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Why I am worried about bring back Jimmy Raye

Why not bring in Jim Zorn, look what he did when he was with Seattle, dont think about the Redskins, he is someone that can balance the O and we wouldnt have to worry about him leaving for a long time, but it aint going to happen!
Originally posted by jta854:
Originally posted by D_Niner:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by jta854:
For me personally, that last game was the most frustrating game to watch in a long time. Sing talked all week how he wanted Alex Smith to have a good game so it could be a smoother off season. I expected the 49ers to come out using shot gun and throwing the ball around the field. And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half. I mean seriously, WTF? Regardless of your feelings on Smith, how is he (or any QB) supposed to be successful when he only throws the ball on 3rd and long?

The second half was better, but why not do it the whole game?

Exactly! This proves Raye has ZERO feel for the game AND shows he does not review the opposition's weaknesses - but why would he? We will impose our will on defenses so who needs to study an opponent? The Rams were 27th against the pass and the few times we attacked them resulted in TD's...all in the second half. The Seattle game, we have a PROVEN track record of dominating them on the ground so what does Raye do? He throws the whole game and Gore gets what, 4 carries that game? I just don't know how much Singletary influences Raye but his entire career is the same as our record (8-8) = average. He has PROVEN that all 75 years in the league. I'm not against continuity but even an above average OC could have taken this team to the playoffs no matter WHAT kind of offense was run.

Come on guys... I know you love to hate on a guy just to hate; but, at least give a nod to reality...

Against the Rams in the first 1/2, J-Raye called 13 run plays and 13 pass plays. Alex was sacked 2 times and also had a delay of game penalty that put us in 3rd and long a few times. The O only completed 5 of the 13 pass calls; but, none of those completions were on the deep passes that they attempted.

I don’t hate Ray. I like his philosophy, and I’m happy with the progress. But, he is just so damn stubborn. He seems to be determined to run in on first down, and the other teams know it.
I big part of me is excited that we are finally going to have the same coordinator two years in a row. But another smaller part of me is disappointed that Ray is the coordinator.

Then why post the lies you did above? Here's the actual play calls (pass or run / down & distance) from the game... Please notice that there were 10 first downs 6 of which a run play was called and 4 of them a pass play was called.

Series 1:
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 8
Pass 1st & 10

Run 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 4
Run 1st & 10
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 9


Series 2:
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 18
Pass 3rd and 15

Series 3:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 8
Pass 3rd & 10

Series 4:
Pass 1st & 10
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)

Run 2nd & 17
Alex Delay of game (-5 yards)
Run 3rc & 22

Series 5:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 4
Pass 3rd & 2
Pass 4th & 2


Series 6:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 10
Pass 3rd & 9
Originally posted by REDx85xGOLD:
Why not bring in Jim Zorn, look what he did when he was with Seattle, dont think about the Redskins, he is someone that can balance the O and we wouldnt have to worry about him leaving for a long time, but it aint going to happen!

If and when Mangini gets canned in Cleveland, Zorn will head there to team back up with Holmgren, whether it be as the head coach or OC
Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
My favorite play was against Indy. We were backed up at our own 12 yard line, and it was 3rd and 8. Jimmy called a full back dive with Norris. Great call.

we didnt want to risk a turnover backed up that far. its just playing it safe.
Originally posted by D_Niner:
Then why post the lies you did above? Here's the actual play calls (pass or run / down & distance) from the game... Please notice that there were 10 first downs 6 of which a run play was called and 4 of them a pass play was called.

Series 1:
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 8
Pass 1st & 10

Run 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 4
Run 1st & 10
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 9


Series 2:
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 18
Pass 3rd and 15

Series 3:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 8
Pass 3rd & 10

Series 4:
Pass 1st & 10
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)

Run 2nd & 17
Alex Delay of game (-5 yards)
Run 3rc & 22

Series 5:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 4
Pass 3rd & 2
Pass 4th & 2


Series 6:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 10
Pass 3rd & 9

Thanks D for your thoughts. But I think the point people were making here is the clear lack of preperartion and proper game planning against our opponents as evidenced by zero TD's on the first drive (only team in the NFL), extremely slow starts in the 1st half and defenses EASILY game-planning against us and having a lot of success.

