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General time to throw a ball

How long does Roethlisberger hold onto the ball? Not all good QB's get the ball out consistently under 3 secs.
Originally posted by SybErkRimInAL:
Originally posted by MadMartz:
I think Smiths problem is his long slow delivery. The guy looks like he is about to throw a 100 mph fastball the way he winds it way back.

agreed. Which is why he always has balls batted down by DL.

Yeah that too. I wish he would correct his mechanics but after this long its evident its not going to happen. He drops the ball back from almost his hip. Dangerous!
OK, I'm going to bite on the premise that Rodgers gets the ball out in 3 seconds. Now we are only talking about the Niners-Packers game right..My question is did he get rid of the ball at 3 seconds with his own offensive guys pushed back in his 'throwing space' or did it look like he can even hold the ball for another half a second and a nice throwing lane to connect with his receivers. I know we don't have a pass rush in the first half of that game so I'm going to lean towards the later of that question.

So it comes down to this question. What happened at 3 seconds for Rodgers may be very different from what happened at 2.8 seconds for Smith. Did Smith get a nice pocket and a throwing lane at the end of that 3 seconds to throw the ball or were there defenders in his face and grasping at him from all sides at any given plays at the end of the so call 3 second bench mark for qb.

This thread is just another lame attempt of trying to bash Smith
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
OK, I'm going to bite on the premise that Rodgers gets the ball out in 3 seconds. Now we are only talking about the Niners-Packers game right..My question is did he get rid of the ball at 3 seconds with his own offensive guys pushed back in his 'throwing space' or did it look like he can even hold the ball for another half a second and a nice throwing lane to connect with his receivers. I know we don't have a pass rush in the first half of that game so I'm going to lean towards the later of that question.

So it comes down to this question. What happened at 3 seconds for Rodgers may be very different from what happened at 2.8 seconds for Smith. Did Smith get a nice pocket and a throwing lane at the end of that 3 seconds to throw the ball or were there defenders in his face and grasping at him from all sides at any given plays at the end of the so call 3 second bench mark for qb.

This thread is just another lame attempt of trying to bash Smith

There were a number of times he released the ball at about 2 seconds and still got tapped immediately by the DL after the throw which would have been a less than 3 second sack if he held onto it.

Even on Smith's AND Rodgers' completions, they got the ball out WAY before 3 seconds. B. Roeth holds onto the ball longer because he can literally break a DL tackle. BTW, he's also usually near the top of the list when he is sacked.

I would just like to point out that 3 seconds is the MAXIMUM amount of time a QB should hold onto the ball.

Smith still telegraphs his throw. That messed up quick pass to Gore when Gore was at WR on the left side, Smith got the ball, took a little hop to set his feet but he did that in Gore's direction and then he cocked to make the throw. By this time, the play was already sniffed out and Gore had no chance at RAC.

Most completions, if completed on time, take far less than 3 seconds.

Just so people can legitamately call me a hater on this thread: I would like to point out that on the second deep completion to Crabs, the one that got challenged, it was underthrown and should have been a TD if thrown further as Crabs had a yard and a half on his defender.
Originally posted by MaliCali:
lol people who watch the game over again pretending to act like they are watching game film so they can analyze...

thats cute.
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by MaliCali:
lol people who watch the game over again pretending to act like they are watching game film so they can analyze...

thats cute.

lol, serious
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
OK, I'm going to bite on the premise that Rodgers gets the ball out in 3 seconds. Now we are only talking about the Niners-Packers game right..My question is did he get rid of the ball at 3 seconds with his own offensive guys pushed back in his 'throwing space' or did it look like he can even hold the ball for another half a second and a nice throwing lane to connect with his receivers. I know we don't have a pass rush in the first half of that game so I'm going to lean towards the later of that question.

So it comes down to this question. What happened at 3 seconds for Rodgers may be very different from what happened at 2.8 seconds for Smith. Did Smith get a nice pocket and a throwing lane at the end of that 3 seconds to throw the ball or were there defenders in his face and grasping at him from all sides at any given plays at the end of the so call 3 second bench mark for qb.

This thread is just another lame attempt of trying to bash Smith

There were a number of times he released the ball at about 2 seconds and still got tapped immediately by the DL after the throw which would have been a less than 3 second sack if he held onto it.

Even on Smith's AND Rodgers' completions, they got the ball out WAY before 3 seconds. B. Roeth holds onto the ball longer because he can literally break a DL tackle. BTW, he's also usually near the top of the list when he is sacked.

I would just like to point out that 3 seconds is the MAXIMUM amount of time a QB should hold onto the ball.

