Stepping Up In The Pocket ....

i did not get to watch the game except for on myu lunch around 2:15. just before the samuel INT.

there was a gap there to step up, but smith rightfully had no confidence to use it, because chilo rachal was looking smith in the eye while rachal's man was still behind him. is he going to become the offensive version TBC?

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Did anyone watch the Steelers and Packers later that night?

If so, then you probably saw the last play where the Steelers scored a TD with no time left on the clock. If you saw that, then you would notice that crashface Roethlisberger had around 5-7 seconds to find that receiver. When was the last time you saw that kind of blocking for a niner QB?

Never. Even when they rush 3 it seems like Smith has to force a f**king pass. lol

Originally posted by Afrikan:

a perfect example was that one deep pass to Crabtree on 4th down...the one where it was an PI....... what he should have did was run for the first down...it was right there in front of him....but he threw it deep for some reason... Crabs is not a burner.....first I was like "OMG the first down is right there...RUN RUN RUNNNNNNN" then he threw it and i'm like WhereTF is he throwing it
..... we got lucky with that PI because it was under thrown.

I disagree. I thought that was a smart play. It seemed as though Smith KNEW that he could run for the first, but motioned Crabs to go deep to try to hit the home run. The pass looked good and Crabs would have caught it (and still nearly did) despite the PI.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
I'm straddling the fence here. I don't know. Alex looked lost yesterday. It just seemed like he didn't know what was going on out there - what the defense was doing. When that happens, he gets that deer-in-the-headlights look. That's what I saw yesterday.

You're never going to have the perfect situation ever, and teams that do are able to get to the big dance. I absolutely think the OL is just horrible and I attribute one turnover to poor pass protection. However the throw to Davis was overthrown - clearly. Yes Davis could have helped, but the ball was overthrown.

Smith confuses me sometimes and seems like he doesn't understand the difference between trying to "make" a play and "smart" play. He'll tend to lock-on to one target and look all the way giving the safety enough time to get over. Smith rarely looks off the coverage at the snap of the ball and immediately come over to his quick read. Oftentimes he'll just float to the check down.

He's still pretty raw to me and still hasn't learned this part of the game. I'm wondering if he's getting proper coaching again because in this day and age, you can't constantly throw against defenses without looking off coverage. I really believe this is why our WRs don't "appear" open.

I'm a Smith supporter and don't think he "sucks" I just think he needs a QB camp where he's taught how to move secondary players with his body language (ala Brees and Young).

Thoughts.

.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Did anyone watch the Steelers and Packers later that night?

If so, then you probably saw the last play where the Steelers scored a TD with no time left on the clock. If you saw that, then you would notice that crashface Roethlisberger had around 5-7 seconds to find that receiver. When was the last time you saw that kind of blocking for a niner QB?

Yes but Ben moves around. He just doesn't stand behind center. He's the pump-fake MASTER of the NFL. He an Peyton Manning run the NFL Pump-Fake School for QBs.

Watch the play again. He didnt move like he normally does. He dropped back, looked right, slid left, and stood there staring down the WR he finally threw to. Had ALL day because of his line.

No QB in the league has all day to throw consistently. I just dont see the pocket presence, consistent accuracy, leadership or play making that I would like to see from Alex nor Shaun Hill for that matter. I'm not going to blame the o-line for every single sack or attempted roll to the right to avoid pressure that we have seen lately. There are many times when a QB has to step up and deliver even in the face of a rush and be willing to take the hit. People want the o-line to perform miracles just to pretend that nothing is ever Alex Smith's fault. Is our line great? HELL NO but are they as bad as advertised on the zone? HELL NO. I dont think Alex sucks but what I've seen over 5 years leads me to believe he isnt near elite status when it comes to QB's in the NFL. Subtle things that good QBs do are rare for Alex and the majority of QB's we have had the last 6 years. Forget pass rushers, cornerbacks, new stadiums and project defensive linemen etc etc my biggest wish for this team is to find a franchise QB. Immediately

Originally posted by hubbyt:
No QB in the league has all day to throw consistently. I just dont see the pocket presence, consistent accuracy, leadership or play making that I would like to see from Alex nor Shaun Hill for that matter. I'm not going to blame the o-line for every single sack or attempted roll to the right to avoid pressure that we have seen lately. There are many times when a QB has to step up and deliver even in the face of a rush and be willing to take the hit. People want the o-line to perform miracles just to pretend that nothing is ever Alex Smith's fault. Is our line great? HELL NO but are they as bad as advertised on the zone? HELL NO. I dont think Alex sucks but what I've seen over 5 years leads me to believe he isnt near elite status when it comes to QB's in the NFL. Subtle things that good QBs do are rare for Alex and the majority of QB's we have had the last 6 years. Forget pass rushers, cornerbacks, new stadiums and project defensive linemen etc etc my biggest wish for this team is to find a franchise QB. Immediately

you can't step up into a pocket that isn't there.

