Does P.Willis have to win a superbowl

I agree that he probably doesn't HAVE to win a superbowl. He needs to sustain the excellence he has already shown. Performance year after year, game after game is what has made Ray Lewis as great as he is. The Superbowl doesn't come to mind in the eyes of those that evaluate Defensive talent. However if Lewis was a QB who reached the Superbowl, the ring is the thing.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I probably hold the most unpoplar view on this. That is, Ray Lewis is far anway a better football player that Patrick Willis. Sure they may be pretty close to equal in physical attributes and stats, but there isn't a stat book big enough to carry the value Ray brings to his teammates in terms of leadership, inspiration and accountablility. Willis can't even wear the green dot helment let alone call the defense based on what he sees on offense.

Willis is a physically gifted player, but IMO he couldn't hold a candle to Lewis on his best day. Lewis has the "it" factor we usually talk about with QBs. Even if Willis continued to play at his currentl level the next 10 years I would still draft Ray Ray. I would probably even draft Sing over Willis.

And please dont give me that quiet leader crap. No war was ever won by a quiet leader. Haven't you all seen Brave Heart....

I understand exactly what you are saying. Ray Ray has something inside of him that I've never seen in a defensive player of this generation. I don't hold it against Willis b/c Ray is just that special. Willis has to win a super bowl to be put on Ray Ray's level but to surpass him may be impossible. I think to expect him to be more vocal like Ray is is just wishful thinking. It's not him and it won't be. Ray is just special him special point blank. It's something intangible that can't be measured. Like Montant's coolness in clutch moments. Look at Peyton you can say he does everything in a physical standpoint better than Montana. But Montana has that special intangible that can't be taught. And at the end of the day Manning just can't measure up. Total tackles means nothing. Winning and leading your team to championship and being competitive every single year is what makes you one of the greats. Willis is on his way.

I hate to say it but yes. Willis will get the tackles stats, but being on a subpar team hurts.

Originally posted by krizay:
to win a superbowl takes a whole team effort. I don't think any player should be judged by the amount of SB's they have.

I do think he needs to be the catalyst for a dominant defense for years to surpass Ray Ray.

Excellent comment! I can't stand people saying stuff like "Payton Manning isn't a great QB cause he lost the Superbowl" or "we can't win the Superbowl with Alex Smith". It is complete nonsense.... even for a position as important as QB. You have to have an all around great team to win the big game.

For Willis to surpass R. Lewis, he just has to dominate the position for the next 10 years. No small task BTW.

no. lol. he's a MIDDLE LINEBACKER, not a QB. QB is pretty much the only position that people judge by superbowls, not stats, because well, QBs have so much control over a team. you have to show you can WIN. no other player has that much control on a team. QB is THE MOST important position. hands down. if willis wants to be one of the greatest ever, he needs more fumbles, INTS, sacks, and TDs. tackles dont say much because 1) if your offense keeps getting 3-out then you have more chances for tackles 2) if the rest of your defense sucks, you will get a lot more oppertunities to make the tackle yourself.
its hard to judge a player based soley on tackles. although, willis's numbers are damn impressive, when you look at how consistant he plays.

Yes!

Originally posted by niners4life:

Originally posted by redrathman:

Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Ray Lewis was a HUGE part of the reason the Ravens won the SB, I mean Dilfer was their QB so it's not like they had an offensive juggernaut team.

Juggernaut? No, but the Baltimore Ravens had an exceptional running game (good for 5th in the NFL) featuring Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes. The offense ranked 14th in the NFL in scoring, which was plenty for a defense that held opposing offenses in the playoffs to an average of just six points.

Also, Dilfer was 7-1 as a starter and 4-0 (obviously) as a playoff Quarterback.

They did have a great running game, but when your offense goes 5 straight weeks without a TD and you continue to win games, you've got one heck of a defense.

Actually, they only won two of those five games (against the Browns and Jaguars) and only begun scoring touchdowns again once Tony Banks was benched.

I wish the best to P. Willis, I just hope we can keep him to win some S.B.
Who knows what he wants for his future or in a team, Hope its nothing but S.F.

Yes

Ray has led a dominating defense for about 10 years. Even when that defense was dominating statistically, it was still respected around the league. So Willis could lead a dominant defense for 10 years and ppl will still give the edge to Ray because he has a ring.