Smith still telegraphs his throw. That messed up quick pass to Gore when Gore was at WR on the left side, Smith got the ball, took a little hop to set his feet but he did that in Gore's direction and then he cocked to make the throw. By this time, the play was already sniffed out and Gore had no chance at RAC.

Most completions, if completed on time, take far less than 3 seconds.

Just so people can legitamately call me a hater on this thread: I would like to point out that on the second deep completion to Crabs, the one that got challenged, it was underthrown and should have been a TD if thrown further as Crabs had a yard and a half on his defender.

You stated Rodgers generally had 3 seconds to throw the ball, now you move him into the 2 second category qb. Rodgers release improved with your subsequent post.

Ok I'll buy that too. But it's still lame
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
OK, I'm going to bite on the premise that Rodgers gets the ball out in 3 seconds. Now we are only talking about the Niners-Packers game right..My question is did he get rid of the ball at 3 seconds with his own offensive guys pushed back in his 'throwing space' or did it look like he can even hold the ball for another half a second and a nice throwing lane to connect with his receivers. I know we don't have a pass rush in the first half of that game so I'm going to lean towards the later of that question.

So it comes down to this question. What happened at 3 seconds for Rodgers may be very different from what happened at 2.8 seconds for Smith. Did Smith get a nice pocket and a throwing lane at the end of that 3 seconds to throw the ball or were there defenders in his face and grasping at him from all sides at any given plays at the end of the so call 3 second bench mark for qb.

This thread is just another lame attempt of trying to bash Smith

There were a number of times he released the ball at about 2 seconds and still got tapped immediately by the DL after the throw which would have been a less than 3 second sack if he held onto it.

Even on Smith's AND Rodgers' completions, they got the ball out WAY before 3 seconds. B. Roeth holds onto the ball longer because he can literally break a DL tackle. BTW, he's also usually near the top of the list when he is sacked.

I would just like to point out that 3 seconds is the MAXIMUM amount of time a QB should hold onto the ball.

Smith still telegraphs his throw. That messed up quick pass to Gore when Gore was at WR on the left side, Smith got the ball, took a little hop to set his feet but he did that in Gore's direction and then he cocked to make the throw. By this time, the play was already sniffed out and Gore had no chance at RAC.

Most completions, if completed on time, take far less than 3 seconds.

Just so people can legitamately call me a hater on this thread: I would like to point out that on the second deep completion to Crabs, the one that got challenged, it was underthrown and should have been a TD if thrown further as Crabs had a yard and a half on his defender.

You stated Rodgers generally had 3 seconds to throw the ball, now you move him into the 2 second category qb. Rodgers release improved with your subsequent post.

Ok I'll buy that too. But it's still lame

Oh really? where did I state that. Why don't you do some research before you make false statements or roll your eyes.

Majority of timing of pass plays are less than 3 seconds. I only said the General rule is that the ball better be out of the QBs hand AT 3 seconds, which is true, but you guys think the OL sucks if our QB doesn't get 3 or more seconds. More than 3 seconds is a dominating pass blocking OL which rarely any team has.

A QB being able to read a defense plays a HUGE factor in how "well" an OL blocks.
I agree that 2.8 - 3.0 seconds is a good amount of time to throw the ball.

BUT

Not all pressure is equal. Pressure that disrupts throwing lanes and disrupts the timing of the throw during the drop back is much more important analysis. The problem with the OL isn't just that they are bad, but where they're bad - dead, smack in the middle at the OGs spots.

A lot of people pinpoint RT, but the most disruptive pressure comes up from the middle into the QBs face. Baas and Rachal have been horrid. They've essentially been turn-styles for the first few games of the season. Baas has gotten a little better, but Rachal has been terrible all season long save a couple plays here and there. This is the SAME reason why the 49ers can't be this "power rushing" team Singletary would like. The OGs are horrible. We can have great tackles, but if the middle is soft like a Twinkie, it's all for nothing.

Yes, we need to address RT, but Rachal's play IMHO has caused many more hurried throws, disrupted plays in the passing and running game (3rd and inches) than any other position on the OL - yet, Singletary keeps him on the field.

Opposing teams see this on film and exploit it. They run a blitz usually between one of the OG and the C, forcing Heitmann to double/help one or the other. Usually the blitz is designed to force help away from Rachal because they see him getting beat repeatedly in one-on-one match-ups. QB is disrupted, pass usually is incomplete or Alex has to roll to his right where Snyder also has problems with his man. This usually results in a sack, pick, incompletion or if we're lucky a positive play.

