Almost all of that is your opinion. You think something needs to be done? Submit your resume, see if the Niners Organization can pass up your obvious and extensive football acumen.
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This team is close but a STUPID ORGANIZATION.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM
- PA9erFaithful
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Dec 8, 2009 at 3:03 PM
- darkknight49
- Veteran
- Posts: 10,878
Dunno man, i gotta agree with SD on some of those points. I never understood the mooch firing. That was totally silly. Never got nolan and wanting to put a spread QB in immediately. Smith should have never played that first season.
Game management has been horrible. Don't think anyone can disagree.
While sing is unprven, he has shown he's willing to change and adapt; nolan never did.
And I think Jed will be fine; at least he cares.
Game management has been horrible. Don't think anyone can disagree.
While sing is unprven, he has shown he's willing to change and adapt; nolan never did.
And I think Jed will be fine; at least he cares.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:07 PM
- SanDiego49er
- Veteran
- Posts: 47,923
Originally posted by mcbaes72:
Those are some strong arguments and I agree with most...especially keeping Smith as a starter (and I used to be a Hill supporter at the start of the season). The only ones I don't agree with are:
1) Trading away Gore and signing Bush. Why not keep Gore and try to sign Bush anyway. I don't think Coffee is our future RB, have a feeling he'll be our back-up even if Gore leaves down the road.
2) I don't agree with releasing Rossum, either. But I believe he's been injured in Dallas, too. So, he wouldn't be of much help anyway. Besides, Battle and Jones isn't getting much PT, might as well make use of them in some aspect of the game. Battle won't return, and Jones should get more PT next season. We'll probably find our KR/PR in FA.
3) I can't believe Heitmann is constantly left out of everyone's list when we mention our great players. He's the most under-rated, most under-appreciated guy on this team and deserves some credit, too.
4) No mentioned of our "beloved" GM? Along with Nolan, I think McCloughan did get some definite great picks in Gore, Willis, and dare I say Smith who's finally performing well (under shotgun obviously). But he deserves some blame, too.
But like I said, I pretty much agree with all the rest you talked about.
I'm ok with getting Bush and keeping Gore both.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM
- SanDiego49er
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- Posts: 47,923
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Dunno man, i gotta agree with SD on some of those points. I never understood the mooch firing. That was totally silly. Never got nolan and wanting to put a spread QB in immediately. Smith should have never played that first season.
Game management has been horrible. Don't think anyone can disagree.
While sing is unprven, he has shown he's willing to change and adapt; nolan never did.
And I think Jed will be fine; at least he cares.
sing has some adaptibility. That's his only positive trait I can think of.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM
- krizay
- Veteran
- Posts: 24,594
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
We won't make the playoffs but we have found our QB of the future. Alex has been throwing super well since he took over. The best he ever played by far. That's the most important development of the season. We can't go far in the playoffs yet anyway since we still have significant holes.
These are the positives we have.
Alex Smith (1st year as a positive)
Michael Crabtree (1st year as a positive)
Vernon Davis(1st year as a positive)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley
Patrick Willis
Justin Smith
Nate Clements
This is not a completely awful team. Just a stupid organization. For example look at these.
~ Pick a star shotgun / spread offense QB and play him for 4 1/2 years in the I formation slamming the RB into the pile. Until you finally figure out 1/2 way through year 5 gee maybe the spread would be good for him... With all due respect. slamming the RB into the pile was the only thing working. If Alex looked good in the spread before this season. Then someone on here would have atleast seen it if our coaches didn't. This is the 1st year he finally got it.
~ Fire Mooch - a playoff HC for what? "On January 15, 2003, the 49ers fired Mariucci, reportedly after the coach lost a power struggle with general manager Terry Donahue"
~ Hire NoWin and singFRAUD with no Head Coaching experience... And boy does it show. Problem wasn't hiring Nolan. Problem was giving him full control. Which hasn't worked for anyone yet! As for Sing. He definitely seems like he needs an x's and o's guy on offense. Please bring in Martz or Weiss.
~ The current game management and clock management is the worst I've ever seen under sing. A timeout the first play of the game... Pep rally timeouts... A reverse and fumble to give the other team the ball inside the red zone when you are controlling the game on offense and it's far from necessary...
