The O-line & Alex Smith

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

There's a reason why the better QB's in the league shift over as soon as they hit their plant foot on the drop-back. It's because they read the defense and know where the pressure will come from at the snap of the ball, so they move away from it before it gets there.

Alex has issues knowing where the blitz is coming from. If it's coming up the middle then he needs to be able to read this and move slightly away from it as soon as he hits that back foot rather than standing there and trying to find a receiver that much faster. The Great QBs not only immediately shift away, but they shift into a passing lane. Our guy tries to throw it through linemen.

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

The Vikings gave up 43 sacks in 2008 (that's 3 more than our supposed horrible o-line did this year) and their QBs had a combined passer rating of 81.5, and that with only attempting 452 passes (28th in the league in '08). This year, Favre alone attempted 531 passes, was sacked 34 times and had a passer rating of 107.2. The only real difference on their line this year was adding rookie RT Phil Loadholt, who isn't exactly a pass-protection wizard.

[ Edited by GoFD74 on Jan 8, 2010 at 12:46:23 ]

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

AP ran for how many yards last year? i dont think the line in Minn has been an issue in recent years.

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

AP ran for how many yards last year? i dont think the line in Minn has been an issue in recent years.

He was referring to pass protection.

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

AP ran for how many yards last year? i dont think the line in Minn has been an issue in recent years.

He was referring to pass protection.

Then his point would be right, a QB can improve the O-Line. Hill accounted for 45% of the sacks given up in only 5.5 games. Once Smith came in, the sacks % went down..

Hill - 18 sacks in 5.5 games
Smith - 22 sacks in 10.5 games

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

AP ran for how many yards last year? i dont think the line in Minn has been an issue in recent years.

He was referring to pass protection.

Then his point would be right, a QB can improve the O-Line. Hill accounted for 45% of the sacks given up in only 5.5 games. Once Smith came in, the sacks % went down..

Hill - 18 sacks in 5.5 games
Smith - 22 sacks in 10.5 games

Absolutely, Alex's play improved the sack totals. Smith even improved the overall output of the passing game...the question I have goes beyond incremental improvements in sack totals or even passing yards (which, to his credit, Smith has shown he can do).

The big question is, does he have the overall QB skills to lead a franchise to a title? I don't think we have a definitive answer yet, but my gut (for whatever that's worth) tells me no. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am in this regard.

[ Edited by GoFD74 on Jan 8, 2010 at 13:02:46 ]

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

AP ran for how many yards last year? i dont think the line in Minn has been an issue in recent years.

He was referring to pass protection.

Then his point would be right, a QB can improve the O-Line. Hill accounted for 45% of the sacks given up in only 5.5 games. Once Smith came in, the sacks % went down..

Hill - 18 sacks in 5.5 games
Smith - 22 sacks in 10.5 games

Absolutely, Alex's play improved the sack totals. Smith even improved the overall output of the passing game...the question I have goes beyond incremental improvements in sack totals or even passing yards (which, to his credit, Smith has shown he can do).

The big question is, does he have the overall QB skills to lead a franchise to a title? I don't think we have a definitive answer yet, but my gut (for whatever that's worth) tells me no. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am in this regard.

Another difference is that Hill didn't have Gore for 3 of those 5.5 games to help in Pass Protection. Gore is a VERY good blocker. Comparing Hill in Raye's offense to Smith in Raye's offense is comparing apples to oranges. The type offense did a complete 180 in philosophy. That's like comparing Hill in Martz's offense to Smith in Hostler's offense.

Type of offense does make a difference but the biggest difference is usually the QB.

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

AP ran for how many yards last year? i dont think the line in Minn has been an issue in recent years.

He was referring to pass protection.

Then his point would be right, a QB can improve the O-Line. Hill accounted for 45% of the sacks given up in only 5.5 games. Once Smith came in, the sacks % went down..

Hill - 18 sacks in 5.5 games
Smith - 22 sacks in 10.5 games

Absolutely, Alex's play improved the sack totals. Smith even improved the overall output of the passing game...the question I have goes beyond incremental improvements in sack totals or even passing yards (which, to his credit, Smith has shown he can do).

The big question is, does he have the overall QB skills to lead a franchise to a title? I don't think we have a definitive answer yet, but my gut (for whatever that's worth) tells me no. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am in this regard.

Agreed. We should have a lot of questions answered this upcoming season.

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HomerJ:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
The play of Aaron Rodgers tells you all you need to know about the relationship between the QB and his o-line. A good QB makes everyone on the team look great, even a bad o-line (and the Packers do have a very bad o-line...yes, worse than ours).

Get a better QB (which admittedly isn't easy), and watch magically how things begin to improve from an offensive standpoint...even with a mediocre o-line. Better reads are made at the line of scrimmage, blitzes are recognized and single coverage is exploited more often, the ball comes out quicker and defenses in general have to play things more honestly when they know they're going up against a formidable QB.

I don't know if Alex can ever be all of these things, but I do know that even if we improve the o-line dramatically, he still needs to learn to play like an NFL QB. Otherwise, we'll be dealing with the same things over and over, year after year.

Vikings had one of the worst pass protections last year...then....they got Favre.

Also look at Jason Campbell. He was sacked 43 times and I don't recall Washington helping him pad his stats with a passing oriented offense. Remember, Smith got most of his stats in the "Ray-Gun" and whenever we went to the I-Formation, Smiths' stats declined.

Just about the entire Vikings O-Line made the pro bowl....

same oline that sucked last year beside a rookie RT. Adrian Peterson and Favre help that Oline a lot.

AP ran for how many yards last year? i dont think the line in Minn has been an issue in recent years.

He was referring to pass protection.