That first half of the Rams game may have been the worst first half I have ever seen esp. against a 1-win team and esp. against a team that was ranked 27th against the pass. Rayegun WOULD have been ideal here. Even the commentators were noting that the RAMS defense was dominating us and appeared to know every play we were running before it was run and that is b/c we are easy to game-plan against and our formations completely give away what we will run; anybody can see, even a wife with no knowledge of football, can "see" what play we are going to run based on how we line up and you can see defenses making the proper adjustments pre-snap. What we also see in your assessment above is constant 3rd and longs d/t obvious runs and predictable play-calling on 1st and 2nd downs. And do screen passes on 3rd and long really count as passes? We had, what, 52 total yards of offense in the first half against a team that was essentially, trying to lock up the #1 pick in the draft? That is downright indefensible.

Fans are not against continuity by any means (look what it has done for the defense) but fans question whether continuity of an average OC (on his best day)
is really what will take us to the next level esp. one that that is entrenched in the run-first mentality of yesteryear. The point of letting Martz go was b/c we were ranked, what 28th and we turned the ball over too much and put our defense against the wall (save for the second half of the year when Hill was inserted into the lilneup and Singletary demanded more balance). Well, guess what? We are ranked 27th now in offense and d/t terrible play-calling, basically lead the league in the worst 3rd down conversion rate and put our defense against the wall...again. Gore was the same player essentially with both coordinators. VD was exceptional as a pass-catcher in Raye's offense but an exceptional run-blocker in Martz's system and Shaun Hill, Morgan and the WR's were exceptional in Martz's system. In short, we gained zero ground and traded individual accomplishments.

To me, Raye has demonstrated that he does not do his homework on the opposition and runs when we should pass and passes when we should run. Sure, balance is key but you attack where the defensive weakness are and you keep defenses on their toes. We don't attack any weaknesses; we just stick to a vanilla game plan with the idea of impossing our will until we are down and HAVE to play to our strengths and pass which still meant we won a couple close ones and lost a lot by 7 points or less; again, average.

How can Staley and Heitmann be good in Martz's system but terrible in Raye's? The injuires pilled up for the entire o-line against 8 and 9-man fronts. Wasn't this a no-brainer?

And we CONTINUE to suck on the road. So what did we truly gain with Raye over Martz? I'm not advocating for Martz by any means, just asking what we actually gained with Raye and what do you truly expect with the continuity of Raye next year? Do you expect we'll go from 27th to 10th suddenly? What is realistic?

What I do advocate for is to get an OC that plays to our team strengths, understands balance, game plans much better, studies the opposition, is rarely out-coached, will be better on the road and who can take advantage of the oppositions weaknesses and attacks those! I just don't see any "upside" with Raye and continuity IMHO won't make THAT much difference at the end of the day save for a few individual achievements traded here and there.

Can you really teach an old dog new tricks?

[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 7, 2010 at 10:04:22 ]
From Barrows:

The 49ers ended the season converting only 30 percent of their third downs. So what was the problem? First, offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye's game plans – especially early in games – were so basic that defensive coordinators easily could counterattack

http://www.sacbee.com/sf49ers/story/2444039.html#mi_rss=49ers

A lot of you scream for continuity as the resolution. Well CONTINUE to go through this next year as well as you defend Alex Smith.
Raye doesn't understand that you need to make a 3rd and manageable situation. Please, no more runs on 2nd and 10 or more yards to go.

I have no problem with a 1st down run, but please, no runs on 2nd and long. It makes the 3rd down so much less manageable.

