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The 49ers Are STILL a Team in Transition - DEAL WITH IT

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by DrE_DiESeL97:
Originally posted by amir_tn80:
Yeah this is a team in transition. Eternal transition. Chalk that up to another lame excuse by the naive homer fans. Five years after hitting rock bottom this team is still getting outplayed and making dumbass mistakes week after week and losing games. If some of you want to be like sheep and accept it, fine. Go right ahead. But don't expect the entire fan base to be satisfied with the results on the field. Some of us have a higher standard and are fed up with 7 straight seasons of losing football. Close losses against better teams are still losses. Good teams win close games, bad teams lose close games. After 6 years of so-called transition we still only have moral victories to celebrate.

Bill Walsh's team took a COUPLE of years before anything started to work.

Team has been rebuilding for 7 years now.

Has the OL been rebuilt? Has the pass-rush been rebuilt? Has QB been rebuilt? Has the DL been rebuilt? Has WR top to bottom been rebuilt? Until this season, had TE been rebuilt?

So when is this supposed to result in wins? 5, 6, 7, 8 years? You tell me.

I support my team 100% but I know - just like when I think a player is a bust - I think a GM is a bust, I think a front office is a bust.

Just tell me how many more years I should wait. 2 more? 3 more? 4 more? So when the team doesn't improve when those years come around, remind yourselves of this post and talk to me then about being positive.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing (GM) and expecting a different result.

Off-season Moves:

Brandon Jones
Demetric Evans
Marvel Smith
Tony Pashos

0 for 4

The only team I know that has been in transition for 9 seasons are the Oakland Raiders and Detroit Lions because in both situations, the front office is a joke.

The bottom line GM, is that the 49ers, the org, the team, the individuals, have to prove it in the wins column and they haven't. Therefore, the obvious call for someone's head and the GM has been here the longest.

Now, seven years is along time with Nolan and Scotty being hired in 2005. We started rebuilding inside out then, not when Erickson was here so that is where I will view this "rebuilding" process from. Fact is, that we have been rebuilding since 2002 when Dr. York fired Mooch!

I here you GM on Scotty that enough is enough if we continue to fail...someone has to go, right? 0-4 is not the way I view it in his FA signings though and believe that there is more to it than just that.

Jones...at the time, great pickup because of Bruce possibly leaving, then he stayed, Crabtree signed, and Hill has outperformed him (A Scotty pick). Rather have a Hill than Jones anyway, but that's just me. It happens, a high paid FA gets supplanted.

Evans...at the time, signed for depth, not to start and he got injured.

Smith...at the time, a huge risk. Slapped Scotty in the face with failure. No argument there.

Pashos...at the time, a perfect signing to replace Smith. He came in, contributed and was moving in the right direction before going to IR.

So what is the great big failure? That they are not starting or contributing? They all have at one point or another this season except for Smith. I think the expectations for what our FA signings would do were too high. Out of all of them, Jones and Smith were to start...that's where you can point the finger of failure, but to Scotty's defense on Jones, its nice that a rookie and his WR pick overtook him.

That's my take on those four.

How about the draft...
Crabtree...starting Split-End
Carolina's 1st...looks like a top 15 pick at least
Coffee...Gore's primary backup
McKillop...a stand out rook who makes plays on ST and fills in nicely for Spikes
Davis...a possible steal here as he showed signs of that top round abiity
Pascoe...one down!
Taylor...nice development player for backup status at least
RJF...seems to be another pick who may be able to jump in for Evans as a backup

Not bad. Sure, 2008, his first full off season as the complete control GM, looks bad with Balmer and Rachal. However, the jury is still out. Yea, I would love to have seen Balmer just take over at LDE and NT and Rachal pancaking everything in sight, but they need more time, but they are far from busts in my eyes.

Like I have said before that patience will be so low this season and scrutiny at its highest. I force myself to not to continue to harp on the failures of the past.

