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Alex Smith's Max Potential = Brad Johnson

Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least.

When Givens and Branch left NE did the Pats not invest a high 2nd in Chad Jackson ? Trade a 2nd for Wes Welker and then trade for Randy Moss ?

What about the Colts investing a 1st round pick in Anthony Gonzalez when they had Harrison, Wayne and Clark ?

Seems they took measures to accommodate their QB's and cater to their strengths. Both teams also had the luxury of having very good OC's (Weis and Moore) who were able to mentor their offensive staffs so they could promote from within (Mcdaniels and now BB is working with Bill O'Brien albeit the Pats have no OC, while the Colts had Christensen who has been an OC). Both teams also have great OL coaches (Mudd & Scarnecchia). We haven't had those luxuries with our staff and haven't had OC's here long enough to help mentor the coaches we have to our offensive system.

Point in case good teams play to their QB's strengths and cater to them as opposed to trying to make their QB fit what they want to do.

Need further proof.....Big Ben and Pittsburgh's smash mouth style opened up more under Tomlin when Arians and Ben decided to open up the passing game....since the Steelers have drafted Holmes & Sweed to continue to try and improve the weapons for their passing game.Again another team that had the luxury of promoting the new OC from within.

The one thing we never did was give Smith or this offense the weapons it needed for a chance at a successful passing game outside of a WR with a troubled past in Antonio Bryant and a WR who appeared on his downside and couldn't catch a cold let alone a pass (Jackson). We never invested 1st day picks or to our knowledge went after higher profile WR's through FA or the draft (Dwayne Bowe was a plan B). Instead we give Sullivan water and expect him to be Jesus and turn it into wine. We have invested much in the OL and coupled with poor coaching never got much if anything out of it.

Your so f**king ignorant and you choose to be blind to the actual facts it's absurd.


Antonio Bryant and DJax were both successful receivers before they came to SF. And on that note, so was A. Lelie. Does it suck that we never signed a TO or Randy Moss type player for Alex Smith ? Sure. But he got his shot with good dependable receivers, WITH Gore and VD playing out of the backfield for him.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Smith's deficiencies may have prevented any of those receivers to have successful stints in SF ? Im sure when Antonio Bryant called him out, you were probably first in line to label him a "hater"; and when Nolan felt apologetic for giving up too soon on Bryant, you probably felt Nolan was a "retard" as well.

The fact that you have to resort to petty name calling shows the inadequacies of your posts. I usually wait until you post at least 10 times in a given thread before I respond. I'll do the same after 10 more.

Man you are just running yourself into the ground, it is sad how you carry on with this nonsense, and that is just what this is is complete nonsense. Smith is the starter, get over it and move on.
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least.

When Givens and Branch left NE did the Pats not invest a high 2nd in Chad Jackson ? Trade a 2nd for Wes Welker and then trade for Randy Moss ?

What about the Colts investing a 1st round pick in Anthony Gonzalez when they had Harrison, Wayne and Clark ?

Seems they took measures to accommodate their QB's and cater to their strengths. Both teams also had the luxury of having very good OC's (Weis and Moore) who were able to mentor their offensive staffs so they could promote from within (Mcdaniels and now BB is working with Bill O'Brien albeit the Pats have no OC, while the Colts had Christensen who has been an OC). Both teams also have great OL coaches (Mudd & Scarnecchia). We haven't had those luxuries with our staff and haven't had OC's here long enough to help mentor the coaches we have to our offensive system.

Point in case good teams play to their QB's strengths and cater to them as opposed to trying to make their QB fit what they want to do.

Need further proof.....Big Ben and Pittsburgh's smash mouth style opened up more under Tomlin when Arians and Ben decided to open up the passing game....since the Steelers have drafted Holmes & Sweed to continue to try and improve the weapons for their passing game.Again another team that had the luxury of promoting the new OC from within.

