This offense does us no good when we have terrible field position. We cannot risk running this offense when we are backed up in our own Endzone which is why Alex Smith must be better in other areas and it's why this team must get better in other formations than just the spread.
In the second half, our inability to be successful out of a standard offense killed us. This is why the saying Brady or Manning running the spread most of the time is silly. Not just Smith, but our TEAM MUST be able to have success out of a standard offense because of these bad field position situations.
Brady/Manning from the shotgun a lot statement doesn't hold water.
It's like us being able to throw together a cubism wierd anything goes painting and say we are good artists because we can make something similar to a Picaso.
What people don't understand is that Picaso can paint a NORMAL painting to its details to perfection also.
My Point: Brady/Manning are also GREAT QBs in any type of offense whereas Alex has only proven to be a good QB out of just one type of offense.
What happens when that gets figured out or if Vernon or Crabtree go down and we don't have the weapons to spread? Is Alex as effective anymore? Hopefully, he learns to be a good QB out of any offense.
[ Edited by Joecool on Dec 7, 2009 at 10:11:30 ]
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The Spread Offense
Dec 7, 2009 at 10:11 AM
- Joecool
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Dec 7, 2009 at 10:24 AM
- brhokla
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I totally agree but for this to happen our O-Line must be better and they suck! Alex is best suited for the spread but he could be fine under center if the line could hold up and be even average. The problem we have with this team is the lack of concentration. Guys drop passes that are in the hands..... Poor O-Line play. Games are won in the trenches and the turn over battle usually determines the outcome. We need for our WR's to catch the damn passes and our Oline to get better fast. I think we fire Sully and the Oline coach cause neither one has shown they have what it takes.
I think Alex is our Qb and I'm fine with that. we need guys to do the jobs they are paid to do... Catch the ball.
I think Alex is our Qb and I'm fine with that. we need guys to do the jobs they are paid to do... Catch the ball.
Dec 7, 2009 at 10:35 AM
- Joecool
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Originally posted by brhokla:
I totally agree but for this to happen our O-Line must be better and they suck! Alex is best suited for the spread but he could be fine under center if the line could hold up and be even average. The problem we have with this team is the lack of concentration. Guys drop passes that are in the hands..... Poor O-Line play. Games are won in the trenches and the turn over battle usually determines the outcome. We need for our WR's to catch the damn passes and our Oline to get better fast. I think we fire Sully and the Oline coach cause neither one has shown they have what it takes.
I think Alex is our Qb and I'm fine with that. we need guys to do the jobs they are paid to do... Catch the ball.
Alex makes this offense move up and down the field but you pointed to reasons why we can't rely on ust one style.
Dec 7, 2009 at 10:37 AM
- qnnhan7
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The spread isn't good when the team is backed up inside the 15 not because of Smith, but because it's risky throwing the ball in the area close to the goal line AND we can't run the ball. Ideally, OC would like to be conservative in that area, run the ball with consistency, get some room away from the endzone then string together some passes.
It has nothing to do with Smith or what some perceived he lacked.
It has nothing to do with Smith or what some perceived he lacked.
Dec 7, 2009 at 10:38 AM
- leakyfausett
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- Posts: 11,556
I am not really sure our offense really is a Spread. Most spread offenses use 4 Wr and a back. This about the only one with 2 TE, a back and 2 receivers. Good teams also run effectively out of the spread because the D is spread out so much and many times in nickle or dime coverage.
Dec 7, 2009 at 10:40 AM
- Joecool
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Originally posted by qnnhan7:
The spread isn't good when the team is backed up inside the 15 not because of Smith, but because it's risky throwing the ball in the area close to the goal line AND we can't run the ball. Ideally, OC would like to be conservative in that area, run the ball with consistency, get some room away from the endzone then string together some passes.
It has nothing to do with Smith or what some perceived he lacked.
In a way it does. Smith wasn't very accurate with the quick short throws. In the first half, his quick short throws fluttered or were not on the mark. It was only a few of them. He is very good at the 10+ yard throws but when we are backed up, we need those quick-hitters so that he doesn't get sacked for a Safety.
I think the OL and our running game is known without being said.
Dec 7, 2009 at 10:45 AM
- pd24
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I agree, it looks good, but we need balance. I think if we fix the O line next year and they can run block, we will see more balance. Right now the O line can not run block, if not for the 3 bug runs this year, the ypc would look real bad.