Originally posted by hubbyt:
Why doesnt Alex Smith ever step up into the pocket and let the pass rushers run themselves out of the play? I always see Manning, Brees, Rivers, Rothlisberger etc etc do this. It seems to work quite well. Pass rushers are so eager to get to the QB they will run themselves right by him 50% of the time at least if he could step up into the arc built by the o-line. Against the Eagles it was very noticeable how most of their pressure came from Alex's left side or at least it seemed that way because he rolled right every time to try to get away. We were 0-11 on third downs and I'm thinking he did this on every single one of them. II honestly dont feel we have the coaching in place to teach him how to play the position or even teach our guys about blitz pickup. Frank Gore or someone shouldve been chipping to the left side at some point to help out. Alex said the Eagles did unique stuff. Lets be real. Jimmy Raye is 70 years old he should've seen it all by now and have a clue on how to adjust. The Eagles did not do anything exotic they simply brought the house and dared us to beat them which we could not. Alot of it is instincts but by gosh yesterday was painful. People that dont even follow football can sense problems. My wife watched the game with me and simply said to me "babe yal need a new QB". She didnt make any excuse or qualms about her statement. I wanted to defend him but all I could say was yeah your right ...

I was thinking the same thing with regard to stepping up in the pocket.

Also why doesnt Alex dump off to the back if receivers are covered downfield?

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
I'm straddling the fence here. I don't know. Alex looked lost yesterday. It just seemed like he didn't know what was going on out there - what the defense was doing. When that happens, he gets that deer-in-the-headlights look. That's what I saw yesterday.

You're never going to have the perfect situation ever, and teams that do are able to get to the big dance. I absolutely think the OL is just horrible and I attribute one turnover to poor pass protection. However the throw to Davis was overthrown - clearly. Yes Davis could have helped, but the ball was overthrown.

Smith confuses me sometimes and seems like he doesn't understand the difference between trying to "make" a play and "smart" play. He'll tend to lock-on to one target and look all the way giving the safety enough time to get over. Smith rarely looks off the coverage at the snap of the ball and immediately come over to his quick read. Oftentimes he'll just float to the check down.

He's still pretty raw to me and still hasn't learned this part of the game. I'm wondering if he's getting proper coaching again because in this day and age, you can't constantly throw against defenses without looking off coverage. I really believe this is why our WRs don't "appear" open.

I'm a Smith supporter and don't think he "sucks" I just think he needs a QB camp where he's taught how to move secondary players with his body language (ala Brees and Young).

Thoughts.

IMO the biggest part of the problem lies with Smith because:
1) his lack of the basic instincts essential to the qb position are lacking. Feeling the passrush, moving in the pocket accordingly to buy time (something McNabb did very well when his protection broke down last game) and peripheral vision are not things that can be practiced and perfected. All qb's have to slide one way or another on most pass plays and the qb's that are good at it do it so subtly you don't notice it.
2) the offense has been "dummied down" for Alex because his comfort zone is so small that he can't funtion otherwise. The result of a minimalized offensive gameplan allows defenses to easily guess whats coming by personnel and formation. This is a major reason db's are always seemingly next to our wr's even when Alex has time.
3) his locking onto receivers is the biggest tell to db's of all. This coupled with a lack of peripheral vision equals lots of tipped balls which we see too many times.
4) his lack of leadership. At some point all good/great qb's take on the responsiblity of making themselves and players around them accountable and taking them to task if they fail(Peyton does it well now like Joe, Ronnie and Jerry back in the day which is what made those teams great). Players respect and respond to it and make big plays for you if they see great leadership.

I still believe Alex will improve in all those areas. Give him time, how long has Donovan been in the league?

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Did anyone watch the Steelers and Packers later that night?