We absolutely cannot win with sing. He is overmatched and outcoached in every game. Plus he cut our return guy. You could make a real legit argument that cost us 2 games outright. The Houston and Seattle games. 7 - 5 looks a lot better than 5 - 7. I agree he needs help in the coaching area.
We need O line help, a pass rusher and a safety. Plus we need to stop with the mickey mouse QB rotation and commit to Alex now for 2010. Spread offense all the way and Alex gets all the starter snaps all offseason. Why don't we also try something we never tried before. The same OC 2 years in a row. Gee what a concept... The same OC doesn't work for me. He can't call run plays out of the I or spread. He seems to be an all or nothing kind of coach with no............ don't know what word i'm looking for here. but give me martz or Weiss. That is if we keep Alex starting.
We also are going to probably have to trade Frank Gore. He's terrible catching the ball and is always stumbling around and falling down in the passing game. He's very awkward in the spread and a stud in the I formation. So if we can get a speed back who can catch (A poor mans Chris Johnson - nobody is as good as Johnson) plus some draft picks we will have a good fit for the spread. Reggie Bush would be perfect. He catches super well. He has excellent body control and coordination and excellent speed.
We lose mostly because we have stupid ownership and senior management who keep hiring and sticking with coaches who are losers or never were a HC before in the NFL. It just doesn't make sense. We lose mostly because we have faaar greater negatives than we do positives (as listed above)
~ John York - does not care.
~ Denise Debartolo York - certainly does not care. I doubt she even watches the games.
~ Jed York - The 27 year old SILVER SPOONER needed something to do when he grew up so the family handed him a $1 Billion franchise with no experience.
~ Paraag Marathe - A recent MBA grad with no experience.
This is who is running our franchise. And it explains hiring guys like NoWin and singFRAUD when they could have the likes of Mike Shannahan or Mike Holmgren instead. Heck even Mooch was a massive upgrade over this but the Yorks couldn't wait to get rid of him.
Our talent level is much improved over the last few years. We don't lose because of talent. We lose because our organization is stupid and they hire stupid coaches and the STUPID TRICKLES ON DOWN to play calling, clock management, personnel management and not even knowing who your best players are until 1/2 of the season is lost.
Wouldn't say we don't lose because of talent. Because that's a bigger part than alot fans want to realize.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:09 PM
- GhostofFredDean74
- Hall of Fame
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Not all of your points are horrible, SD...just some. Rossum isn't even playing right now because he's always hurt and he can't field the ball cleanly anymore. Gore is still a top back, though I suspect he's still not all the way back from his ankle injury. As for Singletary, you have to give him at least next year before you write him off. He turned things around last year and has us at 5-7 this year with a chance at 8-8.
Maybe that's enough for you to fire him, but given how bad this team was and how things are starting to slowly turn around, to fire Sing would be a huge mistake right now.
Give Smith/Crabs/Davis/Morgan/Jones/Walker/Gore a full training camp together with this new offensive approach, make some upgrades to the secondary, pass rush and o-line and a few more playmakers on offense and see what happens next year.
Btw, there's nothing we can do about the ownership. They own the team...end of story.
[ Edited by GoFD74 on Dec 8, 2009 at 15:11:58 ]
Maybe that's enough for you to fire him, but given how bad this team was and how things are starting to slowly turn around, to fire Sing would be a huge mistake right now.
Give Smith/Crabs/Davis/Morgan/Jones/Walker/Gore a full training camp together with this new offensive approach, make some upgrades to the secondary, pass rush and o-line and a few more playmakers on offense and see what happens next year.
Btw, there's nothing we can do about the ownership. They own the team...end of story.
[ Edited by GoFD74 on Dec 8, 2009 at 15:11:58 ]
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:10 PM
- SanDiego49er
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Krizay I agree we need more talent on the roster. But our Front Office, Ownership and Coaching do a lot for us to lose as well.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM
- WillistheWall
- Veteran
- Posts: 22,848
For the most part I agree and I don't think this should be locked. How many of us thought Nolan should be fired by year 2.5 and it took them until the middle of year 3(year 3.5) to pull the trigger. That basically wasted a whole year of everyone's time, and for the most part we could tell that the guy wasn't the answer and that he had f'ed up the OC hire badly. We could tell that his umbrella of caution defense was killing this team(just look at Billy Davis without Nolan over in AZ), and we could tell that he mishandled his #1 picked QB. We could tell that he was in over his head, he's a career DC for the most part unless he coaches on a ridiculously talented team where he can pay a bazillion dollars to keep around an OC(like Dallas can with guys like Jason Garrett), and that he had no idea about anything offense. Then when he hired Martz most people could tell it was a bad idea, that he'd be gone in a year, that we didn't have the OL or the RB to pull off the Martz offense, etc.
