Alex Smith's Max Potential = Brad Johnson

ALEX SMITH = EMMITT SMITH

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Uh huh, that's right they wouldn't.

If you don't knock off the instigating posts (i.e. making inferences at my expense) I'm going to see to it you get flagged and sent back 15 yards.

I never ONCE stated that any of those named in this latest diatribe of yours doesn't know anything about Football. I dare you to dig something contradicting my claim up. If not then you best stow it.

I'm laid back and can take a joke. But when people start making claims that I stated something and those claims ain't true? It gets them broke. Whether verbally or physically. In your case it will be within the confines of the system. You purposely instigate things and it's time you just stop.

You've done this now TWICE in this thread. Don't make this mistake a 3rd time.

Your arguments are insane and if I had to do it all over again in '05 I would still be happy that we got Smith. Only I would hope that we didn't just rush him on the field the way Coach Nolan did.

~Ceadder

Or else what ? You're going to PM one of the mods ? Geez, grow up.

And I dont have time to go through all your foolish rants, but I remember you saying that Young was "full of s**t" because of the comments he made about Smith/Gore. You've also, on multiple occasions, questioned the ability of Merril Hoge and Ron Jaworski on breaking down gamefilm when it comes to Smith.

Now go edit your posts, before someone starts investigating........

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Here you go again! citing only partial statements as facts, you work for Fox News? Meyer never said Smith was crap as you clearly imply, he said he was non functional UNTIL he knew all there was to know about an offense, I don't know about what Young and Rice said but your other sources are questionable at best.You started this thread to get this kind of response so please stop with the feigned indiganation

Originally posted by BHulman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

I dont get you guys. I dont care for Smith. I only care for the 49ers. If Smith throws for 500 yards next week and a perfect QB rating, what do you think ? Im gonna go hide in my closet and cry ? Hells no. I'll be out there with every other fan cheering my TEAM, hoping that they will beat Zona next week.

This isnt a personal vendetta I have against Smith. It's my personal assessment of him after 5 years of watching him "grow" as a QB. This thread isnt about my personal hate for Smioth, but rather your (and the rest of the Smith supporters) anguish at me for not supporting him. If I had titled this thread Alex Smith's Max Potential = Tom Brady, would I have gotten the same response ? Not even close.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by BHulman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

I dont get you guys. I dont care for Smith. I only care for the 49ers. If Smith throws for 500 yards next week and a perfect QB rating, what do you think ? Im gonna go hide in my closet and cry ? Hells no. I'll be out there with every other fan cheering my TEAM, hoping that they will beat Zona next week.

This isnt a personal vendetta I have against Smith. It's my personal assessment of him after 5 years of watching him "grow" as a QB. This thread isnt about my personal hate for Smioth, but rather your (and the rest of the Smith supporters) anguish at me for not supporting him. If I had titled this thread Alex Smith's Max Potential = Tom Brady, would I have gotten the same response ? Not even close.

ok look there is only 1 peyton manning and 1 tom brady these Qbs dont just come out every year no one is even saying that he will be as good as them but we do have an above average QB who can be serviceable for us in next couple of years

Originally posted by 9ermj:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Here you go again! citing only partial statements as facts, you work for Fox News? Meyer never said Smith was crap as you clearly imply, he said he was non functional UNTIL he knew all there was to know about an offense, I don't know about what Young and Rice said but your other sources are questionable at best.You started this thread to get this kind of response so please stop with the feigned indiganation

OK....so Urban Meyer says Alex Smith is nonfunctional unless he knows an offense, right ? Lets say for some God forsaken reason Raye ends up leaving a year or 2 from ,now and we get an OC with a completely different offensive philosophy ?

Then what ? I guess you'll be ok with going back to square one and allowing Alex to "learn" the new offense for another year or so.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by BHulman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

I dont get you guys. I dont care for Smith. I only care for the 49ers. If Smith throws for 500 yards next week and a perfect QB rating, what do you think ? Im gonna go hide in my closet and cry ? Hells no. I'll be out there with every other fan cheering my TEAM, hoping that they will beat Zona next week.

This isnt a personal vendetta I have against Smith. It's my personal assessment of him after 5 years of watching him "grow" as a QB. This thread isnt about my personal hate for Smioth, but rather your (and the rest of the Smith supporters) anguish at me for not supporting him. If I had titled this thread Alex Smith's Max Potential = Tom Brady, would I have gotten the same response ? Not even close.

My bad. From reading so many of your posts I thought that you just really had a thing against Smith. Thanks for clearing it up.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by BHulman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

I dont get you guys. I dont care for Smith. I only care for the 49ers. If Smith throws for 500 yards next week and a perfect QB rating, what do you think ? Im gonna go hide in my closet and cry ? Hells no. I'll be out there with every other fan cheering my TEAM, hoping that they will beat Zona next week.