The one thing we never did was give Smith or this offense the weapons it needed for a chance at a successful passing game outside of a WR with a troubled past in Antonio Bryant and a WR who appeared on his downside and couldn't catch a cold let alone a pass (Jackson). We never invested 1st day picks or to our knowledge went after higher profile WR's through FA or the draft (Dwayne Bowe was a plan B). Instead we give Sullivan water and expect him to be Jesus and turn it into wine. We have invested much in the OL and coupled with poor coaching never got much if anything out of it.

Your so f**king ignorant and you choose to be blind to the actual facts it's absurd.


Antonio Bryant and DJax were both successful receivers before they came to SF. And on that note, so was A. Lelie. Does it suck that we never signed a TO or Randy Moss type player for Alex Smith ? Sure. But he got his shot with good dependable receivers, WITH Gore and VD playing out of the backfield for him.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Smith's deficiencies may have prevented any of those receivers to have successful stints in SF ? Im sure when Antonio Bryant called him out, you were probably first in line to label him a "hater"; and when Nolan felt apologetic for giving up too soon on Bryant, you probably felt Nolan was a "retard" as well.

The fact that you have to resort to petty name calling shows the inadequacies of your posts. I usually wait until you post at least 10 times in a given thread before I respond. I'll do the same after 10 more.

First of all, Bryant got released because he resisted arrest. Plus he was a loudmouth. Oh yeah, character means nothing.

Secondly DJax was a waste of 4th round pick. I've never seen anyone drop more passes in one year. DJax with his stupid chinstrap.

Keep going on thinking that everything that's gone wrong with this offense the past couple years is Smith's fault. Your reaching bigtime dude.


  • Ether
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,502
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least.

When Givens and Branch left NE did the Pats not invest a high 2nd in Chad Jackson ? Trade a 2nd for Wes Welker and then trade for Randy Moss ?

What about the Colts investing a 1st round pick in Anthony Gonzalez when they had Harrison, Wayne and Clark ?

Seems they took measures to accommodate their QB's and cater to their strengths. Both teams also had the luxury of having very good OC's (Weis and Moore) who were able to mentor their offensive staffs so they could promote from within (Mcdaniels and now BB is working with Bill O'Brien albeit the Pats have no OC, while the Colts had Christensen who has been an OC). Both teams also have great OL coaches (Mudd & Scarnecchia). We haven't had those luxuries with our staff and haven't had OC's here long enough to help mentor the coaches we have to our offensive system.

Point in case good teams play to their QB's strengths and cater to them as opposed to trying to make their QB fit what they want to do.

Need further proof.....Big Ben and Pittsburgh's smash mouth style opened up more under Tomlin when Arians and Ben decided to open up the passing game....since the Steelers have drafted Holmes & Sweed to continue to try and improve the weapons for their passing game.Again another team that had the luxury of promoting the new OC from within.

The one thing we never did was give Smith or this offense the weapons it needed for a chance at a successful passing game outside of a WR with a troubled past in Antonio Bryant and a WR who appeared on his downside and couldn't catch a cold let alone a pass (Jackson). We never invested 1st day picks or to our knowledge went after higher profile WR's through FA or the draft (Dwayne Bowe was a plan B). Instead we give Sullivan water and expect him to be Jesus and turn it into wine. We have invested much in the OL and coupled with poor coaching never got much if anything out of it.

Your so f**king ignorant and you choose to be blind to the actual facts it's absurd.


Antonio Bryant and DJax were both successful receivers before they came to SF. And on that note, so was A. Lelie. Does it suck that we never signed a TO or Randy Moss type player for Alex Smith ? Sure. But he got his shot with good dependable receivers, WITH Gore and VD playing out of the backfield for him.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Smith's deficiencies may have prevented any of those receivers to have successful stints in SF ? Im sure when Antonio Bryant called him out, you were probably first in line to label him a "hater"; and when Nolan felt apologetic for giving up too soon on Bryant, you probably felt Nolan was a "retard" as well.