Then we hired Sing without looking at any of the other coaches, and some very good ones were out there. I like Sing, I'm willing to give him a 2nd year to get some continuity going and get everything on the same page, but if we had gotten Shanahan or Gruden after they were fired we wouldn't have to put up with Jimmy Raye shifting his offense around, or the poor feel for the game he has. At this point though, we need continuity so badly and Raye has some good plays in his play book(6 plays on Sunday would've gotten us points and we only capitalized on a few of them, we should've had 30+ and only wound up with 17 because of drops and fumbles), or thinking we would be a smashmouth team and then finding out we don't have the OLine to pull it off, etc. One of the things Shanahan usually has is a good OLine. He can find a few talented but under the radar rejects and a high talent and get them to give up a league low sack total.
At this point I think Sing needs to stay and learn from his mistakes/the mistakes, because he's building something and he's finally developing players Nolan never figured out how to develop, and we finally have a system that has a chance to stay in place, and a defense. But I think we need a Parcells type above McCloughan, because he hasn't built an OLine, he's given money where he shouldn't have(Brandon Jones, Marvel Smith), our secondary for the most part is a mess, and we could use a guy like Holmgren in the FO because he'll have connections for things like a good OLine coach, secondary coach, etc. He'll have connections with good position coaches he's worked with previously or knows personally instead of us having to find guys from the bottom of the barrel that were rejected from other teams(like Foerster who has never had a good OLine anywhere he went).
Then we hired Sing without looking at any of the other coaches, and some very good ones were out there. I like Sing, I'm willing to give him a 2nd year to get some continuity going and get everything on the same page, but if we had gotten Shanahan or Gruden after they were fired we wouldn't have to put up with Jimmy Raye shifting his offense around, or the poor feel for the game he has. At this point though, we need continuity so badly and Raye has some good plays in his play book(6 plays on Sunday would've gotten us points and we only capitalized on a few of them, we should've had 30+ and only wound up with 17 because of drops and fumbles), or thinking we would be a smashmouth team and then finding out we don't have the OLine to pull it off, etc. One of the things Shanahan usually has is a good OLine. He can find a few talented but under the radar rejects and a high talent and get them to give up a league low sack total.
At this point I think Sing needs to stay and learn from his mistakes/the mistakes, because he's building something and he's finally developing players Nolan never figured out how to develop, and we finally have a system that has a chance to stay in place, and a defense. But I think we need a Parcells type above McCloughan, because he hasn't built an OLine, he's given money where he shouldn't have(Brandon Jones, Marvel Smith), our secondary for the most part is a mess, and we could use a guy like Holmgren in the FO because he'll have connections for things like a good OLine coach, secondary coach, etc. He'll have connections with good position coaches he's worked with previously or knows personally instead of us having to find guys from the bottom of the barrel that were rejected from other teams(like Foerster who has never had a good OLine anywhere he went).
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:12 PM
- 9erfanAUS
- Veteran
- Posts: 16,281
See, I can't fault ownership as much as some. To me, the most control that an Owner has is the hiring and firing of GM and HC.
In cases where the Owner has direct influence over football decisions - e.g Al Davis and Jerry Jones, I can then see a just cause for putting blame on their shoulders. Most Owner's hire the best man possible and then trust them to make football decisions because they are not qualified to do so.
IIRC, Mooch got fired because he was soliciting other coaching offers, was he not? He also flamed out in Detroit.
-9fA
In cases where the Owner has direct influence over football decisions - e.g Al Davis and Jerry Jones, I can then see a just cause for putting blame on their shoulders. Most Owner's hire the best man possible and then trust them to make football decisions because they are not qualified to do so.
IIRC, Mooch got fired because he was soliciting other coaching offers, was he not? He also flamed out in Detroit.
