again, after we build our OL, then finish our DL/OLB. Do that and the rest of the pieces fall into place, BPA style.

Any question as to why to move up, is because 5 teams ahead of us will be drafting OTs, now that the Skins have McNabb. We had to move up, but that trade put a finer point on it.

As for your observation that our weakest link on the team is coaching...I could go you one further and say it is the terrible triumvirate of a) a green 28 y/o (appointed) owner, b) a woeful GM(that's been taken care of, and hopefully the yorks will give the replacement some real thot for a change), and c) our HC was promoted way over his abilities. DC would have been reasonable, but HC was a real reach. It is no fun watching your team play lites out only to get outcoached and lose.

Going from a single position coach(LB), (and having Noln as your mentor) and being jump promoted to HC never made much sense. But that was on the yorks, not bigMike. In time I expect he will become a good coach... but he will have to put in the time and have a superb HOFO over him for that to happen.

RSRK altho I agree with you on your stated position re coaching, there is nothing we can do about mgmt. A parcells, pioli, or loomis would be a good start. We can however, improve the talent level on this team, and all great teams are built, LINES 1st.

We can't draft or FA a new owner, GM, HC, OL coach(actually that is fixed), but we CAN draft and FA for an OL...something that should have been done once Mooch was fired. 9 yrs later and we still have no OL. It's time bro, and one of our 1st picks plus a 2nd next yr or a 3rd this yr(okay, throw in a 5th too), should be enough to bump us up to slot 5 or 6...and we get our OT.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Leftbank, we aren't going to trade our two top 1st rounders to move up.

Ceadder has max cost of trade pretty well nailed...#17 plus a third, this yr or next...okay, throw in a 5th rounder too if needed).

RSRK, I don't know if Okung is the consensus best OT, but probably he is. Drafting BPA is a sore point with me, especially when you see how well we have built our OL with it...resulting in QBs getting creamed, Frank's yards decreasing, WRs, TEs having to catch balls thrown by QBs literally throwing from on their backs, concussed, or shoulders separated. In short we tried BPA when we had no effective OL, and it failed. Problem is that is where we should have started to build the team...OL and DL. We haven't and have been a lock for 5-7wins for yrs now(oops, forgot that impressive 8 Ws last yr).

You know we have to have an OT. You said as much yourself. But when we land one, that one guy doesn't give us an all pro OL, tackle to tackle, as you suggested. It just gives us a second bona fide OL starter on a team bereft of true starters. A healthy Staley is our best OLineman. Out of Oaktown of all places we bring in Sims, who magically reaches back and puts on a professional imitation of a decent starter...for the last 5 games.

Ceadder is right in that we need that OT, but we also need a starting Center(kevin Mawae of Texans, anyone?... he is old, however). As noted above, imo baas=heitmann=snyder=rags. Four very good backups, but not a starter amongst them(yet they do start and hence our OL can't block). That's sure no surprise. So if we are going to get an OT, let's get the best one. If our draft team/scouts/HC/OL coach think Williams is better, or someone else, fine. But we have put off building the OL long enough. There is excellent OT talent out there, but not after the first 4 OTs. What good does BPA do if we snag a hotshot Safety and a good RB(or whatever)? We must stop this BPA bizness and get our OT. Unfortunately we need another starting OG with our #17 pick, hopefully iupati(i'd trade up for him, too). Center is busted, and we need it fixed, not BPA.

BPA works brilliantly for perennial SB calibre teams, ones always in the chase. It will work for us again, after we build our OL, then finish our DL/OLB. Do that and the rest of the pieces fall into place, BPA style.

Any question as to why to move up, is because 5 teams ahead of us will be drafting OTs, now that the Skins have McNabb. We had to move up, but that trade put a finer point on it.

As for your observation that our weakest link on the team is coaching...I could go you one further and say it is the terrible triumvirate of a) a green 28 y/o (appointed) owner, b) a woeful GM(that's been taken care of, and hopefully the yorks will give the replacement some real thot for a change), and c) our HC was promoted way over his abilities. DC would have been reasonable, but HC was a real reach. It is no fun watching your team play lites out only to get outcoached and lose.

Going from a single position coach(LB), (and having Noln as your mentor) and being jump promoted to HC never made much sense. But that was on the yorks, not bigMike. In time I expect he will become a good coach... but he will have to put in the time and have a superb HOFO over him for that to happen.

RSRK altho I agree with you on your stated position re coaching, there is nothing we can do about mgmt. A parcells, pioli, or loomis would be a good start. We can however, improve the talent level on this team, and all great teams are built, LINES 1st.

We can't draft or FA a new owner, GM, HC, OL coach(actually that is fixed), but we CAN draft and FA for an OL...something that should have been done once Mooch was fired. 9 yrs later and we still have no OL. It's time bro, and one of our 1st picks plus a 2nd next yr or a 3rd this yr(okay, throw in a 5th too), should be enough to bump us up to slot 5 or 6...and we get our OT.

Well, what more can I say, Doc?

I don't disagree with everything you say. I do disagree with some of your characterizations, as I pointed out in my previous post.

I agree we need to upgrade the play of our OL. We'll just have to disagree on how to accomplish that. I would certainly not package picks to trade up . . . don't think that there is any OT worth that this year. If the top four are gone when it comes our turn, I'd be amenable to trading down to pick up the kid from 'SC, Brown. Or Saffold. Or Ducasse, even.