The fact that you have to resort to petty name calling shows the inadequacies of your posts. I usually wait until you post at least 10 times in a given thread before I respond. I'll do the same after 10 more.

Of the 3 Receivers you named, only Darrell Jackson had crossed 1000 yards more than once before coming to SF... Not sure how successful you thought they were to begin with?
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least.

When Givens and Branch left NE did the Pats not invest a high 2nd in Chad Jackson ? Trade a 2nd for Wes Welker and then trade for Randy Moss ?

What about the Colts investing a 1st round pick in Anthony Gonzalez when they had Harrison, Wayne and Clark ?

Seems they took measures to accommodate their QB's and cater to their strengths. Both teams also had the luxury of having very good OC's (Weis and Moore) who were able to mentor their offensive staffs so they could promote from within (Mcdaniels and now BB is working with Bill O'Brien albeit the Pats have no OC, while the Colts had Christensen who has been an OC). Both teams also have great OL coaches (Mudd & Scarnecchia). We haven't had those luxuries with our staff and haven't had OC's here long enough to help mentor the coaches we have to our offensive system.

Point in case good teams play to their QB's strengths and cater to them as opposed to trying to make their QB fit what they want to do.

Need further proof.....Big Ben and Pittsburgh's smash mouth style opened up more under Tomlin when Arians and Ben decided to open up the passing game....since the Steelers have drafted Holmes & Sweed to continue to try and improve the weapons for their passing game.Again another team that had the luxury of promoting the new OC from within.

The one thing we never did was give Smith or this offense the weapons it needed for a chance at a successful passing game outside of a WR with a troubled past in Antonio Bryant and a WR who appeared on his downside and couldn't catch a cold let alone a pass (Jackson). We never invested 1st day picks or to our knowledge went after higher profile WR's through FA or the draft (Dwayne Bowe was a plan B). Instead we give Sullivan water and expect him to be Jesus and turn it into wine. We have invested much in the OL and coupled with poor coaching never got much if anything out of it.

Your so f**king ignorant and you choose to be blind to the actual facts it's absurd.


Antonio Bryant and DJax were both successful receivers before they came to SF. And on that note, so was A. Lelie. Does it suck that we never signed a TO or Randy Moss type player for Alex Smith ? Sure. But he got his shot with good dependable receivers, WITH Gore and VD playing out of the backfield for him.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Smith's deficiencies may have prevented any of those receivers to have successful stints in SF ? Im sure when Antonio Bryant called him out, you were probably first in line to label him a "hater"; and when Nolan felt apologetic for giving up too soon on Bryant, you probably felt Nolan was a "retard" as well.

The fact that you have to resort to petty name calling shows the inadequacies of your posts. I usually wait until you post at least 10 times in a given thread before I respond. I'll do the same after 10 more.

Man you are just running yourself into the ground, it is sad how you carry on with this nonsense, and that is just what this is is complete nonsense. Smith is the starter, get over it and move on.
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by 9ermj:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Here you go again! citing only partial statements as facts, you work for Fox News? Meyer never said Smith was crap as you clearly imply, he said he was non functional UNTIL he knew all there was to know about an offense, I don't know about what Young and Rice said but your other sources are questionable at best.You started this thread to get this kind of response so please stop with the feigned indiganation



OK....so Urban Meyer says Alex Smith is nonfunctional unless he knows an offense, right ? Lets say for some God forsaken reason Raye ends up leaving a year or 2 from ,now and we get an OC with a completely different offensive philosophy ?

Then what ? I guess you'll be ok with going back to square one and allowing Alex to "learn" the new offense for another year or so.

Surprise!!! The new OC will continue to run the Same Scheme with his own flavor mixed in.

Has that EVER in the history of the game of Football, not been what has happened when one OC takes over a SUCCESSFUL Offense from the prior OC? It's only when it's NOT successful do OCs' use a different Offense.

