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Why I am worried about bring back Jimmy Raye

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
I think bringing him back is a good idea. The only thing we haven't tried is consistency and continuity. We can keep doing this 10 Offensive Coordinators in 10 years or 15 Offensive Coordinators in 15 years but at some point you have to realize that is not going to help our team gel. We have done that now over and over enough to know it's a losing formula.

How about this? We give Alex Smith the same Offensive Coordinator and same system 2 years in a row for the first time in his entire career. Gee what a concept...

Some people want to change everything until we get to the playoffs I guess.
Originally posted by kem99:
The real problem was the 49ers seemed to be in a LOT of 3rd and 7 or more. Whether it was because the running game wasn't working early or a knocked down or dropped pass or a sack or whatever, more often than not they seemed to be in more 3rd and longs than the other team. Part of the original plan was that with Gore running the ball early, they would be in more 3rd and 3 or less, which would lead to more 3rd down conversions, more TOP, winning the field position battle, etc. Obviously they need to be better on 3rd down but that may come if they can be better on 1st and 2nd down.

Good Post!
As pedantic as Raye was with most of this year's playcalling, we were seriously limited by the lack of O-Line play/cohesion.

First, we fix the OL and then judge Raye. At worst, we have already seen as bland a playcaller he has been with our currently limited talent.

Say we add Anthony Davis/Trent Williams onto ROT and Iupati as an OG ... then we can sit back and see how much better that gets the playcalling.
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
I think bringing him back is a good idea. The only thing we haven't tried is consistency and continuity. We can keep doing this 10 Offensive Coordinators in 10 years or 15 Offensive Coordinators in 15 years but at some point you have to realize that is not going to help our team gel. We have done that now over and over enough to know it's a losing formula.

How about this? We give Alex Smith the same Offensive Coordinator and same system 2 years in a row for the first time in his entire career. Gee what a concept...

Agreed
Originally posted by valrod33:
Originally posted by SybErkRimInAL:
cuz he's a hard headed moron who doesn't seem to have a creative cell in his half dead brain.

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

i beg to differ, yes he needs a lot of work but what about the 4th down calls he has made, like the long passes to Gore and VD on 4th and short , those were some damn good play calls

actually, those calls are the ones that make me think he's legally insane. Sure they worked, but WTF!?
  • Antix
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 4,071
Fix the line and our offense will be set.
Originally posted by Antix:
Fix the line and our offense will be set.

Easy to say.

The Niners have been in the bottom 10 offense for over 5 years straight now.
Originally posted by jta854:
For me personally, that last game was the most frustrating game to watch in a long time. Sing talked all week how he wanted Alex Smith to have a good game so it could be a smoother off season. I expected the 49ers to come out using shot gun and throwing the ball around the field. And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half. I mean seriously, WTF? Regardless of your feelings on Smith, how is he (or any QB) supposed to be successful when he only throws the ball on 3rd and long?

The second half was better, but why not do it the whole game?

Exactly! This proves Raye has ZERO feel for the game AND shows he does not review the opposition's weaknesses - but why would he? We will impose our will on defenses so who needs to study an opponent? The Rams were 27th against the pass and the few times we attacked them resulted in TD's...all in the second half. The Seattle game, we have a PROVEN track record of dominating them on the ground so what does Raye do? He throws the whole game and Gore gets what, 4 carries that game? I just don't know how much Singletary influences Raye but his entire career is the same as our record (8-8) = average. He has PROVEN that all 75 years in the league. I'm not against continuity but even an above average OC could have taken this team to the playoffs no matter WHAT kind of offense was run.

And I don't buy the "fix the o-line and the offense will be better" b/c Raye will still be calling the plays and defenses had ZERO problems game-planning against his predictable play-calling.

Has anyone considered that perhaps the o-line looks terrible this year BECAUSE of the play-calling? Staley, our best o-linemen looked like garbage, Heitmann, just as bad - teams were stacking the box with 9 men and run blitzing up the middle and our whole line got BEAT TO HELL and suffered injuries all year, a shot to their growth and development AND confidence! It constantly put the line out on a plank and in turn, destroyed Hill and Smith, created 3rd and longs and even hurt our defense! If you take any of our o-linemen and put them on a better team with a better OC, would they really be as bad as we were collectively? Dahl, Smiley, etc.

Again, I don't know how much is stubborn philosophy or an inability to run a modern day offense but either way, Singletary seems to be tied to Raye and likewise. The botton line is, Raye was NOT an improvement over Martz save for a couple individual achievements. Period.

[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 6, 2010 at 15:54:08 ]
  • BigRon
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,778
3rd down was not our problem. 1st was. But I have no fears about bringing Raye back. I would be more concerned if we didn't.
So how many of you guys complaining about Raye have ever called a game outside of Madden? How many of you are aware of the injuries to the offensive line and how that can dramatically effect the offense? Raye has been in the NFL for 33 years, longer than alot of you have been alive,and yet you know how to run an offense better than he does? You do not get to keep working in a field if you know less about it than a webzone poster.