Dec 7, 2009 at 10:46 AM
- qnnhan7
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Originally posted by Joecool:Originally posted by qnnhan7:
The spread isn't good when the team is backed up inside the 15 not because of Smith, but because it's risky throwing the ball in the area close to the goal line AND we can't run the ball. Ideally, OC would like to be conservative in that area, run the ball with consistency, get some room away from the endzone then string together some passes.
It has nothing to do with Smith or what some perceived he lacked.
In a way it does. Smith wasn't very accurate with the quick short throws. In the first half, his quick short throws fluttered or were not on the mark. It was only a few of them. He is very good at the 10+ yard throws but when we are backed up, we need those quick-hitters so that he doesn't get sacked for a Safety.
I think the OL and our running game is known without being said.
Not sure what you're talking about, but if you go back to the 3rd quarter. Smith got us out of a hole inside the ten with a pass down the middle to Crabtree and that was under center
Dec 7, 2009 at 11:28 AM
- Joecool
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Originally posted by qnnhan7:Originally posted by Joecool:Originally posted by qnnhan7:
The spread isn't good when the team is backed up inside the 15 not because of Smith, but because it's risky throwing the ball in the area close to the goal line AND we can't run the ball. Ideally, OC would like to be conservative in that area, run the ball with consistency, get some room away from the endzone then string together some passes.
It has nothing to do with Smith or what some perceived he lacked.
In a way it does. Smith wasn't very accurate with the quick short throws. In the first half, his quick short throws fluttered or were not on the mark. It was only a few of them. He is very good at the 10+ yard throws but when we are backed up, we need those quick-hitters so that he doesn't get sacked for a Safety.
I think the OL and our running game is known without being said.
Not sure what you're talking about, but if you go back to the 3rd quarter. Smith got us out of a hole inside the ten with a pass down the middle to Crabtree and that was under center
That was a 10+ yard throw. He needs to work on his 1-steppers.
Dec 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM
- ZRF80
- Member
- Posts: 13,551
Even though this offense has shown signs om improvement in the past couple weeks, we are still far from a quality offense. The truth is that we still lack playmakers in the skill position. Gore's legs have run their course. He needs to be converted to a short yardage back, and we need to find someone that can excel in the spread ala Reggie Bush. Another number 2 receiver is needed to complement Crabtree, as Morgan is clearly no better than a number 3 guy. He makes too many mistakes at the most inopportune times. Jacobs is garbage.
Even with a patched oline, I agree that Smith needs to learn how to function out of a mulitfaceted offensive scheme. It seems like everytime we get penalized or have the ball deep inside our own territory, its an automatic 3 and out drive. Im glad to see that Smith is finally good at something, but we'd be foolish to think that we could run the shotgun for the next 12 years. I guess he's bought himself a free pass to the starting spot next season, but Id still get a vet QB in here just in case.
Even with a patched oline, I agree that Smith needs to learn how to function out of a mulitfaceted offensive scheme. It seems like everytime we get penalized or have the ball deep inside our own territory, its an automatic 3 and out drive. Im glad to see that Smith is finally good at something, but we'd be foolish to think that we could run the shotgun for the next 12 years. I guess he's bought himself a free pass to the starting spot next season, but Id still get a vet QB in here just in case.
Dec 7, 2009 at 11:47 AM
- LasVegasWally
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- Posts: 24,247
Interesting post. I agree that Smith needs more of a repetoire to take the team to a winning season. But the game I saw yesterday he palyed well and the Oline couldn't open any running lanes although they did pass protect fairly good. Gore did not have a good game and I feel he may have only one or two good not great seasons left.
I agree - Smith needs to get better but I feel he's on that path. First, I think we don't have the right coaching - these motiovational speeces are becoming demotivating. We need a change of pace back, an Oline that can run block and pass block and a consistent pass rusher to be a top tier team. I'd like to see Nate Davis get one quarter of work in each of our remaining games so we can see if he is in our plans. Make him the # 2 next season and find a qualified vet as # 3. Throw Coffee out there and anyone else we have questions about to see where we need to cut our losses and get new blood.
I agree - Smith needs to get better but I feel he's on that path. First, I think we don't have the right coaching - these motiovational speeces are becoming demotivating. We need a change of pace back, an Oline that can run block and pass block and a consistent pass rusher to be a top tier team. I'd like to see Nate Davis get one quarter of work in each of our remaining games so we can see if he is in our plans. Make him the # 2 next season and find a qualified vet as # 3. Throw Coffee out there and anyone else we have questions about to see where we need to cut our losses and get new blood.
Dec 7, 2009 at 11:51 AM
- cNiner
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- Posts: 6,440
Originally posted by Joecool:
This offense does us no good when we have terrible field position. We cannot risk running this offense when we are backed up in our own Endzone which is why Alex Smith must be better in other areas and it's why this team must get better in other formations than just the spread.