Case in point the WCO was installed and run by the 49ers from '79-'03. How many OCs' did we have in that span? Yeah.

But dude seriously...n/m the rest of what I was going to say could be taken out of context. Much like our "FoS" debate has been.

~Ceadder


Hmmmm, and what say you about our offensive scheme after Norv Turner left ? Didnt work out too well, now did it ?

Woulda been nice if Hostler had a background in Offense now wouldn't it? He only worked as the QB coach for what a year or so?

Do you know what his background is in though? DEFENSE.

That's like taking an ex DBack and tellin him to run the WCO after he's position coached in that scheme for a year. He will get OWNED unless he's had more exposure to it.

Remember now once Ted Tolner came aboard Hostler's play calling got a little better. But not even Tolner can teach someone an Offensive system virtually overnight.

I digress though, more spin and more spin. It's what I've come to expect from you.

Roll on Don Quixote, roll on.

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Dec 5, 2009 at 17:29:23 ]
  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by 9ermj:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Here you go again! citing only partial statements as facts, you work for Fox News? Meyer never said Smith was crap as you clearly imply, he said he was non functional UNTIL he knew all there was to know about an offense, I don't know about what Young and Rice said but your other sources are questionable at best.You started this thread to get this kind of response so please stop with the feigned indiganation



OK....so Urban Meyer says Alex Smith is nonfunctional unless he knows an offense, right ? Lets say for some God forsaken reason Raye ends up leaving a year or 2 from ,now and we get an OC with a completely different offensive philosophy ?

Then what ? I guess you'll be ok with going back to square one and allowing Alex to "learn" the new offense for another year or so.

Surprise!!! The new OC will continue to run the Same Scheme with his own flavor mixed in.

Has that EVER in the history of the game of Football, not been what has happened when one OC takes over a SUCCESSFUL Offense from the prior OC? It's only when it's NOT successful do OCs' use a different Offense.

Case in point the WCO was installed and run by the 49ers from '79-'03. How many OCs' did we have in that span? Yeah.

But dude seriously...n/m the rest of what I was going to say could be taken out of context. Much like our "FoS" debate has been.

~Ceadder


Hmmmm, and what say you about our offensive scheme after Norv Turner left ? Didnt work out too well, now did it ?

Woulda been nice if Hostler had a background in Offense now wouldn't it? He only worked as the QB coach for what a year or so?

Do you know what his background is in though? DEFENSE.

That's like taking an ex DBack and tellin him to run the WCO after he's position coached in that scheme for a year. He will get OWNED unless he's had more exposure to it.

Remember now once Ted Tolner came aboard Hostler's play calling got a little better. But not even Tolner can teach someone an Offensive system virtually overnight.

I digress though, more spin and more spin. It's what I've come to expect from you.

Roll on Don Quixote, roll on.

~Ceadder

So I just nullified your post that good OCs are always replaced by good OCs. The difference is that you have a good QB that can make a smooth transition and adjust accordingly to the plays he's given. As Ive said, Alex is the type of guy that needs everything to be perfect for things to go right.

"And the wheels on Alex's bus go round and round, round and round, etc......"

Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least.

When Givens and Branch left NE did the Pats not invest a high 2nd in Chad Jackson ? Trade a 2nd for Wes Welker and then trade for Randy Moss ?

What about the Colts investing a 1st round pick in Anthony Gonzalez when they had Harrison, Wayne and Clark ?

Seems they took measures to accommodate their QB's and cater to their strengths. Both teams also had the luxury of having very good OC's (Weis and Moore) who were able to mentor their offensive staffs so they could promote from within (Mcdaniels and now BB is working with Bill O'Brien albeit the Pats have no OC, while the Colts had Christensen who has been an OC). Both teams also have great OL coaches (Mudd & Scarnecchia). We haven't had those luxuries with our staff and haven't had OC's here long enough to help mentor the coaches we have to our offensive system.