To answer the OP's question...maybe because you do not fully comprehend what went on behind the scenes this year.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by jta854:
For me personally, that last game was the most frustrating game to watch in a long time. Sing talked all week how he wanted Alex Smith to have a good game so it could be a smoother off season. I expected the 49ers to come out using shot gun and throwing the ball around the field. And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half. I mean seriously, WTF? Regardless of your feelings on Smith, how is he (or any QB) supposed to be successful when he only throws the ball on 3rd and long?

The second half was better, but why not do it the whole game?

Exactly! This proves Raye has ZERO feel for the game AND shows he does not review the opposition's weaknesses - but why would he? We will impose our will on defenses so who needs to study an opponent? The Rams were 27th against the pass and the few times we attacked them resulted in TD's...all in the second half. The Seattle game, we have a PROVEN track record of dominating them on the ground so what does Raye do? He throws the whole game and Gore gets what, 4 carries that game? I just don't know how much Singletary influences Raye but his entire career is the same as our record (8-8) = average. He has PROVEN that all 75 years in the league. I'm not against continuity but even an above average OC could have taken this team to the playoffs no matter WHAT kind of offense was run.

Come on guys... I know you love to hate on a guy just to hate; but, at least give a nod to reality...

Against the Rams in the first 1/2, J-Raye called 13 run plays and 13 pass plays. Alex was sacked 2 times and also had a delay of game penalty that put us in 3rd and long a few times. The O only completed 5 of the 13 pass calls; but, none of those completions were on the deep passes that they attempted.
Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
Originally posted by D_Niner:
Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
We didnt improve on 3rd down as the season went on. We never fixed that problem. It was a problem throughout the entire season. Singletary said stuff like "the players are not executing the plays on 3rd down", but if you ask me, the problem is 3rd down playcalling.

It's hard to have 3000 packages for 3rd and long. We need to fix the line so that we can gain some ground on First down run plays... That way we can get into 2nd or 3rd and short.

A little imagination on 1st and 2nd down wouldn't hurt either. Maybe with an offseason with the same receivers, QB and OC they can work on that.

Exactly
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
So how many of you guys complaining about Raye have ever called a game outside of Madden? How many of you are aware of the injuries to the offensive line and how that can dramatically effect the offense? Raye has been in the NFL for 33 years, longer than alot of you have been alive,and yet you know how to run an offense better than he does? You do not get to keep working in a field if you know less about it than a webzone poster.

To answer the OP's question...maybe because you do not fully comprehend what went on behind the scenes this year.

I agree with you.

My complaint however about Raye is some of the 3rd down playcalls. A couple times he had me convinced he was off his rocker. If we were 3rd and 8 he would call a 5 yard pass play with lateral momentum. I can understand gaining back some field position on 3rd and 15, but shotgun draws became utterly predictable after the 4th game of the year, usually good for about 4-5 yards.

Other than that I think he did some really good things........enough anyway to retain his position. I fully agree with 9fA that I wouldn't mind seeing what Johnson could do with strictly playcalling duties, while Raye remains as coordinator.
I've coined a new adage: "Success is the handmaiden of continuity."

If you are successful, you will be retained. Perhaps it is not continuity the breeds success, but rather that success breeds continuity.

Actually, it makes sense that operating in the same system with the same personnel over a long time produces consistent success. Familiarity based on repetition led to solid execution. This is why Walsh insisted on repetition.

However, poor playing calling will not be entirely overcome by repetition or continuity. Smart play calling is essential. During parts of so many of our games, the template seemed to be run on first for no gain. Run on 2nd and ten for a one yard gain, then pass on third and nine. Then either a penalty or extreme pressure from a blitz. Incomplete or complete for an eight yard gain. Punt.
Originally posted by D_Niner:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by jta854:
For me personally, that last game was the most frustrating game to watch in a long time. Sing talked all week how he wanted Alex Smith to have a good game so it could be a smoother off season. I expected the 49ers to come out using shot gun and throwing the ball around the field. And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half. I mean seriously, WTF? Regardless of your feelings on Smith, how is he (or any QB) supposed to be successful when he only throws the ball on 3rd and long?

The second half was better, but why not do it the whole game?

Exactly! This proves Raye has ZERO feel for the game AND shows he does not review the opposition's weaknesses - but why would he? We will impose our will on defenses so who needs to study an opponent? The Rams were 27th against the pass and the few times we attacked them resulted in TD's...all in the second half. The Seattle game, we have a PROVEN track record of dominating them on the ground so what does Raye do? He throws the whole game and Gore gets what, 4 carries that game? I just don't know how much Singletary influences Raye but his entire career is the same as our record (8-8) = average. He has PROVEN that all 75 years in the league. I'm not against continuity but even an above average OC could have taken this team to the playoffs no matter WHAT kind of offense was run.

Come on guys... I know you love to hate on a guy just to hate; but, at least give a nod to reality...

Against the Rams in the first 1/2, J-Raye called 13 run plays and 13 pass plays. Alex was sacked 2 times and also had a delay of game penalty that put us in 3rd and long a few times. The O only completed 5 of the 13 pass calls; but, none of those completions were on the deep passes that they attempted.

I don’t hate Ray. I like his philosophy, and I’m happy with the progress. But, he is just so damn stubborn. He seems to be determined to run in on first down, and the other teams know it.
I big part of me is excited that we are finally going to have the same coordinator two years in a row. But another smaller part of me is disappointed that Ray is the coordinator.
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