Instead, this "rebuilding" started with Dr. York, Nolan and Scotty in that order back in 2005, ok, 2005, not 2002. Then in 2008 it went Dr. York, Scotty, Nolan/Singletary, one more change after two years of stagnation and failure. Finally we ended up this year like this:

Jed York, Scotty, and Iron Mike...our first year in that order...new ownership direction, same GM, new HC. This year is their first together at their respective positions.

I, for one, will give those three some time. For me, Scotty only really has until the end of next year.

We still have eight games left and two games back in a weak division. We are still not out of it no matter how you slice it.

This team is in a total state of flux right now.

And, the past continues to haunt!
Originally posted by ninertico:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by DrE_DiESeL97:
Originally posted by amir_tn80:
Yeah this is a team in transition. Eternal transition. Chalk that up to another lame excuse by the naive homer fans. Five years after hitting rock bottom this team is still getting outplayed and making dumbass mistakes week after week and losing games. If some of you want to be like sheep and accept it, fine. Go right ahead. But don't expect the entire fan base to be satisfied with the results on the field. Some of us have a higher standard and are fed up with 7 straight seasons of losing football. Close losses against better teams are still losses. Good teams win close games, bad teams lose close games. After 6 years of so-called transition we still only have moral victories to celebrate.

Bill Walsh's team took a COUPLE of years before anything started to work.

Team has been rebuilding for 7 years now.

Has the OL been rebuilt? Has the pass-rush been rebuilt? Has QB been rebuilt? Has the DL been rebuilt? Has WR top to bottom been rebuilt? Until this season, had TE been rebuilt?

So when is this supposed to result in wins? 5, 6, 7, 8 years? You tell me.

I support my team 100% but I know - just like when I think a player is a bust - I think a GM is a bust, I think a front office is a bust.

Just tell me how many more years I should wait. 2 more? 3 more? 4 more? So when the team doesn't improve when those years come around, remind yourselves of this post and talk to me then about being positive.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing (GM) and expecting a different result.

Off-season Moves:

Brandon Jones
Demetric Evans
Marvel Smith
Tony Pashos

0 for 4

The only team I know that has been in transition for 9 seasons are the Oakland Raiders and Detroit Lions because in both situations, the front office is a joke.

The bottom line GM, is that the 49ers, the org, the team, the individuals, have to prove it in the wins column and they haven't. Therefore, the obvious call for someone's head and the GM has been here the longest.

Now, seven years is along time with Nolan and Scotty being hired in 2005. We started rebuilding inside out then, not when Erickson was here so that is where I will view this "rebuilding" process from. Fact is, that we have been rebuilding since 2002 when Dr. York fired Mooch!

I here you GM on Scotty that enough is enough if we continue to fail...someone has to go, right? 0-4 is not the way I view it in his FA signings though and believe that there is more to it than just that.

Jones...at the time, great pickup because of Bruce possibly leaving, then he stayed, Crabtree signed, and Hill has outperformed him (A Scotty pick). Rather have a Hill than Jones anyway, but that's just me. It happens, a high paid FA gets supplanted.

Evans...at the time, signed for depth, not to start and he got injured.

Smith...at the time, a huge risk. Slapped Scotty in the face with failure. No argument there.

Pashos...at the time, a perfect signing to replace Smith. He came in, contributed and was moving in the right direction before going to IR.

So what is the great big failure? That they are not starting or contributing? They all have at one point or another this season except for Smith. I think the expectations for what our FA signings would do were too high. Out of all of them, Jones and Smith were to start...that's where you can point the finger of failure, but to Scotty's defense on Jones, its nice that a rookie and his WR pick overtook him.

That's my take on those four.

How about the draft...
Crabtree...starting Split-End
Carolina's 1st...looks like a top 15 pick at least
Coffee...Gore's primary backup
McKillop...a stand out rook who makes plays on ST and fills in nicely for Spikes
Davis...a possible steal here as he showed signs of that top round abiity
Pascoe...one down!
Taylor...nice development player for backup status at least
RJF...seems to be another pick who may be able to jump in for Evans as a backup

Not bad. Sure, 2008, his first full off season as the complete control GM, looks bad with Balmer and Rachal. However, the jury is still out. Yea, I would love to have seen Balmer just take over at LDE and NT and Rachal pancaking everything in sight, but they need more time, but they are far from busts in my eyes.