Point in case good teams play to their QB's strengths and cater to them as opposed to trying to make their QB fit what they want to do.

Need further proof.....Big Ben and Pittsburgh's smash mouth style opened up more under Tomlin when Arians and Ben decided to open up the passing game....since the Steelers have drafted Holmes & Sweed to continue to try and improve the weapons for their passing game.Again another team that had the luxury of promoting the new OC from within.

The one thing we never did was give Smith or this offense the weapons it needed for a chance at a successful passing game outside of a WR with a troubled past in Antonio Bryant and a WR who appeared on his downside and couldn't catch a cold let alone a pass (Jackson). We never invested 1st day picks or to our knowledge went after higher profile WR's through FA or the draft (Dwayne Bowe was a plan B). Instead we give Sullivan water and expect him to be Jesus and turn it into wine. We have invested much in the OL and coupled with poor coaching never got much if anything out of it.

Your so f**king ignorant and you choose to be blind to the actual facts it's absurd.


Antonio Bryant and DJax were both successful receivers before they came to SF. And on that note, so was A. Lelie. Does it suck that we never signed a TO or Randy Moss type player for Alex Smith ? Sure. But he got his shot with good dependable receivers, WITH Gore and VD playing out of the backfield for him.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe Smith's deficiencies may have prevented any of those receivers to have successful stints in SF ? Im sure when Antonio Bryant called himout, you were probably first in line to label him a "hater"; and when Nolan felt apologetic for giving up too soon on Bryant, you probably felt Nolan was a "retard" as well.

The fact that you have to resort to petty name calling shows the inadequacies of your posts. I usually wait until you post at least 10 times in a given thread before I respond. I'll do the same after 10 more.

Ummmmm NO they weren't Bryant was a FA because he was let go due to substance abuse. He's the Anti Cris Carter.

And DJack? That guy had more drops in one year than TO has his entire career. That's why when the Hawks had the Receivers in place they let him go to FA status.

And Lelie was held back by SULLIVAN not Alex. What you think that Hill would be able to take the shots down the field to these guys in Alex's place???What the heck are you smokin over there anyway?Whatever it is it's affecting your judgement. Expecially this...

"Did it ever occur to you that maybe Smith's deficiencies may have prevented any of those receivers to have successful stints in SF ?"

It's possible but highly doubtful. The Line was just as abysmal if not more so. Cause Refs would LOOK to throw flags on Kwame. I truly do not know what he did to tick them off but they definitely had it out for the guy.

And btw? If it was ALL Alex as you intone? Davis wouldn't even be sniffing the Pro Bowl this year. Balls that he's put RIGHT IN the bread basket, on the numbers in traffic etc... would be getting picked like ripe apples fresh from the tree.

Just stop man just stop. We get that you hate the guy. It's blatantly obvious how you roll from one bad critique to another when people give you facts. But you DON'T have any facts to support you THIS season. All you can do is point to the past and criticize. But THIS season he's running a system he's comfortable with and HOPEFULLY this trend of success with it will continue.

I'm not the Great Carnack. I can't see the future. But I do know that it does look so bright that I gotta wear shades, I gotta wear shades.

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Dec 5, 2009 at 17:44:45 ]
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by 9ermj:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Here you go again! citing only partial statements as facts, you work for Fox News? Meyer never said Smith was crap as you clearly imply, he said he was non functional UNTIL he knew all there was to know about an offense, I don't know about what Young and Rice said but your other sources are questionable at best.You started this thread to get this kind of response so please stop with the feigned indiganation



OK....so Urban Meyer says Alex Smith is nonfunctional unless he knows an offense, right ? Lets say for some God forsaken reason Raye ends up leaving a year or 2 from ,now and we get an OC with a completely different offensive philosophy ?

Then what ? I guess you'll be ok with going back to square one and allowing Alex to "learn" the new offense for another year or so.