You would think that keeping the RB in to help with blitz pick-up would work more consistently, but it doesn't. Why because BOTH OGs are so ineffective that someone usually gets through with ease/free and the RB picks up that guy - the actual blitzer is then free to disrupt the QB. If we get a little bit better play from our OG, the rush isn't as much of an issue. Until this happens, we will continue to have problems in both the passing and running game.

Maybe this is a post for "how do we fix the OL" but I simply don't trust that Scott can find us good OGs that aren't already proven and Larry Allen was a Turner suggestion. The 49ers need to figure this out because it's the heart and soul of the offense.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Nov 25, 2009 at 10:09 AM ]
yea. I don't know how many times the defense was obviously blitzing and nothing was done to counter it. How bout calling an audible to have the WR on that side slant to where the blitzing defender was?
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I agree that 2.8 - 3.0 seconds is a good amount of time to throw the ball.

BUT

Not all pressure is equal. Pressure that disrupts throwing lanes and disrupts the timing of the throw during the drop back is much more important analysis. The problem with the OL isn't just that they are bad, but where they're bad - dead, smack in the middle at the OGs spots.

A lot of people pinpoint RT, but the most disruptive pressure comes up from the middle into the QBs face. Baas and Rachal have been horrid. They've essentially been turn-styles for the first few games of the season. Baas has gotten a little better, but Rachal has been terrible all season long save a couple plays here and there. This is the SAME reason why the 49ers can't be this "power rushing" team Singletary would like. The OGs are horrible. We can have great tackles, but if the middle is soft like a Twinkie, it's all for nothing.

Yes, we need to address RT, but Rachal's play IMHO has caused many more hurried throws, disrupted plays in the passing and running game (3rd and inches) than any other position on the OL - yet, Singletary keeps him on the field.

Opposing teams see this on film and exploit it. They run a blitz usually between one of the OG and the C, forcing Heitmann to double/help one or the other. Usually the blitz is designed to force help away from Heitmann because they see Rachal getting beat repeatedly in one-on-one match-ups. QB is disrupted, pass usually is incomplete or Alex has to roll to his right where Snyder also has problems with his man. This usually results in a sack, pick, incompletion or if we're lucky a positive play.

Maybe this is a post for "how do we fix the OL" but I simply don't trust that Scott can find us good OGs that aren't already proven and Larry Allen was a Turner suggestion. The 49ers need to figure this out because it's the heart and soul of the offense.

You're right, there is nothing a QB can do when there is immediate pressure up the middle. However, this hasn't been the case in this past game or in previous games. Yes, it happens once or twice in a game but not enough to make excuses for 3 INTs or 5 yards in a half.



Take a look at Rodgers, he side-stepped a often to FIND the passing lane. Let us hope Smith learns this because he tries to continuously throw through OL rather than shift over into the soft spot of the pocket which could give him even more time.

As for audibles and slants, Smith threw one quick slant to Crabtree to his back shoulder and Harris was right behind him for the "tipped ball" or to bat a bad throw down. If thrown accurately, Crabs makes the catch with 7 more yards after.

The second deep ball to Crabtree was underthrown and became a very difficult catch. If thrown accurately, it would have been a TD.


Same thing in the second half on a long pass to Bruce in the middle. Smith had 4 seconds to throw and he threw it AT Bruce rather than infront of Bruce. Bruce had to make a jump and catch it at his body. He had literally no on in front of him for 14 yards and would have gained a big one if Alex was more accurate and led him.

Also the quick pass to Gore with Gore at WR. You guys REALLY should take a look at these three passes.

You all should really look back at these four throws and you will see that Smith had time but his innacuracy made things not work as well as they should.

I will also give credit to Smith on the TD to Crabs and the fact that he is money on the Seam routes to Vernon.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I agree that 2.8 - 3.0 seconds is a good amount of time to throw the ball.

BUT

Not all pressure is equal. Pressure that disrupts throwing lanes and disrupts the timing of the throw during the drop back is much more important analysis. The problem with the OL isn't just that they are bad, but where they're bad - dead, smack in the middle at the OGs spots.

A lot of people pinpoint RT, but the most disruptive pressure comes up from the middle into the QBs face. Baas and Rachal have been horrid. They've essentially been turn-styles for the first few games of the season. Baas has gotten a little better, but Rachal has been terrible all season long save a couple plays here and there. This is the SAME reason why the 49ers can't be this "power rushing" team Singletary would like. The OGs are horrible. We can have great tackles, but if the middle is soft like a Twinkie, it's all for nothing.