Like I have said before that patience will be so low this season and scrutiny at its highest. I force myself to not to continue to harp on the failures of the past.

Instead, this "rebuilding" started with Dr. York, Nolan and Scotty in that order back in 2005, ok, 2005, not 2002. Then in 2008 it went Dr. York, Scotty, Nolan/Singletary, one more change after two years of stagnation and failure. Finally we ended up this year like this:

Jed York, Scotty, and Iron Mike...our first year in that order...new ownership direction, same GM, new HC. This year is their first together at their respective positions.

I, for one, will give those three some time. For me, Scotty only really has until the end of next year.

We still have eight games left and two games back in a weak division. We are still not out of it no matter how you slice it.

This team is in a total state of flux right now.

And, the past continues to haunt!

When has Jones contributed? When has Evans done anything impactful for the team. Again, those who defend the current regime need to give me time. 3 more years? 4 more years? I'm just tired of hearing the old refrain of "we're getting there...." Pashos was an emergency policy that came with a warning - so did Smith - so did Jones. The huge failure is those mis-steps cost the OL continuity.

Give me a season when you think Scott's picks will play/execute/perform? It took Davis 5 seasons, jury isn't just out on Rachal, it's out on Baas, Snyder, Balmer, Smith, Wallace, Lawson, Brown, Goldson - all of these are starters dude.

Yes they are good on the highlight reel but when will the talent turn into wins?

If you're going to defend Scott, then set a time when he will "come through". Yes I got 2 firsts but what good is money if you use it as kindling.

Please provide a time.
What do you mean deal with it?

I just watch, and sometimes share my opinion about the team here. Since I have never had to deal with their issues personally, I am not sure what I should be doing on that front.
Originally posted by phatbutskinny:
Originally posted by Ninerbowl6:
Thank you....everybody seems so upset....but at the beginning of the year it was clear to me we where a 7-9 to 10-6 team give or take a game......but we will be much better next year with another for the players to Gel and build some consitancy.

the annoying part is that we say this every year

'this 49er team needs one more year to rebuild and we'll be a top 10 team"

the reason people get so upset so quickly is that we SHOULD be past the rebuilding stage, but we haven't moved forward ONE BIT in the last 5 years.

I agree...but for the last four years(at least 3 with the trigger) Nolan was the defacto HC/GM and he did some good things(He did improve the talent...we sucked in 04') for this organization, but he also set us back by the poor development of Smith(He should've listened to Urban Meyer), not wanting to play young players, not establishing an identity on defense(I don't see Denver using a hybrid 3-4...hmmm).....and by having a Big Ego.

This is Sings first year and we have seen improvement. The question IMO is will it be enough to carry over into next year. That will be answered in the next 4-5 games and to be honest if we finish 8-8 or better I think that's solid start for a first year HC.....and don't get me wrong ...I never agreed with the hiring of Jimmy Raye and that could be sings down fall......but we have to give our team a chance to do things the right way and progress. Not everyone is Atlanta or Miami(last year) and can have quick turnarounds...I personally take the long view. Now if we suck next year....I'll be the first to rent the Uhaul

[ Edited by Ninerbowl6 on Nov 10, 2009 at 09:36:35 ]
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Originally posted by DrE_DiESeL97:
Originally posted by amir_tn80:
Yeah this is a team in transition. Eternal transition. Chalk that up to another lame excuse by the naive homer fans. Five years after hitting rock bottom this team is still getting outplayed and making dumbass mistakes week after week and losing games. If some of you want to be like sheep and accept it, fine. Go right ahead. But don't expect the entire fan base to be satisfied with the results on the field. Some of us have a higher standard and are fed up with 7 straight seasons of losing football. Close losses against better teams are still losses. Good teams win close games, bad teams lose close games. After 6 years of so-called transition we still only have moral victories to celebrate.