-9fA
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:12 PM
- SanDiego49er
- Veteran
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Originally posted by GoFD74:
Not all of your points are horrible, SD...just some. Rossum isn't even playing right now because he's always hurt and he can't field the ball cleanly anymore. Gore is still a top back, though I suspect he's still not all the way back from his ankle injury. As for Singletary, you have to give him at least next year before you write him off. He turned things around last year and has us at 5-7 this year with a chance at 8-8.
Maybe that's enough for you to fire him, but given how bad this team was and how things are starting to slowly turn around, to fire Sing would be a huge mistake right now.
Give Smith/Crabs/Davis/Morgan/Jones/Walker/Gore a full training camp together with this new offensive approach, make some upgrades to the secondary, pass rush and o-line and a few more playmakers on offense and see what happens next year.
I'm ok with giving those guys a full training camp together. But we need a speed receiver RB out of the backfield for 3rd downs.
I think the best thing we could do is keep the OC and QB coach at least.
But you can't argue that sing needs help on coaching day / game day management / clock management can you? I mean there have been significant blunders that cost us games this year.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:13 PM
- krizay
- Veteran
- Posts: 24,594
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Krizay I agree we need more talent on the roster. But our Front Office, Ownership and Coaching do a lot for us to lose as well.
you apparently didn't read the bolded mixed in as well?
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:13 PM
- MertonHanks
- Veteran
- Posts: 4
The nicknames you've conjured up for these people certainly reinforces what you're trying to say
I would say that Paraag Marathe has helped us a great deal in the salary cap department it seems. As far as Singletary is concerned, he's basically a rookie head coach - I'm willing to grant him a year's worth of growing pains. We didn't make the playoffs, but came awful close. I'd say that's about where most non-fans thought we'd be at the end of the year, if not a little worse.
Just because this season has finally fallen apart doesn't mean we need a full house cleaning. If we're having this discussion same time next year then I'll be happy to concede these points.
I would say that Paraag Marathe has helped us a great deal in the salary cap department it seems. As far as Singletary is concerned, he's basically a rookie head coach - I'm willing to grant him a year's worth of growing pains. We didn't make the playoffs, but came awful close. I'd say that's about where most non-fans thought we'd be at the end of the year, if not a little worse.
Just because this season has finally fallen apart doesn't mean we need a full house cleaning. If we're having this discussion same time next year then I'll be happy to concede these points.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:13 PM
- SanDiego49er
- Veteran
- Posts: 47,923
Originally posted by krizay:Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Krizay I agree we need more talent on the roster. But our Front Office, Ownership and Coaching do a lot for us to lose as well.
you apparently didn't read the bolded mixed in as well?
Yeah I see it. I'm just saying it's both. But this organization is just plain bad.
[ Edited by SanDiego49er on Dec 8, 2009 at 15:14:25 ]
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:16 PM
- danimal
- Veteran
- Posts: 14,705
On the point about Alex not being used in Spread until now. I think you have to at least partly attribute that to draft intention. I mean if the Niners thought he was only going to be effective in the spread I am certain they would have passed. So the starting point is a belief that he can be a complete franchise QB.
Had Rocky Benard been, I don't know...BLOCKED...2007 would have been the year where we would have known the true Alex Smith with all his faults and all his strengths, but alas that was not meant to be.
Had Rocky Benard been, I don't know...BLOCKED...2007 would have been the year where we would have known the true Alex Smith with all his faults and all his strengths, but alas that was not meant to be.
Dec 8, 2009 at 3:18 PM
- 9erfanAUS
- Veteran
- Posts: 16,281
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:Originally posted by darkknight49:
Dunno man, i gotta agree with SD on some of those points. I never understood the mooch firing. That was totally silly. Never got nolan and wanting to put a spread QB in immediately. Smith should have never played that first season.
Game management has been horrible. Don't think anyone can disagree.
While sing is unprven, he has shown he's willing to change and adapt; nolan never did.
And I think Jed will be fine; at least he cares.
sing has some adaptibility. That's his only positive trait I can think of.
I feel that Singletary can get the best out of players. I give credit to Singletary for bringing along Davis and Smith. He can recognize what he needs to say or do in order to help a player improve. ie. instill confidence in Smith and show Davis how to be a leader.
The above is something that Nolan was just never able to do. Singletary is big on relationships and i feel that this is a big reason as to why some players are playing better than expected.
-9fA