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The spread offense and the coaches' future

So, game after game the offense just plain sucks. Most people blame this on Hill and the OL, plus Sing's prized offense.

In desperation, Hill is benched. The offense is better, but not good.

Then, again in desperation, the team goes to the spread when way behind and did quite well on a couple of occasions. Still, Sing/Raye continued with their traditional offense.

Then, all of the skill position players (all, evidently!) went to Sing to get him to change to the spread.

Sing tells them to go see Raye, it was Raye's call.

So, they go to Raye and the offense seems to have changed.

Sing seems really detached from this sort of offense. You can see his expression on the sideline. I don't think he likes this at all and would go back to smash-mouth in a second if it wasn't for all the complaints and booing and such (which always leads to unemployment).

What we don't know is whether York may have called Sing on what was happening with the offense he was running.

Can a reluctantly adaptive HC and OC really bring the team up to the level of the Saints, etc, teams with creative offenses, or will they be mired down in quaint philosophies that only get them so far?
Sing has the same detached look all the time. Perhaps Sing realized that it wasnt' the offense that is the problem. The spread works. he wants to be able to run the ball when it counts not all the time, he is on record time and again saying that. If I was sing I'm not worried about an offense that is putting up 20-30 every week. I'm worried that my vaunted Defense was giving up big plays and failing to make big stops. Defense lost the Minnesota Game, Houston Game, Green Bay and Titans games. It arguably lost the Indy Game. In my opinion. In each of those games the offense preformed well above expectations and put the team in position to win. In the final drive of the minnesota game there were several opportunities to end that final drive that were not executed. Sacks that didn't materialize, interceptions dropped, and yeah it was a great throw and catch but the odds were with us not Bret. In the houston game the Defense was non existent in the first half and asking for a 4 touchdown quarter from Alex smith off the bench isn't exactly how you win games. there are several plays in the Titans game that come to mind. Most notable the failure to tackle Chris Johnson on the sideline in the red zone. Consider that we have bottled up some of the premier running backs in this league. But in a critical game in GB we let Ryan Grant (who is good but not anywhere in the class of backs we have stuffed) burn us for well over 100 yards. You can forgive the RB pass in the Indy game. That said. How often has our Defense given up needless points at the end of halfs and games? Manning should not have been able to put points on the board at the end of the first half. Last week It made me sick that we gave up a field goal vs. the Jags at the end of the half. It was nice to see the defense step up and create some turnovers in the Jags game finally. I have cnofidence in our teams ability to score when needed. The key to finnishing out this season is our defense making big plays as well. Sacks, Fumbles, and INTs. We know the Defense is capable. Before you jump all over me I will admit that the offense has carried a lions share of the blame this season as well. But to me, since we have moved to an all out spread or just used it when needed, the offense is basically solved. It has performed consistently enough the last few weeks. The Defense has either Brilliant or burned. They have to play brilliant here on out for us to win.
Originally posted by VA49er:
Sing has the same detached look all the time. Perhaps Sing realized that it wasnt' the offense that is the problem. The spread works. he wants to be able to run the ball when it counts not all the time, he is on record time and again saying that. If I was sing I'm not worried about an offense that is putting up 20-30 every week. I'm worried that my vaunted Defense was giving up big plays and failing to make big stops. Defense lost the Minnesota Game, Houston Game, Green Bay and Titans games. It arguably lost the Indy Game. In my opinion. In each of those games the offense preformed well above expectations and put the team in position to win. In the final drive of the minnesota game there were several opportunities to end that final drive that were not executed. Sacks that didn't materialize, interceptions dropped, and yeah it was a great throw and catch but the odds were with us not Bret. In the houston game the Defense was non existent in the first half and asking for a 4 touchdown quarter from Alex smith off the bench isn't exactly how you win games. there are several plays in the Titans game that come to mind. Most notable the failure to tackle Chris Johnson on the sideline in the red zone. Consider that we have bottled up some of the premier running backs in this league. But in a critical game in GB we let Ryan Grant (who is good but not anywhere in the class of backs we have stuffed) burn us for well over 100 yards. You can forgive the RB pass in the Indy game. That said. How often has our Defense given up needless points at the end of halfs and games? Manning should not have been able to put points on the board at the end of the first half. Last week It made me sick that we gave up a field goal vs. the Jags at the end of the half. It was nice to see the defense step up and create some turnovers in the Jags game finally. I have cnofidence in our teams ability to score when needed. The key to finnishing out this season is our defense making big plays as well. Sacks, Fumbles, and INTs. We know the Defense is capable. Before you jump all over me I will admit that the offense has carried a lions share of the blame this season as well. But to me, since we have moved to an all out spread or just used it when needed, the offense is basically solved. It has performed consistently enough the last few weeks. The Defense has either Brilliant or burned. They have to play brilliant here on out for us to win.

