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WTF? Is This True?

Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,957
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.

I support krizay to an extent. It has a ceiling similar to top speed. Alex will NEVER be as accurate as Breese or Montana no different than Elway was never able to completely be accurate. A QB would need to change his throwing motion in order to get that elite level of accuracy and we all know that's the last thing you want to do at this stage.
Vernon's numbers don't look as impressive because whenever we see receiving stats, we think TO, or Rice or WR's and don't have the top TE numbers in the memory bank.
Originally posted by kstolai:
Originally posted by King49er:
yes
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.

I support krizay to an extent. It has a ceiling similar to top speed. Alex will NEVER be as accurate as Breese or Montana no different than Elway was never able to completely be accurate. A QB would need to change his throwing motion in order to get that elite level of accuracy and we all know that's the last thing you want to do at this stage.

The facts say otherwise.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,957
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.

I support krizay to an extent. It has a ceiling similar to top speed. Alex will NEVER be as accurate as Breese or Montana no different than Elway was never able to completely be accurate. A QB would need to change his throwing motion in order to get that elite level of accuracy and we all know that's the last thing you want to do at this stage.

The facts say otherwise.

What you see is players making better decisions or having a better connection with the receivers. You don't see improved accuracy per se. You see better decision making.

If you make better decisions and throw it to a more open receiver or just take the safe throw. Your inaccuracies look minor compared to trying to fit a ball in to a tightly covered Receiver while still throwing inaccurate.

If accuracy could be taught there wouldn't be so much bad QB play in the NFL.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.

I support krizay to an extent. It has a ceiling similar to top speed. Alex will NEVER be as accurate as Breese or Montana no different than Elway was never able to completely be accurate. A QB would need to change his throwing motion in order to get that elite level of accuracy and we all know that's the last thing you want to do at this stage.

The facts say otherwise.

What you see is players making better decisions or having a better connection with the receivers. You don't see improved accuracy per se. You see better decision making.

If you make better decisions and throw it to a more open receiver or just take the safe throw. Your inaccuracies look minor compared to trying to fit a ball in to a tightly covered Receiver while still throwing inaccurate.

If accuracy could be taught there wouldn't be so much bad QB play in the NFL.

Obviously you have never had to teach a young boy how to piss in a toilet standing up. Accuracy can be taught, trust me. I've done it...

Now I do agree that the are limitations that may prevent someone from improving their accuracy. Things like depth perception, arm strength, velocity, understanding of trajectory, throwing motion, etc... but basic accuracy (to a level) can be taught...
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,957
Originally posted by D_Niner:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.

I support krizay to an extent. It has a ceiling similar to top speed. Alex will NEVER be as accurate as Breese or Montana no different than Elway was never able to completely be accurate. A QB would need to change his throwing motion in order to get that elite level of accuracy and we all know that's the last thing you want to do at this stage.

The facts say otherwise.

What you see is players making better decisions or having a better connection with the receivers. You don't see improved accuracy per se. You see better decision making.

If you make better decisions and throw it to a more open receiver or just take the safe throw. Your inaccuracies look minor compared to trying to fit a ball in to a tightly covered Receiver while still throwing inaccurate.

If accuracy could be taught there wouldn't be so much bad QB play in the NFL.

Obviously you have never had to teach a young boy how to piss in a toilet standing up. Accuracy can be taught, trust me. I've done it...

Now I do agree that the are limitations that may prevent someone from improving their accuracy. Things like depth perception, arm strength, velocity, understanding of trajectory, throwing motion, etc... but basic accuracy (to a level) can be taught...

Actually i'm in the process of helping/working with a high school Junior on becoming a better QB.

Which my biggest task now is trying to teach him that throwing every pass hard and throwing deep all the time doesn't make you a good QB. Like he seems to think.

I'm teaching him now about ball placement and things of that nature. So I agree that it can be taught to a point. But that point doesn't extend to an NFL player. They are going to go with what got them there.

You have to figure in the pros they are throwing how many passes a day? If you haven't gotten it after throwing all them balls everyday for 5+ years you're not going to get it. Imperfect practice gets you imperfect results. Take Brees and Manning for example. If they throw a bad pass in practice they get upset. They try to practice perfect. It shows up on gameday. If you haven't held yourself to that standard at this point. It's too late.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.

I support krizay to an extent. It has a ceiling similar to top speed. Alex will NEVER be as accurate as Breese or Montana no different than Elway was never able to completely be accurate. A QB would need to change his throwing motion in order to get that elite level of accuracy and we all know that's the last thing you want to do at this stage.

The facts say otherwise.

What you see is players making better decisions or having a better connection with the receivers. You don't see improved accuracy per se. You see better decision making.

If you make better decisions and throw it to a more open receiver or just take the safe throw. Your inaccuracies look minor compared to trying to fit a ball in to a tightly covered Receiver while still throwing inaccurate.

If accuracy could be taught there wouldn't be so much bad QB play in the NFL.