Bill Walsh's team took a COUPLE of years before anything started to work.

ha ! Today's generation would have tried to run him out of town.
This is good news. Because the way I see it we already transitioned into a pile of dog poop. So if we are still a transition team then it means we aren't a pile of dog poop and are transitioning back towards a contender.

I can deal with that.
No he wasn't
NO, Im not going to.
Originally posted by Crown:
Originally posted by DrE_DiESeL97:
Originally posted by amir_tn80:
Yeah this is a team in transition. Eternal transition. Chalk that up to another lame excuse by the naive homer fans. Five years after hitting rock bottom this team is still getting outplayed and making dumbass mistakes week after week and losing games. If some of you want to be like sheep and accept it, fine. Go right ahead. But don't expect the entire fan base to be satisfied with the results on the field. Some of us have a higher standard and are fed up with 7 straight seasons of losing football. Close losses against better teams are still losses. Good teams win close games, bad teams lose close games. After 6 years of so-called transition we still only have moral victories to celebrate.

Bill Walsh's team took a COUPLE of years before anything started to work.

ha ! Today's generation would have tried to run him out of town.

I refuse to believe - and I well remember Walsh before the team was good, that he would have taken 8 seasons to become a .500 team.

LOL! To even suggest that Walsh wouldn't have had a .500 team until 1986/87 is laughable.
Originally posted by Crown:
Originally posted by DrE_DiESeL97:
Originally posted by amir_tn80:
Yeah this is a team in transition. Eternal transition. Chalk that up to another lame excuse by the naive homer fans. Five years after hitting rock bottom this team is still getting outplayed and making dumbass mistakes week after week and losing games. If some of you want to be like sheep and accept it, fine. Go right ahead. But don't expect the entire fan base to be satisfied with the results on the field. Some of us have a higher standard and are fed up with 7 straight seasons of losing football. Close losses against better teams are still losses. Good teams win close games, bad teams lose close games. After 6 years of so-called transition we still only have moral victories to celebrate.

Bill Walsh's team took a COUPLE of years before anything started to work.

ha ! Today's generation would have tried to run him out of town.

Bill's turnaround of the 49ers is damn near an overnight success by any era's standards. Today's generation would be bowing to his greatness, just like my generation did.

Whether fair or not, Singletary is seen as part of the same coaching staff that failed for the last five seasons. He is not viewed like Walsh was when he first arrived, as a new face coming in with a totally different idea on how to play the game.
Originally posted by DrE_DiESeL97:
When was the last time a 49er team this decade was in a position to win games against a former Super Bowl champion like the Indianapolis Colts or a current favorite like the Minnesota Vikings?

All this Alex sucks stuff and fire the GM and Coach Sing is crazy threads won't earn your team a WIN at all.

The offensive line play has been poor and Alex Smith has made some bone headed decisions, but they're finally putting points up on the board and moving the ball down the field like a PROFESSIONAL football team.

The pass rush is no doubt bi-polar and injuries have shredded the secondary. The deck is stacked even higher and the San Francisco 49ers need to learn to finish games WITH THE LEAD and not shoot themselves in the foot, as what happened during this losing streak.

They're still crawling and not in the "walking phase" or "running phase" yet.

They are still a 7-9 team until they prove OTHERWISE.

great post... we are still learning about ourselfs... we will keep getting better.... go niners
Originally posted by NinerGM:

When has Jones contributed? When has Evans done anything impactful for the team. Again, those who defend the current regime need to give me time. 3 more years? 4 more years? I'm just tired of hearing the old refrain of "we're getting there...." Pashos was an emergency policy that came with a warning - so did Smith - so did Jones. The huge failure is those mis-steps cost the OL continuity.

Give me a season when you think Scott's picks will play/execute/perform? It took Davis 5 seasons, jury isn't just out on Rachal, it's out on Baas, Snyder, Balmer, Smith, Wallace, Lawson, Brown, Golds-on - all of these are starters dude.