This isnt a personal vendetta I have against Smith. It's my personal assessment of him after 5 years of watching him "grow" as a QB. This thread isnt about my personal hate for Smioth, but rather your (and the rest of the Smith supporters) anguish at me for not supporting him. If I had titled this thread Alex Smith's Max Potential = Tom Brady, would I have gotten the same response ? Not even close.

My guess is no one (who doesn't want to come off as an idiot) would have been willing to say that. Wait and see seems to be the considered consensus. Many are saying they see progress and growth. Some don't. But, barring injury, he has the rest of the season. So why is there the need to make authoritative declarations like he is the next Ryan Leaf or his ceiling is Brad Johnson? It will be someone else next week based on Alex's performance this Sunday. But the comparsion will always be made to cast Smith is as poor a light as the current circumstances allow. Those seem like responses where emotions have gotten the best of people.

[ Edited by BHulman on Dec 4, 2009 at 21:51:01 ]

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by BHulman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

I dont get you guys. I dont care for Smith. I only care for the 49ers. If Smith throws for 500 yards next week and a perfect QB rating, what do you think ? Im gonna go hide in my closet and cry ? Hells no. I'll be out there with every other fan cheering my TEAM, hoping that they will beat Zona next week.

This isnt a personal vendetta I have against Smith. It's my personal assessment of him after 5 years of watching him "grow" as a QB. This thread isnt about my personal hate for Smioth, but rather your (and the rest of the Smith supporters) anguish at me for not supporting him. If I had titled this thread Alex Smith's Max Potential = Tom Brady, would I have gotten the same response ? Not even close.

ok look there is only 1 peyton manning and 1 tom brady these Qbs dont just come out every year no one is even saying that he will be as good as them but we do have an above average QB who can be serviceable for us in next couple of years

And that, my friend, was the simple answer I seeked when I started this thread. All I said was that I didnt feel that Smith could live up to the hype of a Brady or Manning, but could become an efficient QB like Brad Johnson. If that were the case, would people be satisfied with it or were they expecting more, especially since a lot of us grew up with Montana/Young ?

Apaarently, a lot of people took this as an insult.

Originally posted by ZRF80:
Would you guys prefer a Brad Johnson or Tom Brady for the next 10 years ?

Seriously. Assuming that Alex "pans" out, we all know that he will never become a Brady/Manning type player. He doesnt have the "it" factor, and can only function as a systems quarterback. In other words, feed him a playbook and expect him to execute. Basically, his career as a Niner will be similar to someone like Brad Johnson's (Vikings/Bucs).

Thats not to say that Brad Johnson wasnt effective. He was poised, accurate, moved the chains.....even won a Superbowl. But at the end, you knew he needed a lot going for him (eg defense, running game, etc.) in order to be successful.

So would you guys be okay with Smith, knowing that we will have our Brad Johnson (assuming he maxes out on potential) for the next 10-12 years ? A guy that will keep us close in games, but not be able to pull off the big one when needed ? Not to expect too much from him if the game goes down to the wire and he has to execute a 2 minute drill ?

Or would you guys prefer a Brady/Manning type player, able to adjust accordingly to game situations ? The ability to improvise, confuse defenses, have teams specifically gameplan against him ?

Be honest.......cause even the Smith supporters know that you cannot "teach" a QB to be great. Alex may become very effective, but he will never be like a Joe Montana/Steve Young mold.

What say you............is Brad Johnson "good" enough for the next 12 years ?

I can say I am stupider for having read this post.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by BHulman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

I dont get you guys. I dont care for Smith. I only care for the 49ers. If Smith throws for 500 yards next week and a perfect QB rating, what do you think ? Im gonna go hide in my closet and cry ? Hells no. I'll be out there with every other fan cheering my TEAM, hoping that they will beat Zona next week.

This isnt a personal vendetta I have against Smith. It's my personal assessment of him after 5 years of watching him "grow" as a QB. This thread isnt about my personal hate for Smioth, but rather your (and the rest of the Smith supporters) anguish at me for not supporting him. If I had titled this thread Alex Smith's Max Potential = Tom Brady, would I have gotten the same response ? Not even close.

ok look there is only 1 peyton manning and 1 tom brady these Qbs dont just come out every year no one is even saying that he will be as good as them but we do have an above average QB who can be serviceable for us in next couple of years

And that, my friend, was the simple answer I seeked when I started this thread. All I said was that I didnt feel that Smith could live up to the hype of a Brady or Manning, but could become an efficient QB like Brad Johnson. If that were the case, would people be satisfied with it or were they expecting more, especially since a lot of us grew up with Montana/Young ?