I taught my nephew to be more accurate throwing the football by helping him with his mechanics and release point. The main reason for bad QB play in the NFL is bad quarterbacks.
Originally posted by ClassicNiner:
Krizay is right. Vernon isn't that good. Footballoutsiders.com has him ranked 7th right now, behind Gates, Clark, Shiancoe, Gonzalez, Watson and Whitten. That is using their arcane statistic DYAR (defensive-adjusted yards above replacement). His catch rate is 61%, below that of any of these others. Catch rate is of course partly QB dependent. Vernon still false starts way too often, and this kills drives. His best stat is TD's, which I guess is a good stat to have.



Vernon Davis drops too many balls and has way too many penalties... no doubt about it.

But I choose to equate Vernon's performance this season with the following...

Fact number one: he has the most catches and receiving yards on our very average team.

Fact number two: he leads the NFL in receiving touchdowns despite starting two quarterbacks. One being a noodle armed, dead duck tossing, career backup.

Fact number three: he's on pace to gain 1000 yards this season. Something that hasn't been easy for any receiver on this admittedly average team the last few years, much less a tight end.


You, for whatever reason, are basing his performance with an admittedly "arcane statistic".
I'm basing it on his Pro Bowl numbers.

Despite the fact that your so-called "statistic" supports your claim that Vernon isn't very good, I think that the statistics I provided more than prove otherwise.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
If he reaches 1000+ and 14 TDs, setting the NFL and franchise records.. well.. Krizay, who I'm sure already realizes by now how worth it it was to make the Vernon pick over any other player at that spot, will be able to fully accept that fact.

"It's not about the numbers"

Were you the guy in the other thread that said accuracy can't be taught?

I stand by the accuracy comment.

Your prerogative, but it is a totally ignorant position to try and defend. Too many examples of guys getting better at it for it to hold water. If there is something I am missing about your point of view, please explain.

I support krizay to an extent. It has a ceiling similar to top speed. Alex will NEVER be as accurate as Breese or Montana no different than Elway was never able to completely be accurate. A QB would need to change his throwing motion in order to get that elite level of accuracy and we all know that's the last thing you want to do at this stage.

The facts say otherwise.

What you see is players making better decisions or having a better connection with the receivers. You don't see improved accuracy per se. You see better decision making.

If you make better decisions and throw it to a more open receiver or just take the safe throw. Your inaccuracies look minor compared to trying to fit a ball in to a tightly covered Receiver while still throwing inaccurate.

If accuracy could be taught there wouldn't be so much bad QB play in the NFL.

So how do really know if 'said qb' was ever 'inaccurate' then? One could just chalk it up to bad decisions and poor connections with recievers.

Point is it's a neverending debate. Fans can never really know without knowledge of specific plays if the QB is inaccurate or the reciever f'd up his route, unless it's blatently obvious ala Brady Quinn throwing a 'go' route 10 yards out of bounds.

If a reciever made his break a half step early and the QB's release timing is perfect, the ball would end up behind the reciever and every armchair QB is saying that the QB has no accuracy. It can also work both ways. Without intimate knowledge of the QB timing and reciever breaks on any particular play one cannot objectively assess whether the ball has been thrown accurately.

Now if you're talking about broken plays, or short yardage pass plays, then that's a different story, but even still it's hard from our standpoint to judge accuracy then either. That's for a QB coach with knowledge of a playbook to judge, not fans watching on TV or in stands during games.

[ Edited by AXEGRINDER on Dec 18, 2009 at 20:09:33 ]
Originally posted by ClassicNiner:
Originally posted by Antix:
You guys are hilarious.

Dude is about to set an NFL record and "he's not that good".

Don't get me wrong, I was and still am a big Davis criticizer. I still don't believe he can make the great catch, the tough catch in the clutch to win a game, but he is still playing the best football of any TE in the league this year.

I can understand being tough on a guy but damn, this is ridiculous. Don't just slay the guy because that's been your M-O for the last 4 years despite obvious evidence to the contrary.

Don't get me wrong - I love Vernon. I think he has the potential to be a great TE some day. I just don't think he's there yet. But he is still improving, and that's a positive sign.

see... that's the crazy thing about this. Vernon is not that good, yet he is about to set the TD records for TE's. I personally do not believe vernon is "great" yet. I still think he can do a lot better than what he has done so far. if he reduces the dropped balls, I think he would be considered great. but even for just being "good" he is about to match/set the TE TD record.
Originally posted by stevenking57:
"The 49ers leading receiver, tight end Vernon Davis needs three touchdowns in the final three games to have the most single-season touchdowns by a tight end in NFL history. He also needs just 11 yards to have the best single-season yardage total by a tight end in franchise history, passing the 825 yards Eric Johnson totaled in 2004."
I knew he was having a great season, but I didn't know that he could set an NFL record. I guess he's finally able to live up to his potential. It's hard to believe that one game two years ago he was held in to block all but one time and last year Martz really didn't like to use tight ends. I know that Raye has critics, BUT he knows how to use Davis and I think he's done a good job using Smith and Gore too. Given freedom from Sing, Raye may be a better O.C. than I ever thought.

Minus the fact Gore hasn't gotten enough carries, Raye's done a decent job.