Some sentence structure please. I cant read that the way it is.
Originally posted by VA49er:
Sing has the same detached look all the time. Perhaps Sing realized that it wasnt' the offense that is the problem. The spread works. he wants to be able to run the ball when it counts not all the time, he is on record time and again saying that. If I was sing I'm not worried about an offense that is putting up 20-30 every week. I'm worried that my vaunted Defense was giving up big plays and failing to make big stops. Defense lost the Minnesota Game, Houston Game, Green Bay and Titans games. It arguably lost the Indy Game. In my opinion. In each of those games the offense preformed well above expectations and put the team in position to win. In the final drive of the minnesota game there were several opportunities to end that final drive that were not executed. Sacks that didn't materialize, interceptions dropped, and yeah it was a great throw and catch but the odds were with us not Bret. In the houston game the Defense was non existent in the first half and asking for a 4 touchdown quarter from Alex smith off the bench isn't exactly how you win games. there are several plays in the Titans game that come to mind. Most notable the failure to tackle Chris Johnson on the sideline in the red zone. Consider that we have bottled up some of the premier running backs in this league. But in a critical game in GB we let Ryan Grant (who is good but not anywhere in the class of backs we have stuffed) burn us for well over 100 yards. You can forgive the RB pass in the Indy game. That said. How often has our Defense given up needless points at the end of halfs and games? Manning should not have been able to put points on the board at the end of the first half. Last week It made me sick that we gave up a field goal vs. the Jags at the end of the half. It was nice to see the defense step up and create some turnovers in the Jags game finally. I have cnofidence in our teams ability to score when needed. The key to finnishing out this season is our defense making big plays as well. Sacks, Fumbles, and INTs. We know the Defense is capable. Before you jump all over me I will admit that the offense has carried a lions share of the blame this season as well. But to me, since we have moved to an all out spread or just used it when needed, the offense is basically solved. It has performed consistently enough the last few weeks. The Defense has either Brilliant or burned. They have to play brilliant here on out for us to win.

I guess I was watching different games than you. As I recall Our defense shut down Peyton Manning, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Adrian Peterson, Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, Steven Jackson, did I forget anyone?

The minnesota game our offense did not convert one 3rd down conversion.
The Houston game our offense was stagnant in the first half, if they would have put together any kind of scoring drive in the first 30 minutes we probably would have won that game.
The Tennessee game we had a chance to win if it weren't for the tipped balls by our recievers and bad play calling on our own 2 yard line.
The Green Bay game is much like the Houston game, we had only one first down the entire first half of play.
The Indianapolis game you actually expected to beat the colts with only 2 scoring drives the entire game, come on get real. Even if we shut down Peyton that offense can still find a way to win, nice designed halfback option, I have to give it to them. We were out coached.

Does anyone else agree with this?
For a first year head coach with a new OC, and some mismatched offensive parts Sing is doing Okay.

If the spread is the long term answer, Raye can most likely figure out how to game plan it and call plays, but we will need changes at most of the offensive position coaches.

The O-line, the running backs, the QBs, and the wide receivers coaches will have to change , or the incumbents will have to change little of what they are teaching.

Most of the principles are the same, but little things like reads, footwork, and basic decision making are radically different, this is why, Singletarry stated you just can't change mid season to a whole new offense.

We are not currently running a spread offense we are utilizing some of the formations but not the over all philosophy, we will need an offseason filled with a few new players and coaches to make the change.
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
For a first year head coach with a new OC, and some mismatched offensive parts Sing is doing Okay.

If the spread is the long term answer, Raye can most likely figure out how to game plan it and call plays, but we will need changes at most of the offensive position coaches.

The O-line, the running backs, the QBs, and the wide receivers coaches will have to change , or the incumbents will have to change little of what they are teaching.

Most of the principles are the same, but little things like reads, footwork, and basic decision making are radically different, this is why, Singletarry stated you just can't change mid season to a whole new offense.