Yes, we need to address RT, but Rachal's play IMHO has caused many more hurried throws, disrupted plays in the passing and running game (3rd and inches) than any other position on the OL - yet, Singletary keeps him on the field.

Opposing teams see this on film and exploit it. They run a blitz usually between one of the OG and the C, forcing Heitmann to double/help one or the other. Usually the blitz is designed to force help away from Rachal because they see him getting beat repeatedly in one-on-one match-ups. QB is disrupted, pass usually is incomplete or Alex has to roll to his right where Snyder also has problems with his man. This usually results in a sack, pick, incompletion or if we're lucky a positive play.

Maybe this is a post for "how do we fix the OL" but I simply don't trust that Scott can find us good OGs that aren't already proven and Larry Allen was a Turner suggestion. The 49ers need to figure this out because it's the heart and soul of the offense.

And, this boys and girls, is our key vocabulary of the day: Throwing Lanes.

A very astute observation by GM. Much of the difference between the first and second half, conventional and spread offense, is the bubble between the quarterback and some fat guy caving in the pocket to eat his arm. Smith works best, along with 99% of NFL QB's, in throwing when he can step up into his throws. That is a problem when we see number 62 spinning like a top, or number 68 falling backwards onto the ground.

The difference in a clean pocket and open throwing lanes in the first in second half was striking. And, it makes all the difference in the world.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I agree that 2.8 - 3.0 seconds is a good amount of time to throw the ball.

BUT

Not all pressure is equal. Pressure that disrupts throwing lanes and disrupts the timing of the throw during the drop back is much more important analysis. The problem with the OL isn't just that they are bad, but where they're bad - dead, smack in the middle at the OGs spots.

A lot of people pinpoint RT, but the most disruptive pressure comes up from the middle into the QBs face. Baas and Rachal have been horrid. They've essentially been turn-styles for the first few games of the season. Baas has gotten a little better, but Rachal has been terrible all season long save a couple plays here and there. This is the SAME reason why the 49ers can't be this "power rushing" team Singletary would like. The OGs are horrible. We can have great tackles, but if the middle is soft like a Twinkie, it's all for nothing.

Yes, we need to address RT, but Rachal's play IMHO has caused many more hurried throws, disrupted plays in the passing and running game (3rd and inches) than any other position on the OL - yet, Singletary keeps him on the field.

Opposing teams see this on film and exploit it. They run a blitz usually between one of the OG and the C, forcing Heitmann to double/help one or the other. Usually the blitz is designed to force help away from Rachal because they see him getting beat repeatedly in one-on-one match-ups. QB is disrupted, pass usually is incomplete or Alex has to roll to his right where Snyder also has problems with his man. This usually results in a sack, pick, incompletion or if we're lucky a positive play.

Maybe this is a post for "how do we fix the OL" but I simply don't trust that Scott can find us good OGs that aren't already proven and Larry Allen was a Turner suggestion. The 49ers need to figure this out because it's the heart and soul of the offense.

And, this boys and girls, is our key vocabulary of the day: Throwing Lanes.

A very astute observation by GM. Much of the difference between the first and second half, conventional and spread offense, is the bubble between the quarterback and some fat guy caving in the pocket to eat his arm. Smith works best, along with 99% of NFL QB's, in throwing when he can step up into his throws. That is a problem when we see number 62 spinning like a top, or number 68 falling backwards onto the ground.

The difference in a clean pocket and open throwing lanes in the first in second half was striking. And, it makes all the difference in the world.

Most QBs understand footwork and that every play isn't going to provide a throwing lane in which their understanding that things aren't robotic allows them to side-step into a throwing lane. I don't blame this on Smith as much as other things because hopefully it will come with reps but the fact is that he is NOT doing this at all.
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Originally posted by Joecool:


Smith still telegraphs his throw. That messed up quick pass to Gore when Gore was at WR on the left side, Smith got the ball, took a little hop to set his feet but he did that in Gore's direction and then he cocked to make the throw. By this time, the play was already sniffed out and Gore had no chance at RAC.

This was the attempted screen? Heitmann also missed a key block on this one. He and Wragge were double-teaming a guy. Wragge let go so he could get in front of Gore for blocking (like he was supposed to), and Heitmann got beat badly. If Heitmann keeps his block on that play it might be a different story.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I agree that 2.8 - 3.0 seconds is a good amount of time to throw the ball.

BUT

Not all pressure is equal. Pressure that disrupts throwing lanes and disrupts the timing of the throw during the drop back is much more important analysis. The problem with the OL isn't just that they are bad, but where they're bad - dead, smack in the middle at the OGs spots.