The NFL is a passing league...even the worst YPA from a QB dwarf YPC of the best RBs. Simply put, we need to pass to setup the run. Smith has got to get better from under center to make our offense truly reach it's full potential.
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
From Barrows:

The 49ers ended the season converting only 30 percent of their third downs. So what was the problem? First, offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye's game plans – especially early in games – were so basic that defensive coordinators easily could counterattack

http://www.sacbee.com/sf49ers/story/2444039.html#mi_rss=49ers

A lot of you scream for continuity as the resolution. Well CONTINUE to go through this next year as well as you defend Alex Smith.

I dont want another year of raye, all you other people are screaming for more of the same..
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
From Barrows:

The 49ers ended the season converting only 30 percent of their third downs. So what was the problem? First, offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye's game plans – especially early in games – were so basic that defensive coordinators easily could counterattack

http://www.sacbee.com/sf49ers/story/2444039.html#mi_rss=49ers

A lot of you scream for continuity as the resolution. Well CONTINUE to go through this next year as well as you defend Alex Smith.

Amen! I'm not sure why fans don't see that. Even if you only watched 2 or 3 games this year, you could "see" that.
Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
We didnt improve on 3rd down as the season went on. We never fixed that problem. It was a problem throughout the entire season. Singletary said stuff like "the players are not executing the plays on 3rd down", but if you ask me, the problem is 3rd down playcalling.


That's what I'm saying like we have to actually go for the first down rather than playing scary football all the time, I'm guessing that's why everyone wants Raye outta here so I understand but he does have great play calls with VD and now Crab....
If we can change that whole mindset on 3rd down of Jimmy Raye's, sure bring him back he's cool for now.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by D_Niner:
Then why post the lies you did above? Here's the actual play calls (pass or run / down & distance) from the game... Please notice that there were 10 first downs 6 of which a run play was called and 4 of them a pass play was called.

Series 1:
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 8
Pass 1st & 10

Run 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 4
Run 1st & 10
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 9


Series 2:
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 18
Pass 3rd and 15

Series 3:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 8
Pass 3rd & 10

Series 4:
Pass 1st & 10
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)

Run 2nd & 17
Alex Delay of game (-5 yards)
Run 3rc & 22

Series 5:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 4
Pass 3rd & 2
Pass 4th & 2


Series 6:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 10
Pass 3rd & 9

Thanks D for your thoughts. But I think the point people were making here is the clear lack of preperartion and proper game planning against our opponents as evidenced by zero TD's on the first drive (only team in the NFL), extremely slow starts in the 1st half and defenses EASILY game-planning against us and having a lot of success.

That first half of the Rams game may have been the worst first half I have ever seen esp. against a 1-win team and esp. against a team that was ranked 27th against the pass. Rayegun WOULD have been ideal here. Even the commentators were noting that the RAMS defense was dominating us and appeared to know every play we were running before it was run and that is b/c we are easy to game-plan against and our formations completely give away what we will run; anybody can see, even a wife with no knowledge of football, can "see" what play we are going to run based on how we line up and you can see defenses making the proper adjustments pre-snap. What we also see in your assessment above is constant 3rd and longs d/t obvious runs and predictable play-calling on 1st and 2nd downs. And do screen passes on 3rd and long really count as passes? We had, what, 52 total yards of offense in the first half against a team that was essentially, trying to lock up the #1 pick in the draft? That is downright indefensible.

Fans are not against continuity by any means (look what it has done for the defense) but fans question whether continuity of an average OC (on his best day)
is really what will take us to the next level esp. one that that is entrenched in the run-first mentality of yesteryear. The point of letting Martz go was b/c we were ranked, what 28th and we turned the ball over too much and put our defense against the wall (save for the second half of the year when Hill was inserted into the lilneup and Singletary demanded more balance). Well, guess what? We are ranked 27th now in offense and d/t terrible play-calling, basically lead the league in the worst 3rd down conversion rate and put our defense against the wall...again. Gore was the same player essentially with both coordinators. VD was exceptional as a pass-catcher in Raye's offense but an exceptional run-blocker in Martz's system and Shaun Hill, Morgan and the WR's were exceptional in Martz's system. In short, we gained zero ground and traded individual accomplishments.