We are not currently running a spread offense we are utilizing some of the formations but not the over all philosophy, we will need an offseason filled with a few new players and coaches to make the change.

I believe QB's coach Mike Johnson studied the spread offense while he was out of football last season. I hope we stay with this offense & expand on it.
Originally posted by tohara3:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
For a first year head coach with a new OC, and some mismatched offensive parts Sing is doing Okay.

If the spread is the long term answer, Raye can most likely figure out how to game plan it and call plays, but we will need changes at most of the offensive position coaches.

The O-line, the running backs, the QBs, and the wide receivers coaches will have to change , or the incumbents will have to change little of what they are teaching.

Most of the principles are the same, but little things like reads, footwork, and basic decision making are radically different, this is why, Singletarry stated you just can't change mid season to a whole new offense.

We are not currently running a spread offense we are utilizing some of the formations but not the over all philosophy, we will need an offseason filled with a few new players and coaches to make the change.

I believe QB's coach Mike Johnson studied the spread offense while he was out of football last season. I hope we stay with this offense & expand on it.

Thats good news! I may not personally like the "Spread" but many people feel it is the future or at least the next big thing! so I gotta get over it, and if it is the next big thing i gotta hope we are damn good at it!
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by tohara3:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
For a first year head coach with a new OC, and some mismatched offensive parts Sing is doing Okay.

If the spread is the long term answer, Raye can most likely figure out how to game plan it and call plays, but we will need changes at most of the offensive position coaches.

The O-line, the running backs, the QBs, and the wide receivers coaches will have to change , or the incumbents will have to change little of what they are teaching.

Most of the principles are the same, but little things like reads, footwork, and basic decision making are radically different, this is why, Singletarry stated you just can't change mid season to a whole new offense.

We are not currently running a spread offense we are utilizing some of the formations but not the over all philosophy, we will need an offseason filled with a few new players and coaches to make the change.

I believe QB's coach Mike Johnson studied the spread offense while he was out of football last season. I hope we stay with this offense & expand on it.

Thats good news! I may not personally like the "Spread" but many people feel it is the future or at least the next big thing! so I gotta get over it, and if it is the next big thing i gotta hope we are damn good at it!

The spread is becoming more popular because more college teams are using this style offense, and it seems that less players coming into the NFL are familiar with pro-style offense.

It is going to be a new trend for awhile (kinda like all the teams trying to switch from 4-3 to 3-4 defense).
Spread or not, the problem I have with Sing is that he was never an offensive or defensive coordinator. He must rely on the coordinators to run both sides of the ball. What expertise does Sing bring? Raye has been at best an average O.C. Can Sing help Raye be a better O.C? If Raye leaves or retires can Sing teach the next O.C. his system of offensive football or will we be in the Nolan situation of revolving O.C.'s and a different system every year? Sing's stated ideal concept of offensive football is running Gore between the tackles. What other NFL team even WANTS to do that? I think that's why no O.C. wanted to work for Sing and we ended up with a journeymen like Raye. Since the early 1970's the NFL has done every thing it can to make the league a passing one. The idea that a team could win by running "Sixty percent" of the time and mostly between the tackles is insane. Last year the the NFL team that ran the most did so only fifty-three percent of the time. Until we get a modern and innovative O.C. the best we can hope for will be as a 8-8 or 9-7 team that just misses the play-offs OR bows out after the Wild Card game.