Surprise!!! The new OC will continue to run the Same Scheme with his own flavor mixed in.

Has that EVER in the history of the game of Football, not been what has happened when one OC takes over a SUCCESSFUL Offense from the prior OC? It's only when it's NOT successful do OCs' use a different Offense.

Case in point the WCO was installed and run by the 49ers from '79-'03. How many OCs' did we have in that span? Yeah.

But dude seriously...n/m the rest of what I was going to say could be taken out of context. Much like our "FoS" debate has been.

~Ceadder


Hmmmm, and what say you about our offensive scheme after Norv Turner left ? Didnt work out too well, now did it ?

Woulda been nice if Hostler had a background in Offense now wouldn't it? He only worked as the QB coach for what a year or so?

Do you know what his background is in though? DEFENSE.

That's like taking an ex DBack and tellin him to run the WCO after he's position coached in that scheme for a year. He will get OWNED unless he's had more exposure to it.

Remember now once Ted Tolner came aboard Hostler's play calling got a little better. But not even Tolner can teach someone an Offensive system virtually overnight.

I digress though, more spin and more spin. It's what I've come to expect from you.

Roll on Don Quixote, roll on.

~Ceadder

So I just nullified your post that good OCs are always replaced by good OCs. The difference is that you have a good QB that can make a smooth transition and adjust accordingly to the plays he's given. As Ive said, Alex is the type of guy that needs everything to be perfect for things to go right.

"And the wheels on Alex's bus go round and round, round and round, etc......"


The ONLY thing you nullified was what was left of your common sense when you started sniffing glue. That was the most pathetic instance I have ever seen someone dredge up.

Oooooh lets' point to an instance where we COULDN'T replace a solid OC with a solid OC.

Your point was retarded.

~Ceadder
Well ZRF80 you changed my mind Alex Smith is a bum.

If he hadn't lost the competition with Hill...

Davis would be on pace for 30-35 TDs' this season absolutely DESTROYING the mark set by Gates.

So no need to debate with me any further. You got my vote.

Why wait til the end of the season? Run him out of Quest field on a rail and little kids beating on him with sticks.

Put Shaun Hill back in and let Davis have the spot w/o argument because the King is dead long live the King.

~Ceadder
  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Well ZRF80 you changed my mind Alex Smith is a bum.

If he hadn't lost the competition with Hill...

Davis would be on pace for 30-35 TDs' this season absolutely DESTROYING the mark set by Gates.

So no need to debate with me any further. You got my vote.

Why wait til the end of the season? Run him out of Quest field on a rail and little kids beating on him with sticks.

Put Shaun Hill back in and let Davis have the spot w/o argument because the King is dead long live the King.

~Ceadder

I can see that Ive gotten into your head. I hope you're not losing any sleep over all this.........
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Well ZRF80 you changed my mind Alex Smith is a bum.

If he hadn't lost the competition with Hill...

Davis would be on pace for 30-35 TDs' this season absolutely DESTROYING the mark set by Gates.

So no need to debate with me any further. You got my vote.

Why wait til the end of the season? Run him out of Quest field on a rail and little kids beating on him with sticks.

Put Shaun Hill back in and let Davis have the spot w/o argument because the King is dead long live the King.

~Ceadder

I can see that Ive gotten into your head. I hope you're not losing any sleep over all this.........

It's obvious that you don't understand sarcasm either.

Though notice how CONVENIENTLY you bypass(twice now) the answers to your questions in the Steve Young thread. Nevermind that you called me out on them suggesting that I stated things I didn't say. So I brought it to your attention.

But I forgot your attention span is so limited (ADHD Diagnosis maybe?) or it doesn't fit your opinion so you dismiss it.

Care to recant on your assertion that I called any of the "experts" idiots or stupid or anything that derogatory? Or do you think ignoring the bull in the China shop actually works?