In the second half, our inability to be successful out of a standard offense killed us. This is why the saying Brady or Manning running the spread most of the time is silly. Not just Smith, but our TEAM MUST be able to have success out of a standard offense because of these bad field position situations.
Brady/Manning from the shotgun a lot statement doesn't hold water.
It's like us being able to throw together a cubism wierd anything goes painting and say we are good artists because we can make something similar to a Picaso.
What people don't understand is that Picaso can paint a NORMAL painting to its details to perfection also.
My Point: Brady/Manning are also GREAT QBs in any type of offense whereas Alex has only proven to be a good QB out of just one type of offense.
What happens when that gets figured out or if Vernon or Crabtree go down and we don't have the weapons to spread? Is Alex as effective anymore? Hopefully, he learns to be a good QB out of any offense.
if we have a good OL , don't matter who goes down !
Dec 7, 2009 at 11:53 AM
- qnnhan7
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- Posts: 34,146
Originally posted by Joecool:Originally posted by qnnhan7:Originally posted by Joecool:Originally posted by qnnhan7:
The spread isn't good when the team is backed up inside the 15 not because of Smith, but because it's risky throwing the ball in the area close to the goal line AND we can't run the ball. Ideally, OC would like to be conservative in that area, run the ball with consistency, get some room away from the endzone then string together some passes.
It has nothing to do with Smith or what some perceived he lacked.
In a way it does. Smith wasn't very accurate with the quick short throws. In the first half, his quick short throws fluttered or were not on the mark. It was only a few of them. He is very good at the 10+ yard throws but when we are backed up, we need those quick-hitters so that he doesn't get sacked for a Safety.
I think the OL and our running game is known without being said.
Not sure what you're talking about, but if you go back to the 3rd quarter. Smith got us out of a hole inside the ten with a pass down the middle to Crabtree and that was under center
That was a 10+ yard throw. He needs to work on his 1-steppers.
Yeah, nice to have a qb under center that recognized the play and throw it to the right guy for a big gain to get us out of a hole inside the 5 right
Dec 7, 2009 at 11:53 AM
- TX9R
- Veteran
- Posts: 8,348
I think as a package it works fine, but the playcalling has been terrible. It's either all run or all pass pretty much every game, every half. There is no balance and hasn't been at any point this season.
We are an oline upgrade, a serious pass rushing threat and a quality playcaller away from being a good team. I think we're aon the right track but we need to address our weaknesses this offseason instead of drafting back ups at positions of strangth and acast offs at Oline.
We are an oline upgrade, a serious pass rushing threat and a quality playcaller away from being a good team. I think we're aon the right track but we need to address our weaknesses this offseason instead of drafting back ups at positions of strangth and acast offs at Oline.
Dec 7, 2009 at 11:58 AM
- dj43
- Moderator
- Posts: 35,654
Originally posted by brhokla:
I totally agree but for this to happen our O-Line must be better and they suck! Alex is best suited for the spread but he could be fine under center if the line could hold up and be even average. The problem we have with this team is the lack of concentration. Guys drop passes that are in the hands..... Poor O-Line play. Games are won in the trenches and the turn over battle usually determines the outcome. We need for our WR's to catch the damn passes and our Oline to get better fast. I think we fire Sully and the Oline coach cause neither one has shown they have what it takes.
I think Alex is our Qb and I'm fine with that. we need guys to do the jobs they are paid to do... Catch the ball.
It isn't that Alex isn't effective out of the I, no QB can be effective if the OL can't pass protect. If the OL can't pass protect, the shotgun is the only alternative.
The secret to pass protection is the use of play action...and play action cannot be effective if the team cannot run the ball out of the I.
I know you guys are probably tired of me harping on this but Sing/Raye MUST begin to use blocking schemes besides hat-on-hat mano-a-mano stuff. That is the easiest and most predictable to defend.
I'm not talking rocket science here. Every team in the league has sweeps, stretches, traps, misdirection, etc., in their playbook, and if they don't, they should. (If Raye hasn't taught some of that he should be fired for certain.) Once the offense begins to use some variety to force the defense to be more honest, the running game will come back and play action starts to work and the QB can go back under center.
Last night they put Warner's numbers on play action passes on the screen and they were phenominal. His rating was like 124 on play action. Collinsworth noted those numbers were congruent with the strength of their running game.
The spread/shotgun is fine for a change-up but in time teams will defend it if they know you have no alternative.