[ Edited by stevenking57 on Dec 3, 2009 at 18:47:39 ]
Originally posted by insanemike27:
Originally posted by VA49er:
Sing has the same detached look all the time. Perhaps Sing realized that it wasnt' the offense that is the problem. The spread works. he wants to be able to run the ball when it counts not all the time, he is on record time and again saying that. If I was sing I'm not worried about an offense that is putting up 20-30 every week. I'm worried that my vaunted Defense was giving up big plays and failing to make big stops. Defense lost the Minnesota Game, Houston Game, Green Bay and Titans games. It arguably lost the Indy Game. In my opinion. In each of those games the offense preformed well above expectations and put the team in position to win. In the final drive of the minnesota game there were several opportunities to end that final drive that were not executed. Sacks that didn't materialize, interceptions dropped, and yeah it was a great throw and catch but the odds were with us not Bret. In the houston game the Defense was non existent in the first half and asking for a 4 touchdown quarter from Alex smith off the bench isn't exactly how you win games. there are several plays in the Titans game that come to mind. Most notable the failure to tackle Chris Johnson on the sideline in the red zone. Consider that we have bottled up some of the premier running backs in this league. But in a critical game in GB we let Ryan Grant (who is good but not anywhere in the class of backs we have stuffed) burn us for well over 100 yards. You can forgive the RB pass in the Indy game. That said. How often has our Defense given up needless points at the end of halfs and games? Manning should not have been able to put points on the board at the end of the first half. Last week It made me sick that we gave up a field goal vs. the Jags at the end of the half. It was nice to see the defense step up and create some turnovers in the Jags game finally. I have cnofidence in our teams ability to score when needed. The key to finnishing out this season is our defense making big plays as well. Sacks, Fumbles, and INTs. We know the Defense is capable. Before you jump all over me I will admit that the offense has carried a lions share of the blame this season as well. But to me, since we have moved to an all out spread or just used it when needed, the offense is basically solved. It has performed consistently enough the last few weeks. The Defense has either Brilliant or burned. They have to play brilliant here on out for us to win.

I guess I was watching different games than you. As I recall Our defense shut down Peyton Manning, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Adrian Peterson, Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, Steven Jackson, did I forget anyone?

The minnesota game our offense did not convert one 3rd down conversion.
The Houston game our offense was stagnant in the first half, if they would have put together any kind of scoring drive in the first 30 minutes we probably would have won that game.
The Tennessee game we had a chance to win if it weren't for the tipped balls by our recievers and bad play calling on our own 2 yard line.
The Green Bay game is much like the Houston game, we had only one first down the entire first half of play.
The Indianapolis game you actually expected to beat the colts with only 2 scoring drives the entire game, come on get real. Even if we shut down Peyton that offense can still find a way to win, nice designed halfback option, I have to give it to them. We were out coached.

Does anyone else agree with this?

We can ALL sit and point fingers at the team, the coaches etc..but at the end of the day, the end results are in their hands obviously. Every year I feel like Jimmy Fallon in Fever Pitch now I'm just waiting for the World Championship to follow all the chaos. Going back to the original subject, the 9ers have to play all 4 quarters not show up 2 qtrs late and expect to win. The talent is there, they just need to put it to work and not just against the crappy teams.
Originally posted by insanemike27:
Originally posted by VA49er:
Sing has the same detached look all the time. Perhaps Sing realized that it wasnt' the offense that is the problem. The spread works. he wants to be able to run the ball when it counts not all the time, he is on record time and again saying that. If I was sing I'm not worried about an offense that is putting up 20-30 every week. I'm worried that my vaunted Defense was giving up big plays and failing to make big stops. Defense lost the Minnesota Game, Houston Game, Green Bay and Titans games. It arguably lost the Indy Game. In my opinion. In each of those games the offense preformed well above expectations and put the team in position to win. In the final drive of the minnesota game there were several opportunities to end that final drive that were not executed. Sacks that didn't materialize, interceptions dropped, and yeah it was a great throw and catch but the odds were with us not Bret. In the houston game the Defense was non existent in the first half and asking for a 4 touchdown quarter from Alex smith off the bench isn't exactly how you win games. there are several plays in the Titans game that come to mind. Most notable the failure to tackle Chris Johnson on the sideline in the red zone. Consider that we have bottled up some of the premier running backs in this league. But in a critical game in GB we let Ryan Grant (who is good but not anywhere in the class of backs we have stuffed) burn us for well over 100 yards. You can forgive the RB pass in the Indy game. That said. How often has our Defense given up needless points at the end of halfs and games? Manning should not have been able to put points on the board at the end of the first half. Last week It made me sick that we gave up a field goal vs. the Jags at the end of the half. It was nice to see the defense step up and create some turnovers in the Jags game finally. I have cnofidence in our teams ability to score when needed. The key to finnishing out this season is our defense making big plays as well. Sacks, Fumbles, and INTs. We know the Defense is capable. Before you jump all over me I will admit that the offense has carried a lions share of the blame this season as well. But to me, since we have moved to an all out spread or just used it when needed, the offense is basically solved. It has performed consistently enough the last few weeks. The Defense has either Brilliant or burned. They have to play brilliant here on out for us to win.