If so, then you probably saw the last play where the Steelers scored a TD with no time left on the clock. If you saw that, then you would notice that crashface Roethlisberger had around 5-7 seconds to find that receiver. When was the last time you saw that kind of blocking for a niner QB?

Yes but Ben moves around. He just doesn't stand behind center. He's the pump-fake MASTER of the NFL. He an Peyton Manning run the NFL Pump-Fake School for QBs.

Watch the play again. He didnt move like he normally does. He dropped back, looked right, slid left, and stood there staring down the WR he finally threw to. Had ALL day because of his line.

Yes on one play. I meant in my earlier post and should have been clearer - Ben generally moves around and pump fakes a ton. the Steelers are yet again like their Super Bowl season, gave up a ton of sacks.

your statement is contradictory. The QB can't pump fake and do all the things you stated with out protection from his QB. Rothlisberger gets sacked a lot because he holds onto the ball forever!

He's been much better about that this season. You are overreacting to his actions against the Eagles. Also, on the 4th down sack, he stepped up into the pocket and it got him sacked.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Did anyone watch the Steelers and Packers later that night?

If so, then you probably saw the last play where the Steelers scored a TD with no time left on the clock. If you saw that, then you would notice that crashface Roethlisberger had around 5-7 seconds to find that receiver. When was the last time you saw that kind of blocking for a niner QB?

Yes but Ben moves around. He just doesn't stand behind center. He's the pump-fake MASTER of the NFL. He an Peyton Manning run the NFL Pump-Fake School for QBs.

Watch the play again. He didnt move like he normally does. He dropped back, looked right, slid left, and stood there staring down the WR he finally threw to. Had ALL day because of his line.

Yes on one play. I meant in my earlier post and should have been clearer - Ben generally moves around and pump fakes a ton. the Steelers are yet again like their Super Bowl season, gave up a ton of sacks.

your statement is contradictory. The QB can't pump fake and do all the things you stated with out protection from his QB. Rothlisberger gets sacked a lot because he holds onto the ball forever!

This is absolutely not true. You assume that no protection immediately means a sack, and that simply isn't so. We are talking about pressure and how to evade it - stepping up in the pocket. That presumes pressure awareness - sidestepping the pressure, or running around some to open things up to extend the play. Garcia didn't have excellent protection either but he extended the play with his legs. You can run around and pumpfake without being provided 6 seconds to drop back, scan, read and throw.

Yes Roth gets sacked a lot because of this but he also has won a SB because he can extend plays with his legs. Sketchy protection and scrambling or pump-faking are not mutually exclusive.

Again, I'm not saying Alex is terrible. I just think he needs more snaps. He doesn't yet excel at moving players in the secondary with his eyes. I'm not attacking Alex - but saying that we cannot level ANY criticism is just as unreasonable/irrational as those who don't like him on baseless reasons.

where did I say that no protection means a sack?? no protection means a broken play because it doesn't allow the QB to read the defense and it doesn't allow the play to develop. Smith can't step up in the pocket because majority of the time there is no pocket to begin with. When you have Baas and Chilo allowing defenders to just breeze by them and combine that with Snyder getting beat repeatedly there is no pocket to step up into. I agree that Smith needs to learn how to move defenders with his eyes. It will come with time.

Originally posted by backontop:
because when he steps up in the pocket he is just stepping into a defender. Have you not noticed Baas's and Rachal's ability to block?

or lack of blocking.

teams know what our weakness is on our line, and it's the interior (not so much heitmann). they blitz up the middle. how are you gonna step up in the pocket with defenders coming up the middle? however, it has been pointed out that smith does tend to scramble/scoot to his right when pressure is coming-no matter where it is coming from. he needs better awareness as to where the pressure is coming from and go opposite of it. get away from the rush-and just enough to make a play.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Did anyone watch the Steelers and Packers later that night?

If so, then you probably saw the last play where the Steelers scored a TD with no time left on the clock. If you saw that, then you would notice that crashface Roethlisberger had around 5-7 seconds to find that receiver. When was the last time you saw that kind of blocking for a niner QB?

Yes but Ben moves around. He just doesn't stand behind center. He's the pump-fake MASTER of the NFL. He an Peyton Manning run the NFL Pump-Fake School for QBs.

Watch the play again. He didnt move like he normally does. He dropped back, looked right, slid left, and stood there staring down the WR he finally threw to. Had ALL day because of his line.