To me, Raye has demonstrated that he does not do his homework on the opposition and runs when we should pass and passes when we should run. Sure, balance is key but you attack where the defensive weakness are and you keep defenses on their toes. We don't attack any weaknesses; we just stick to a vanilla game plan with the idea of impossing our will until we are down and HAVE to play to our strengths and pass which still meant we won a couple close ones and lost a lot by 7 points or less; again, average.

How can Staley and Heitmann be good in Martz's system but terrible in Raye's? The injuires pilled up for the entire o-line against 8 and 9-man fronts. Wasn't this a no-brainer?

And we CONTINUE to suck on the road. So what did we truly gain with Raye over Martz? I'm not advocating for Martz by any means, just asking what we actually gained with Raye and what do you truly expect with the continuity of Raye next year? Do you expect we'll go from 27th to 10th suddenly? What is realistic?

What I do advocate for is to get an OC that plays to our team strengths, understands balance, game plans much better, studies the opposition, is rarely out-coached, will be better on the road and who can take advantage of the oppositions weaknesses and attacks those! I just don't see any "upside" with Raye and continuity IMHO won't make THAT much difference at the end of the day save for a few individual achievements traded here and there.

Can you really teach an old dog new tricks?

Thats much better an argument than your previous one and I sir applaud you for that.

I also think we need to look at what the O did not do to get a better picture of the differences between 08 and 09.

In 08 we had a -17 turnover ratio. In a large part, this was due to the 19 interceptions thrown by our QB's. Another part was the 8 lost fumbles by the QB. Also, this 23rd ranked O averaged 21.2 points per game under Martz.

In 09 we had a +9 turnover ratio. Part of this was made up by 11 less turnovers by the QB position alone. Now you would expect a huge drop off in points for this safe type of football, right? We averaged 20.6 points per game in 09! (that's only 0.6 points per game difference from Martz's high power O)...

Yes we did play more conservative O and the stat sheets show us as 23 total O in 08 and 27 in 09; but, when you look at the total points scored in both years and how many times we turned the ball over, we were much better off this year.

[ Edited by D_Niner on Jan 7, 2010 at 10:34:47 ]
Originally posted by NinerFan408:
Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
My favorite play was against Indy. We were backed up at our own 12 yard line, and it was 3rd and 8. Jimmy called a full back dive with Norris. Great call.

we didnt want to risk a turnover backed up that far. its just playing it safe.


Yes it is, and that kills us because we never are given a chance to keep a drive alive. No matter how far backed up we are, (unless at 1-5 yard line) we have to give Alex some chances and they can't just think he's gonna throw a pick automatically, he's not terrible, but not great either. We gotta give him a chance.
i remember one of the matts indicating that of the nfl teams he talked to they said the niners had the most predictable offense to scheme for in the league. that is not a good thing. i am totally conflicted though about this because of the constant o coordinator turnover. essentially its a moot point. he is coming back. an alex and jimmy offense doesnt dazzle me that is for sure.
Originally posted by SybErkRimInAL:
cuz he's a hard headed moron who doesn't seem to have a creative cell in his half dead brain.

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

I think that at the start of the season the coaching staff believed they could be a run dominant team, led by a QB with a less than stellar arm. That all changed during the season. The run game wasn't up to expectations and the QB was replaced. The focus of the offense turned towards the pass with the addition of Crabtree and the emergence of VD. The pendulum swung back to the middle with the re-discovery of Frank Gore towards the end of the season. The offense was in a constant state of evolution, never really finding it's identity.

With the same basic weapons to work with during the off season and a training camp to help players gel with one another, hopefully JR will see more creative ways to take advantage of player strengths, and will have access to a wider variety of play sets to utilize in game plans. Regardless, this next season will tell the tale one way or another.