Apaarently, a lot of people took this as an insult.

Johnson won a superbowl so yes i would accept Smith being as good as Johnson. You were spoiled watching Young and Montana, as was I too. Great qbs often win a single Superbowl:Farve, Warner, Manning, and Young. If we put Smith in the wrong offense Brad Smith is his potential, which I then expect a single superbowl. If we pt him in the right offense who knows. Brees was considered to be very average in the NFL at the same age as Smith.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by BHulman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

McCarthy was already here when Smith was drafted and left for the Packers job. Turner also left for greener pastures. Hostler a haste hire made when it looked like there weren't many other good options and turned into a bust. Nolan brought in Martz in a desparate move to save his job. Singletary brought in Raye (after being turned down by others) to implement a run oriented offense. How did any of this have anything to do with Smith? Smith played a total of three healthy games for two OC's who were fired. Please explain how any of this was set up to cater to Smith? Smith or not, why wouldn't the Niners want a good OC?

The two biggest free-agents signings of the last four years were Clements and Justin Smith? That was for Alex I suppose?

Giving him the offense he needs? Does this mean drafting players to be playmakers? Yeah, why would any team want that?

You put great stock in what analysts, etc., say. Can we wait to see what they say a few weeks from now? Or is Merrill Hodge's prouncements the end all and be all. Hodge also said unequivocally that Vince Young would be a bust. Maybe he will be. But I bet most Titan fans are willing to hold judgement just a little longer.

Concerning Urban Myer: he said that once it clicks for Smith, he will be "lights out." Smith was 18 when Myer got him. By the time he was a junior, he led them to an undefeated season. My guess is that Smith's football IQ is probably higher now than it was when he was 18. But you want to take one part of Myer's statement about an 18-19 year old kid and make it the final word.

ZRF, just admit you don't like the kid and never will. You screech so loudly now (and keep making the same arguments over and over again) because you are actually now afraid he is going to succeed. Just admit it.

I dont get you guys. I dont care for Smith. I only care for the 49ers. If Smith throws for 500 yards next week and a perfect QB rating, what do you think ? Im gonna go hide in my closet and cry ? Hells no. I'll be out there with every other fan cheering my TEAM, hoping that they will beat Zona next week.

This isnt a personal vendetta I have against Smith. It's my personal assessment of him after 5 years of watching him "grow" as a QB. This thread isnt about my personal hate for Smioth, but rather your (and the rest of the Smith supporters) anguish at me for not supporting him. If I had titled this thread Alex Smith's Max Potential = Tom Brady, would I have gotten the same response ? Not even close.

It will have to be a perfect rating. Because if it is not I would be willing to bet you would be here to let us all know, in one guise or another, how any incompletion or interception was sure-fire proof that Alex is no good. Then there would be the rehash of all the arguments (Urban Meyer, Merril Hoge, FIVE YEARS, excuses, Shaun Hill, can't improvise, can't handle pressure, needs to be babied.) So, if he does have a perfect rating and throws for 500 yards, I will be interested to hear what you have to say. If he doesn't, I already know.

[ Edited by BHulman on Dec 4, 2009 at 22:23:08 ]

We have an important game and certain people are whining about how bad Smith is and how Hill is much better? Quit the whining and let's enjoy this game because it's one of the most important games we've had this decade.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Ok, I will repeat it for the last time. Smith has been in the league for FIVE YEARS ! What part of that do some of you not get ? I dont care if he was injured for part of that time. He could have used it to watch the game and learn it from the sidelines. He could have used it to study tape. He could have used it to adapt to the speed of the game. Combine that with the fact that he had started approx. 2 season's worth of games, he should be WAY ahead than where he currently is.

And no, I dont care about his age, his different OCs, his poor oline, etc. because Shaun Hill had to replace him with the same problems, but he didnt seem to have trouble (barr this season) adjusting accordingly.

Enough with the excuses.............

then you have failed to intelligently and objectively analyze a situation within it's context. In mathematics, the solution to an equation relies on all the variable to be accurate. The correct answer, or even a logical answer, cannot be achieved by removing variables you deem worthless.

They are deemed worthless if someone of lesser skill (eg Hill) is able to adjust to the same variables.

I'm assuming you're a shaun hill guy from these posts. From your first argument, you say that Hill replaced smith on a team with the same problems and didn't have trouble barring this season (which, is actually having trouble).

One, smith didn't play last year, so you can't say Hill did better than smith when you don't have any results for how smith did. In 07, The wonderous Hostler Offense kept the entire team back and Hill didn't play till the end of season against teams that were bad (Cin) or resting (TB). Hill didn't throw for more than 197 yards in any game that season.