A lot of people pinpoint RT, but the most disruptive pressure comes up from the middle into the QBs face. Baas and Rachal have been horrid. They've essentially been turn-styles for the first few games of the season. Baas has gotten a little better, but Rachal has been terrible all season long save a couple plays here and there. This is the SAME reason why the 49ers can't be this "power rushing" team Singletary would like. The OGs are horrible. We can have great tackles, but if the middle is soft like a Twinkie, it's all for nothing.

Yes, we need to address RT, but Rachal's play IMHO has caused many more hurried throws, disrupted plays in the passing and running game (3rd and inches) than any other position on the OL - yet, Singletary keeps him on the field.

Opposing teams see this on film and exploit it. They run a blitz usually between one of the OG and the C, forcing Heitmann to double/help one or the other. Usually the blitz is designed to force help away from Heitmann because they see Rachal getting beat repeatedly in one-on-one match-ups. QB is disrupted, pass usually is incomplete or Alex has to roll to his right where Snyder also has problems with his man. This usually results in a sack, pick, incompletion or if we're lucky a positive play.

Maybe this is a post for "how do we fix the OL" but I simply don't trust that Scott can find us good OGs that aren't already proven and Larry Allen was a Turner suggestion. The 49ers need to figure this out because it's the heart and soul of the offense.

You're right, there is nothing a QB can do when there is immediate pressure up the middle. However, this hasn't been the case in this past game or in previous games. Yes, it happens once or twice in a game but not enough to make excuses for 3 INTs or 5 yards in a half.



Take a look at Rodgers, he side-stepped a often to FIND the passing lane. Let us hope Smith learns this because he tries to continuously throw through OL rather than shift over into the soft spot of the pocket which could give him even more time.

As for audibles and slants, Smith threw one quick slant to Crabtree to his back shoulder and Harris was right behind him for the "tipped ball" or to bat a bad throw down. If thrown accurately, Crabs makes the catch with 7 more yards after.

The second deep ball to Crabtree was underthrown and became a very difficult catch. If thrown accurately, it would have been a TD.


Same thing in the second half on a long pass to Bruce in the middle. Smith had 4 seconds to throw and he threw it AT Bruce rather than infront of Bruce. Bruce had to make a jump and catch it at his body. He had literally no on in front of him for 14 yards and would have gained a big one if Alex was more accurate and led him.

Also the quick pass to Gore with Gore at WR. You guys REALLY should take a look at these three passes.

You all should really look back at these four throws and you will see that Smith had time but his innacuracy made things not work as well as they should.

I will also give credit to Smith on the TD to Crabs and the fact that he is money on the Seam routes to Vernon.


Joe, but Smith threw the ball more that 4 times. You can't just look at 4 throws and make a generalization about a QB. No really. Rodgers sides steps or steps up, but that can ONLY happen if your RT and OG is winning his battle or delaying the impedance of the rusher.

It's not just immediate pressure as you say. The problem is Rachal will engage his guy, but then he's let go. That's different than just being bull-rushed. I challenge you to review the entire game - and not just this one, but them all. For most every game I can think of at least 3 plays where Rachal was beaten after 1 or 2 seconds of initial engagement by his rusher. This is compounded by Snyder being just as poor. There are times you'll see Smith or Hill roll to their right and Snyder has already lost his battle. People say "why didn't he just throw it away." The thing is, if your rolling, the RT should be able to push his guy further up-field instead of letting him get inside which Snyder always does.

3 INTs over how many games? I think the picks are of something different completely. 5 yards in the first half? You have to consider what plays are called. It's not just that easy to place all of that on Smith. Sorry. One pick against GB was clearly one of the TE's fault. They were running withing 5 yards of each other, obviously someone was supposed to clear the others' route and turn inside toward the middle of the field. That didn't happen and it was an easy pick.

You don't just have to take my word for it, Singletary and obviously the rest of the coaching staff believes there's a protection problem which is why Raye's passing plays are always initially short passes.

Since they can't really run the opposing defensive strategy has been the same; runblitz, clog the middle of the field (because this is where Gore's long runs have come), force the C to help Baas, pressure up the middle and let the ends beat the tackles. This has worked every game, even with Hill. Every game Joe.

Sure we can have a better QB will improve things somewhat. I don't deny that. However, since the 49ers can't run, and their OC can't seem to design running plays out of passing formations, we're in trouble. Even out of the Tiger formation, the QB is rushed. I have seen maybe 2 successful blitz pick-ups this entire season.