A combination of coaching and player supplementation is our solution. By all means, Bring all the FAs to TC that you would want to try out.

We'll see what approach the Niners take on the draft, I guess.

I would only do it for Trent Williams or Okung. Bulaga and Davis have enough question marks attached to them to wait it out on draft day. I am unsure about Brown as a mid round pick if the Niners stay put. I would really be happy if the Niners trade back into the early 20's and take Saffold from Indiana. For some reason, he looks like a great option at that spot.

Hey , Doc.

Go to the DRAFT WAR ROOM thread and read the poast on the NFP comparison between Brown and Davis (a seemingly consensus top four OT). Okung is also discussed. You'll see what I mean about the uncertainty surrounding OTs this year. He reckons that Okung is no better than Brown. One man's opinion, but still . . .

I wouldn't be squandering picks to move up an get any of them.

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
I would only do it for Trent Williams or Okung. Bulaga and Davis have enough question marks attached to them to wait it out on draft day. I am unsure about Brown as a mid round pick if the Niners stay put. I would really be happy if the Niners trade back into the early 20's and take Saffold from Indiana. For some reason, he looks like a great option at that spot.

I agree. If Williams is there at #7 I'd look seriously at packaging #13 and #49 to Cleveland to make sure we get our RT. Then trade back with #17 to get a 2nd rounder back.

Sonoco, hard to argue with your thots, man. I, too, would be a lot less inclined to package something for Davis, maybe Bulaga. But Williams and Okung, you betcha.

As for the thots of picking OTs up farther down in draft, frankly we have had lousy luck doing it, and i just can't see adding more backup tackles. That is why we need to be in slot #5 or 6, if we want Okung or williams. I think they both could start, but they aren't Suh on D or his bud at #2. We got a bit stung by the mcNabb trade, so we have to compete with SKINs for OT also. Formerly they were locked on QB...not now. At slot #5 or 6 we get one of the two best OTs. I sure hope it happens.

[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Apr 10, 2010 at 21:58:47 ]

I'd rather trade back then up, pick up a pick or two and, and get somebody like Cambell or Brown. I just don't want an "if you can motivate him" type like Davis. We'd be well off if we picked up a lower second and a third for our second. We'd have two picks in the third round as well or the ability to trade the third rounders to get back into the second twice. It doesn't make sense to give up picks in a deep draft. With more picks high picks your eggs aren't all in one basket and you have more chances to catch lightning in a bottle.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Sonoco, hard to argue with your thots, man. I, too, would be a lot less inclined to package something for Davis, maybe Bulaga. But Williams and Okung, you betcha.

As for the thots of picking OTs up farther down in draft, frankly we have had lousy luck doing it, and i just can't see adding more backup tackles. That is why we need to be in slot #5 or 6, if we want Okung or williams. I think they both could start, but they aren't Suh on D or his bud at #2. We got a bit stung by the mcNabb trade, so we have to compete with SKINs for OT also. Formerly they were locked on QB...not now. At slot #5 or 6 we get one of the two best OTs. I sure hope it happens.

Didn't we get Staley at 28th? Charles Brown has a similar story and might be gotten in the second.

Originally posted by lamontb:
Bad idea simply b/c none of these OT's in this year's draft are worth trading up for. None of these guys are elite. Just got to see how things fall. If they miss out on the top 4 guys then they have to go by their board, but no need to trade up for this group of OT's.

I agree. Lets stay put or MOVE BACK and prolly get a guy with major upside. I just have a "hunch" that we may have our RT already on the team. Hint: There is a segment on him on 49ers.com as we speak!!!

...I like Iupati too!!!

I would be for trading up if there was an elite talent that could be our LT for years to come but it's simply not in this draft.

Trading up for a guy that you are figuring to be a RT would just be complete and utter insanity imo.

Look at it this way let's say in the unlikely event all 4 top tackles are taken and consider the top 3 picks likely be Bradford, Suh, McCoy that would be 7 of the picks before us will be tied up in 3 positions and possibly 8 if someone drafts Clausen. In that scenario that would mean some serious talent will be available to us at 13 and we would get by far more value from our pick than we would trading up.

Well, draft is over, baalke has spoken and...we did move up for A.Davis(2slots to ace out the Fins) and then brazenly took Iupati, who may become our best OL in yrs. I think moving up 2 slots for a 5th rounder was brilliant, because we got 3rd best OT in draft. I hope he is as good as he looked, but no doubt he is a player. True, not a Trent williams nor Okung, but definitely a starter for us and miles better than anyone on our OL except staley. Funny, that USC's OT Brown stayed around so long. On game film he never impressed me, and he wasn't picked for a reason. Had baalke not made that trade to move up, we would not have gotten our #1 need, a starting OT. Remember, we lost the "Hawk" to GB by one pick, and D'Brickshaw to Jets by one pick. Baalke wasn't going to let that happen. Good for him.

As for Iupati, altho i know taking 2 OLs in first rd has never been done, there is no question we had to do it. My bet is Iupati becomes the best OL we have had here in 10, maybe 12 yrs. For the record, that was what i thot was going to happen...but that was a very tiny minority opinion. Fortunately, baalke shared it.

The business about packaging our two first rounders for Okung was silly. But nailing down one of the top 3 starting OTs, was serious business, and wouldn't have happened if baalke didn't move up. The deal about then taking Iupati just tells me we finally have a guy making decisions who gets it. Scot was a decent evaluator of talent, but didn't know how to build a team. It seems as if mr. baalke does.