You want to compare Hill to Smith, go ahead. But at least make it a logical argument. When people are trying to weigh the validity and plausibility of an argument, it's usually beast not to make your bias appear so profound. Many people won't take an argument seriously if that is the case.

Also, Im curious to know what were your expectations of smith when he was selected?

Forget the Hill vs. Smith debate. To put it simply, I think Hill is a better QB, but I have no problem with him sitting on the bench. He has also shown that he is not the future, and I wouldnt want to go through the same motions with him, as we are doing with Smith, in order to get a more efficient passing game. So that argument is moot. I was just pointing out that I dont think it's justified to use OCs and different offensive systems as excuses because Hill was productive in the same formats in which Smith failed.

However, for the bolded.........I know hindsight is 20/20. With that aside........knowing what you know now with Smith, if you were back in 2005 with the first overall pick and you knew all this would happen with Smith + the fact that Smith would finally have a complete game (and show promise) in his 5th year in the league..........would you have still wanted him ?

You can defend Smith all you want, but the one thing you cant debate is that we have definitely (as fans + coaches) gone to extraordinary measures to accomodate Smith, whether it was finding decent OCs, signing free agents to huge contracts, giving him the offense he needs, etc. I just find it a little too much, especially since the dividends have been very poor, to say the least. Combine this with all the statements we're getting from analysts (Hodge, Jaworski), former players (Antonio Bryant), and HOFers (Young, Rice), not to mention former coaches (Urban Meyer), and it doesnt look too good for Smith. But then again, as Ceadder would point out, those guys are just haters and wouldnt know football from their ass.

Uh huh, that's right they wouldn't.

If you don't knock off the instigating posts (i.e. making inferences at my expense) I'm going to see to it you get flagged and sent back 15 yards.

I never ONCE stated that any of those named in this latest diatribe of yours doesn't know anything about Football. I dare you to dig something contradicting my claim up. If not then you best stow it.

I'm laid back and can take a joke. But when people start making claims that I stated something and those claims ain't true? It gets them broke. Whether verbally or physically. In your case it will be within the confines of the system. You purposely instigate things and it's time you just stop.

You've done this now TWICE in this thread. Don't make this mistake a 3rd time.

Your arguments are insane and if I had to do it all over again in '05 I would still be happy that we got Smith. Only I would hope that we didn't just rush him on the field the way Coach Nolan did.

~Ceadder

Or else what ? You're going to PM one of the mods ? Geez, grow up.

And I dont have time to go through all your foolish rants, but I remember you saying that Young was "full of s**t" because of the comments he made about Smith/Gore. You've also, on multiple occasions, questioned the ability of Merril Hoge and Ron Jaworski on breaking down gamefilm when it comes to Smith.

Now go edit your posts, before someone starts investigating........

FoS does NOT mean they are "stupid", "dumb", "morons", "idiots","obtuse","retarded","ill prepared for Kindergarten", or any other term that you would use to degrade a person's intelligence. And trust me I have had a College level reading and writing aptitude since I was in 6th grade. So if you WANT to push this I'll make you cry with how little you actually know.

You damn right I stated that Steve was FoS. I've done it on three occasions now prior to THIS post which makes it 4.

He was FoS regarding Smith. Basically claiming that Alex was the reason the team went to the Spread. Ummmm NO Steve they went to the Spread because the Line CAN'T protect him in a Run first Offense. Nevermind they can't push anyone OFF the LoS to give Frank the room to Run. But...

He was ALSO FoS about Smith in that he basically said(paraphrasing now so bare with me...) that if Alex can't learn to stand under Center... Ummmm didn't Alex stand under Center in '06 and a good portion of '07? Did he not read the Defenses then? If not how did he adjust his game to WIN any games at all?

And NOW it's all about now that we adjusted our Offense for Alex... we should just trade Frank. To which I will again stand by my stance that Steve is FoS.

As for Hodge and Jaws? You ASKED me what I thought of what a bunch of people said. Nevermind that some of the things you stated were completely taken out of context, I answered each addendum to the best of what you asked. Now you state that I bad mouthed em. I did not, but if you wish to dispute this I can find it and prove to you otherwise. It's just that simple.

This does NOT mean that I do not listen to them nor does it mean they are stupid. It just means that I did not agree with what they said at the time that they said it.

And yes. With a 75% warning by my name rather than getting ticked off enough to give you what you so richly deserve I will do the one thing I have NEVER done here. I will "run to the mods" and have them deal with you. You are purposely instigating. And if you do not knock it off I will follow through with the intent outlined to you earlier.

Thank you.

~Ceadder