Then his point would be right, a QB can improve the O-Line. Hill accounted for 45% of the sacks given up in only 5.5 games. Once Smith came in, the sacks % went down..

Hill - 18 sacks in 5.5 games
Smith - 22 sacks in 10.5 games

Absolutely, Alex's play improved the sack totals. Smith even improved the overall output of the passing game...the question I have goes beyond incremental improvements in sack totals or even passing yards (which, to his credit, Smith has shown he can do).

The big question is, does he have the overall QB skills to lead a franchise to a title? I don't think we have a definitive answer yet, but my gut (for whatever that's worth) tells me no. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am in this regard.

We saw some major improvement from Smith this year. I thought he was handled as if it was his rookie year all over again. (Too bad he wasn't treated in a similar fashion when he was a rookie, he might be further ahead in his developement today.) He appeared at times to be far more accurate and in control when he became the starter five and a half games into the season, and it was wise to hold him out til then, to make sure he had a good grasp of the offense, etc.

That being said, there is still uncertainty about his ability to take it to the next level, to lead the franchise to a title, as you say.

For what its worth, I tend to agree with you. Smith hasn't shown that he has that "it" factor that great QBs seem to possess. If he does, he's keeping it well hidden.

However, I think he's still developing and growing as a QB. He certainly seems to be hard working and devoted to improving himself. My belief is that he will be the starter next year, and I hope he will have improved enough to turn some doubters into believers.

If not, Nate Davis is there behind him, and if he is able to improve and mature, he might be able to take over. He has shown some of that "it" factor, even if it was only against preseason scrubs.

So the plan appears to be, give Smith his shot next year, then--IF he fails--move on to see if Nate Davis is the guy. And continue to try to upgrade the position behind those two guys.

I give Singletary credit for (a) working with Smith to allow him to develop and grow, and (b) having a back up plan, and a back up QB already in place.

Originally posted by Shorteous:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by djutberg:
For evidence of this assertion, compare the '08 vs. '09 seasons of Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler.

Both of their teams underperformed.

We do not have the worst OL in the league. We are actually ranked 19 in QB being pressured.

I think it's safe to admit that it's a combination of both, QB and OL.

ya but what were we ranked before we started going to the gun alot... I know once we moved to the gun it allowed Alex to get the ball out faster and gave the line more cushion. I know our sacks numbers diminished greatly from that point.

I say your blanket stat is misleading.. what say you?

Originally posted by 1251alex:

Originally posted by Shorteous:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by djutberg:
For evidence of this assertion, compare the '08 vs. '09 seasons of Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler.

Both of their teams underperformed.

We do not have the worst OL in the league. We are actually ranked 19 in QB being pressured.

I think it's safe to admit that it's a combination of both, QB and OL.

ya but what were we ranked before we started going to the gun alot... I know once we moved to the gun it allowed Alex to get the ball out faster and gave the line more cushion. I know our sacks numbers diminished greatly from that point.

I say your blanket stat is misleading.. what say you?

Yeah, but why were we required to go to the gun a lot? Because Alex can't make the decision while he's dropping back and he freezes in one spot when he drops back. Good luck with having him in the shotgun for most of our passes because then we won't be able to disguise much between the run and the pass.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by 1251alex:

Originally posted by Shorteous:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by djutberg:
For evidence of this assertion, compare the '08 vs. '09 seasons of Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler.

Both of their teams underperformed.

We do not have the worst OL in the league. We are actually ranked 19 in QB being pressured.

I think it's safe to admit that it's a combination of both, QB and OL.

ya but what were we ranked before we started going to the gun alot... I know once we moved to the gun it allowed Alex to get the ball out faster and gave the line more cushion. I know our sacks numbers diminished greatly from that point.

I say your blanket stat is misleading.. what say you?

Yeah, but why were we required to go to the gun a lot? Because Alex can't make the decision while he's dropping back and he freezes in one spot when he drops back. Good luck with having him in the shotgun for most of our passes because then we won't be able to disguise much between the run and the pass.

Do I smell pwnage????

I really believe there are 2 main approaches to playing QB, instinctive and cerebral, and all NFL QBs fall somewhere in that spectrum. The instinctive QB thrives on a true "feel" for the game and can read and react as if it's second nature. The cerebral QB is a student of the game and dissects their own playbook and the oppositions defense to understand how to succeed.

On the cerebral end is Peyton Manning and on the instinctive end sits Brett Favre. I believe every other QB is somewhere in between. Thus, I would say Manning and Favre take completely opposite approaches to playing QB.

I think the QBs who are able to make their o-line look better than they are tend to be the more instinctive QBs: Favre, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, etc. Also, QBs that can scramble too, obviously.

I would argue that Alex Smith is on the extreme end of the cerebral QB, maybe even on par with Peyton Manning. Does anyone remember how much Manning struggled in the first half of last year? He later admitted to taking almost no reps in training camp and preseason (because of knee surgery) along with major injuries to his o-line and receivers that he had built timing with over multiple seasons.

Another case in point is when we played them this year. We got more pressure on him than any other team and he really struggled. Sure he threw for lots of yards, but couldn't put it in the endzone. They needed a trick play just to score a TD against us!

My point is, a cerebral QB needs a good o-line and lots of continuity and familiarity to thrive. I can't prove it, but I think if Manning had new coordinators and receivers every year with a poor o-line he wouldn't be nearly the player he is. That's not a knock against him, it's just the way he approaches the game. He's not a QB that can continually make something from nothing and neither is Alex Smith.

Of course, I might just be completely full of crap, but that's just my 2 cents. Sorry for the long winded-ness.



[ Edited by CalgaryNiner on Jan 8, 2010 at 14:35:44 ]