Ray is also a lot more charismatic than Willis and will probably always be more famous. And popularity plays a huge role in things like this.

Its unfortunate, but its true.

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I probably hold the most unpoplar view on this. That is, Ray Lewis is far anway a better football player that Patrick Willis. Sure they may be pretty close to equal in physical attributes and stats, but there isn't a stat book big enough to carry the value Ray brings to his teammates in terms of leadership, inspiration and accountablility. Willis can't even wear the green dot helment let alone call the defense based on what he sees on offense.

Willis is a physically gifted player, but IMO he couldn't hold a candle to Lewis on his best day. Lewis has the "it" factor we usually talk about with QBs. Even if Willis continued to play at his currentl level the next 10 years I would still draft Ray Ray. I would probably even draft Sing over Willis.

And please dont give me that quiet leader crap. No war was ever won by a quiet leader. Haven't you all seen Brave Heart....

I understand exactly what you are saying. Ray Ray has something inside of him that I've never seen in a defensive player of this generation. I don't hold it against Willis b/c Ray is just that special. Willis has to win a super bowl to be put on Ray Ray's level but to surpass him may be impossible. I think to expect him to be more vocal like Ray is is just wishful thinking. It's not him and it won't be. Ray is just special him special point blank. It's something intangible that can't be measured. Like Montant's coolness in clutch moments. Look at Peyton you can say he does everything in a physical standpoint better than Montana. But Montana has that special intangible that can't be taught. And at the end of the day Manning just can't measure up. Total tackles means nothing. Winning and leading your team to championship and being competitive every single year is what makes you one of the greats. Willis is on his way.

After going over my post a few days removed, I realized I sounded a lot more anti Willis than I intended. Lamontb explained it much better than I did. I think Willis is a great MLB, but I think Lewis could be the GOAT all things considered. IMO, he is that special and that's hard to measure.

I think that PWilly doesn't have to win a SB. He can outplay RayRay and become the best MLB ever....but haing multiple sb's would help alot.

Originally posted by Overkill:
Yes

Ray has led a dominating defense for about 10 years. Even when that defense was dominating statistically, it was still respected around the league. So Willis could lead a dominant defense for 10 years and ppl will still give the edge to Ray because he has a ring.

Ray is also a lot more charismatic than Willis and will probably always be more famous. And popularity plays a huge role in things like this.

Its unfortunate, but its true.

I'm gonna have to agree with this.

I think he'll probably have around the same sort of stats and longevity... but like they always say about Marino -- he shoulda won a SB. I think to surpass the greatness that is Ray Lewis (who can deny he is unbelievable and the heart, soul, and face of the Baltimore franchise) he does have to win a title. Or two even.

Barry Sanders never won the superbowl, and some people can make a very strong case that he's the best RB of all time (that's not my opinion however).......


so the answer to this question is no. number of superbowls won usually only go into the QB debate.

I think the question should be "Does P.Willis have to be a part of a legendary defense to surpass Lewis?"

The reality is we are trying to compare Willis to a guy that was the cornerstone (center piece) of an all time great defense. Ray was the most influencial player on a championship, HOF defense. Let's face it, it was the Ravens D that won the SB. 2000 was the last time I remember watching a defense waiting for it to score. They just didn't cause three and outs, they made offenses turn the ball over. The same thing could be said of Singletary and his 85 Bears. So even if the Niners won the SB next year, that would only matter if it was on the back of the defense.

Secondly, a lot of you guys are only looking at stats and probowls. What about the mental aspect of the game? Seriously, how can you consider Ray and Willis equal when the mental aspect of the game isn't there for Willis yet? Did any of you guys watch the probowl? Did you notice how when Lewis got in he was immediatly directing traffic and telling the D where to be on the field based on the O formatiion? He not only knows his position he knows the positions around him. Willis is slowed simply by having to call in plays, let alone determine and call them out himself.

So yes, on a purley stat level I think Willis could rival and maybe surpass Ray Ray, but imo, he is far away from having the impact on a team that Ray does.

This debate reminds me a lot of the Brady vs. Montana crap.

He's not a QB so no he doesn't have to win a SB. But it would help..