Yes on one play. I meant in my earlier post and should have been clearer - Ben generally moves around and pump fakes a ton. the Steelers are yet again like their Super Bowl season, gave up a ton of sacks.

your statement is contradictory. The QB can't pump fake and do all the things you stated with out protection from his QB. Rothlisberger gets sacked a lot because he holds onto the ball forever!

This is absolutely not true. You assume that no protection immediately means a sack, and that simply isn't so. We are talking about pressure and how to evade it - stepping up in the pocket. That presumes pressure awareness - sidestepping the pressure, or running around some to open things up to extend the play. Garcia didn't have excellent protection either but he extended the play with his legs. You can run around and pumpfake without being provided 6 seconds to drop back, scan, read and throw.

Yes Roth gets sacked a lot because of this but he also has won a SB because he can extend plays with his legs. Sketchy protection and scrambling or pump-faking are not mutually exclusive.

Again, I'm not saying Alex is terrible. I just think he needs more snaps. He doesn't yet excel at moving players in the secondary with his eyes. I'm not attacking Alex - but saying that we cannot level ANY criticism is just as unreasonable/irrational as those who don't like him on baseless reasons.

where did I say that no protection means a sack?? no protection means a broken play because it doesn't allow the QB to read the defense and it doesn't allow the play to develop. Smith can't step up in the pocket because majority of the time there is no pocket to begin with. When you have Baas and Chilo allowing defenders to just breeze by them and combine that with Snyder getting beat repeatedly there is no pocket to step up into. I agree that Smith needs to learn how to move defenders with his eyes. It will come with time.

Again, this isn't always true. Yes, Rachal and Baas are terrible. I've been one of their most vocal critics. And yes a good number of times the pocket collapses - I want those two OGs replaced as much as anyone, not to mention Forester gone (which I've been saying since pre-season).

However, QBs can read defense before they snap the ball. This particularly important when you're throwing short - understanding where the blitz is coming from and audible protection to that side of the OL (as if we could pick it up any right?) - but at least try. There were times in this game and in others where Alex locks on to his 1st option, probably because he usually doesn't have as much time. Again my only argument here is that he has to understand the entire field even in the heat of a rush, and fight his tendency to always roll-out right - particularity to Snyder's side of the field.

Whether it's step up or step left, but just get better at understanding where the heat is coming. This does come with time, but it's something you can ask him to do to become a better QB. There's nothing at all wrong with that criticism. I'm rooting for Alex because I've always thought he can do it - I just feel there are areas he can improve. This is one of them.

you can't predict your OLine collapsing on you no matter how great you are at reading a defense. In reading a defense all you can do is hope that you can see what the defense is going to do. What player is going to blitz and what type of defense they are running. You are correct and I agree with you that Smith needs to improve on reading defenses. the guy hasn't played in 2 years so it will take him a bit to get back into playing and reading defenses. The Oline needs to block their guy no matter what. The only players that should be left on the OLine should be Heitman and maybe Staley. The rest have to go and the OLine coach can catch a bus out of town as well.

Originally posted by hubbyt:
Why doesnt Alex Smith ever step up into the pocket and let the pass rushers run themselves out of the play? I always see Manning, Brees, Rivers, Rothlisberger etc etc do this. It seems to work quite well. Pass rushers are so eager to get to the QB they will run themselves right by him 50% of the time at least if he could step up into the arc built by the o-line. Against the Eagles it was very noticeable how most of their pressure came from Alex's left side or at least it seemed that way because he rolled right every time to try to get away. We were 0-11 on third downs and I'm thinking he did this on every single one of them. II honestly dont feel we have the coaching in place to teach him how to play the position or even teach our guys about blitz pickup. Frank Gore or someone shouldve been chipping to the left side at some point to help out. Alex said the Eagles did unique stuff. Lets be real. Jimmy Raye is 70 years old he should've seen it all by now and have a clue on how to adjust. The Eagles did not do anything exotic they simply brought the house and dared us to beat them which we could not. Alot of it is instincts but by gosh yesterday was painful. People that dont even follow football can sense problems. My wife watched the game with me and simply said to me "babe yal need a new QB". She didnt make any excuse or qualms about her statement. I wanted to defend him but all I could say was yeah your right ...

I have been saying this all year. He has a terrible habit of rolling to his right when he feel pressure. Even if all the receivers are to the left. Part of what makes Smith not a good QB.