I guess I was watching different games than you. As I recall Our defense shut down Peyton Manning, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Adrian Peterson, Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, Steven Jackson, did I forget anyone?

The minnesota game our offense did not convert one 3rd down conversion.
The Houston game our offense was stagnant in the first half, if they would have put together any kind of scoring drive in the first 30 minutes we probably would have won that game.
The Tennessee game we had a chance to win if it weren't for the tipped balls by our recievers and bad play calling on our own 2 yard line.
The Green Bay game is much like the Houston game, we had only one first down the entire first half of play.
The Indianapolis game you actually expected to beat the colts with only 2 scoring drives the entire game, come on get real. Even if we shut down Peyton that offense can still find a way to win, nice designed halfback option, I have to give it to them. We were out coached.

Does anyone else agree with this?

i can see both of your points. when its comes down to it, the niners need to learn how to finish as a TEAM, on BOTH sides of the ball.
  • smileyman
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Originally posted by insanemike27:

I guess I was watching different games than you. As I recall Our defense shut down Peyton Manning, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Adrian Peterson, Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, Steven Jackson, did I forget anyone?

The minnesota game our offense did not convert one 3rd down conversion.
The Houston game our offense was stagnant in the first half, if they would have put together any kind of scoring drive in the first 30 minutes we probably would have won that game.
The Tennessee game we had a chance to win if it weren't for the tipped balls by our recievers and bad play calling on our own 2 yard line.
The Green Bay game is much like the Houston game, we had only one first down the entire first half of play.
The Indianapolis game you actually expected to beat the colts with only 2 scoring drives the entire game, come on get real. Even if we shut down Peyton that offense can still find a way to win, nice designed halfback option, I have to give it to them. We were out coached.

Does anyone else agree with this?

Nope.

Minnesota--we were leading going into the final couple of minutes. Our defense let Favre drive 80 yards for the winning score. One stop and the game is ours.

Our offense didn't let Houston get up by 21 points in the first half.

Same thing in GB. The Packers got the ball back in the 4th quarter and our defense let Ryan Grant run down their throats.

We almost lost in Chicago to freakin' Cutler because he put together a 2 min drill that marched them to within easy scoring distance.

Truth of the matter is our team on both sides of the ball has to learn to finish. Too many missed opportunities on both sides of the ball.

Just thinking about the Jacksonville game makes me mad because we lost 2 interceptions (Spikes and Lawson both dropped one), and had 6 dropped passes (1 for a TD). We can't allow that kind of stuff if we want to be a consistent team.
  • tmg808
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Originally posted by carlgo:
So, game after game the offense just plain sucks. Most people blame this on Hill and the OL, plus Sing's prized offense.

In desperation, Hill is benched. The offense is better, but not good.

Then, again in desperation, the team goes to the spread when way behind and did quite well on a couple of occasions. Still, Sing/Raye continued with their traditional offense.

Then, all of the skill position players (all, evidently!) went to Sing to get him to change to the spread.

Sing tells them to go see Raye, it was Raye's call.

So, they go to Raye and the offense seems to have changed.

Sing seems really detached from this sort of offense. You can see his expression on the sideline. I don't think he likes this at all and would go back to smash-mouth in a second if it wasn't for all the complaints and booing and such (which always leads to unemployment).

What we don't know is whether York may have called Sing on what was happening with the offense he was running.

Can a reluctantly adaptive HC and OC really bring the team up to the level of the Saints, etc, teams with creative offenses, or will they be mired down in quaint philosophies that only get them so far?

Don't Jump on the Saints ban wagon too fast, we have seen a lot of high power offenses that look a lot like this team, not win the superbowl. Remember the years that the Pats offense wasn't high powered was when they were winning superbowls.
  • fryet
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I don't think you can blame the defense on the Titan's loss. How many turn overs did we have that game? 4 or 5? The offense certainly hasn't helped the defense on many occasions of 3 and out, but I do think the defense has also under performed on many occasions. Our defense has also played some great games too, but it seems too much like feast or famine. Hopefully our offense can score 30 points some games too, and bail out the defense on some bad days, just as the defense bails out the offense some times when they have struggled.

I must confess, I am worried about the AZ game without Nate Clements. He has always done such an excellent job defending their high-powered receivers, and I don't have confidence that his replacement will do as well.
  • OHHWHAT
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So is this year's "spread" is like last years "wild cat"????