If you need the link to the thread I can give you that too and give you the post number so that you can double check the validity of my source? I got nothin to hide.

Cause unlike you I do tell my friends they are FoS when they are. It's the Irish in me. Got no time for mincing words.

So as they say put up or...

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Dec 5, 2009 at 19:11:40 ]
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by darkknight49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Uh huh, that's right they wouldn't.

If you don't knock off the instigating posts (i.e. making inferences at my expense) I'm going to see to it you get flagged and sent back 15 yards.

I never ONCE stated that any of those named in this latest diatribe of yours doesn't know anything about Football. I dare you to dig something contradicting my claim up. If not then you best stow it.

I'm laid back and can take a joke. But when people start making claims that I stated something and those claims ain't true? It gets them broke. Whether verbally or physically. In your case it will be within the confines of the system. You purposely instigate things and it's time you just stop.

You've done this now TWICE in this thread. Don't make this mistake a 3rd time.

Your arguments are insane and if I had to do it all over again in '05 I would still be happy that we got Smith. Only I would hope that we didn't just rush him on the field the way Coach Nolan did.

~Ceadder


Or else what ? You're going to PM one of the mods ? Geez, grow up.

And I dont have time to go through all your foolish rants, but I remember you saying that Young was "full of s**t" because of the comments he made about Smith/Gore. You've also, on multiple occasions, questioned the ability of Merril Hoge and Ron Jaworski on breaking down gamefilm when it comes to Smith.

Now go edit your posts, before someone starts investigating........

FoS does NOT mean they are "stupid", "dumb", "morons", "idiots","obtuse","retarded","ill prepared for Kindergarten", or any other term that you would use to degrade a person's intelligence. And trust me I have had a College level reading and writing aptitude since I was in 6th grade. So if you WANT to push this I'll make you cry with how little you actually know.

You damn right I stated that Steve was FoS. I've done it on three occasions now prior to THIS post which makes it 4.

He was FoS regarding Smith. Basically claiming that Alex was the reason the team went to the Spread. Ummmm NO Steve they went to the Spread because the Line CAN'T protect him in a Run first Offense. Nevermind they can't push anyone OFF the LoS to give Frank the room to Run. But...

He was ALSO FoS about Smith in that he basically said(paraphrasing now so bare with me...) that if Alex can't learn to stand under Center... Ummmm didn't Alex stand under Center in '06 and a good portion of '07? Did he not read the Defenses then? If not how did he adjust his game to WIN any games at all?

And NOW it's all about now that we adjusted our Offense for Alex... we should just trade Frank. To which I will again stand by my stance that Steve is FoS.

As for Hodge and Jaws? You ASKED me what I thought of what a bunch of people said. Nevermind that some of the things you stated were completely taken out of context, I answered each addendum to the best of what you asked. Now you state that I bad mouthed em. I did not, but if you wish to dispute this I can find it and prove to you otherwise. It's just that simple.

This does NOT mean that I do not listen to them nor does it mean they are stupid. It just means that I did not agree with what they said at the time that they said it.

And yes. With a 75% warning by my name rather than getting ticked off enough to give you what you so richly deserve I will do the one thing I have NEVER done here. I will "run to the mods" and have them deal with you. You are purposely instigating. And if you do not knock it off I will follow through with the intent outlined to you earlier.

Thank you.

~Ceadder


Im glad that you pointed out your mastering of reading comprehension in the 6th grade. But to most people, saying that someone is full of s**t is pretty much saying their analysis of a player is invalid, and said analyst shouldnt be taken seriously. Dont try to dance around the subject. It makes no sense to contradict your own sentences.

This is not instigating; it's calling you out on your own words. You wanted proof; I gave it to you. Now swallow your pride. Id rather take the word of a HOF QB who played with a vast array of olines (both good and bad) during his career than someone that sits back, while sipping wine, and tries to find all the mistakes that everyone else made (in a given play) to excuse Alex Smith.

Like I said, grow up. Its a message board. If you cant take the heat, just dont reply. Crying to the mods wont get you any brownie points. Enjoy the game tomorrow.

Now you are FoS.

Which means your argument(s) lack(s)s validity. No more no less.

P.S. Btw so you know, I had to dig for this. In any case you stated I said something I didn't I never disagreed with you that I said Steve was FoS. In fact I even agreed with you. Can I be blamed for your ignorance of how the term is used? I think not.

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Dec 5, 2009 at 19:22:59 ]
  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Well ZRF80 you changed my mind Alex Smith is a bum.

If he hadn't lost the competition with Hill...

Davis would be on pace for 30-35 TDs' this season absolutely DESTROYING the mark set by Gates.

So no need to debate with me any further. You got my vote.

Why wait til the end of the season? Run him out of Quest field on a rail and little kids beating on him with sticks.

Put Shaun Hill back in and let Davis have the spot w/o argument because the King is dead long live the King.

~Ceadder

I can see that Ive gotten into your head. I hope you're not losing any sleep over all this.........

It's obvious that you don't understand sarcasm either.

Though notice how CONVENIENTLY you bypass(twice now) the answers to your questions in the Steve Young thread. Nevermind that you called me out on them suggesting that I stated things I didn't say. So I brought it to your attention.

But I forgot your attention span is so limited (ADHD Diagnosis maybe?) or it doesn't fit your opinion so you dismiss it.

Care to recant on your assertion that I called any of the "experts" idiots or stupid or anything that derogatory? Or do you think ignoring the bull in the China shop actually works?

If you need the link to the thread I can give you that too and give you the post number so that you can double check the validity of my source? I got nothin to hide.

Cause unlike you I do tell my friends they are FoS when they are. It's the Irish in me. Got no time for mincing words.

So as they say put up or...

~Ceadder

Sorry boss. It's unfortunate that you cant go back and change your words. Next time think twice before calling a HOF QB out. Consider that you might look foolish doing so. As I said, I'll take the words of Hodge, Jaworski, and Young over yours any day, even if you think they are idiots.
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Well ZRF80 you changed my mind Alex Smith is a bum.

If he hadn't lost the competition with Hill...

Davis would be on pace for 30-35 TDs' this season absolutely DESTROYING the mark set by Gates.

So no need to debate with me any further. You got my vote.

Why wait til the end of the season? Run him out of Quest field on a rail and little kids beating on him with sticks.

Put Shaun Hill back in and let Davis have the spot w/o argument because the King is dead long live the King.

~Ceadder

I can see that Ive gotten into your head. I hope you're not losing any sleep over all this.........

It's obvious that you don't understand sarcasm either.

Though notice how CONVENIENTLY you bypass(twice now) the answers to your questions in the Steve Young thread. Nevermind that you called me out on them suggesting that I stated things I didn't say. So I brought it to your attention.

But I forgot your attention span is so limited (ADHD Diagnosis maybe?) or it doesn't fit your opinion so you dismiss it.

Care to recant on your assertion that I called any of the "experts" idiots or stupid or anything that derogatory? Or do you think ignoring the bull in the China shop actually works?

If you need the link to the thread I can give you that too and give you the post number so that you can double check the validity of my source? I got nothin to hide.

Cause unlike you I do tell my friends they are FoS when they are. It's the Irish in me. Got no time for mincing words.

So as they say put up or...

~Ceadder

Sorry boss. It's unfortunate that you cant go back and change your words. Next time think twice before calling a HOF QB out. Consider that you might look foolish doing so. As I said, I'll take the words of Hodge, Jaworski, and Young over yours any day, even if you think they are idiots.

Why? Great players aren't infallible. Ceadder did a pretty good job of pointing out the flaws in Young's analysis.

[ Edited by taney71 on Dec 5, 2009 at 19:23:44 ]
This thread has run it's course