Yes they are good on the highlight reel but when will the talent turn into wins?

If you're going to defend Scott, then set a time when he will "come through". Yes I got 2 firsts but what good is money if you use it as kindling.

Please provide a time.

The time frame is up to you and everyone else who wants immediate wins. Patience is out for ya...I get it. I have already ID'd my time frame for him. Scotty gets one more year in my book. Jed and Coach just started so I'm more apt to give those two more time.

If you were to wipe all three out and bring in Kraft as the owner, Holmgren as GM and Shanny as HC, you still have to have the question of continuity on the team and this team is no where near the talent void of 2004 so those three get the benefit of better talent and structure...they would not, I repeat, not have to start from scratch the way Nolan and Scotty did.

GM you don't have a time table anymore, you just don't. Your language makes it pretty clear of your position and that's ok. I never said you were wrong. I just said you are done.

Whether you want to be patient or not is at the crux here. I already agreed that Scotty has a short leash. I already made my arguments concerning why Scotty has actually had success with picks and FAs.

I will take your Davis point...5 seasons? He was drafted in 2006 if I recall. I have seen numerous articles by respected former coaches, analysts, etc. about how he wasn't utilized properly by the last three OCs especially Martz who just kept him back as an extra blocker. This season is where he is showing what he can do and it is evident. So his success now means nothing because of how he developed? So we can't include him as one of Scotty's successes? That just seems ludicrous.

Again, I view Scotty's FULL responsibility as GM as of 2008 therefore Baas, Snyder, Smith, Lawson, Brown, Golds-on are Nolan's primary picks...even Willis as much as Scotty influenced Nolan over Carriker. Now if you want to lump Balmer, Rachal, Reggie Smith, all the 2008 and 2009 picks and FAs together and ID successes and failure, I'm right there with ya.

However, I choose not to view the failures of the past as a mirror into our future. I choose to see the success and build off of them and learn from the failures.

The one thing is for certain, Singletary does not keep it status quo. He sees a need for a change, he has the courage to implement it. He did it last year with Hill over JTO. He did it this year with Smith over Hill, Crabtree over Morgan and Jones, J. Hill now over Bruce, and of course others. Then add the OL flux due to injury.

When have we had continuity on offense, hmmmm, when? We haven't since 2002!!!

Even when we get a new OC and he seems like a perfect fit, he has to change the entire philosphy because the talent warrants it? That sounds like flux again.

No GM, it is not Scotty's fault, but he may ultimately have to be the responsible one for the failures and be axed at the end of the season. I just don't see it though.

We are still in flux, no continuity on offense, yet. Now that D is another story altogether and don't get me started on the pass rushers because dude, you are soooo right and have been about that topic!

As for this topic, lets just say we disagree, fundamentally.

Originally posted by Xestenz:
Excellent, cathartic thread.

What is really frustrating is that we've seen some really terrible teams rise during the past seven years to contend or gain respect (New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanta, etc.)

Many of these teams found good, innovative coaches, put in place excellent personnel men, and found really really good QBs one way or the other -- and surrounded them with enough supporting cast to make it work.

In the meantime, we've been through dozens of coaches and coordinators, have missed on too many draft picks, our QB situation is still unsettled, and the mix of supporting players isn't strong enough by itself to carry us (and hasn't been built to any sort of philosophy or plan).

This isn't rocket science. Until we establish an identity based on a clear, innnovative vision, established by real football minds, then we will continue to flounder and spin our wheels.

The result of that plan will inevitably be:

A good to excellent QB.
A great left tackle and good right tackle to protect him.
Skill position players that simply makes plays when they have to.
An offense that displays some innovation.
Disruptive pass rushers.
Speed on defense.

Why does this seem so obvious to us?

Because it's easier said than done, do you honestly think any coach isn't trying to get players to fit those roles?
Here's what I think of your "Team in Transition" talk:




[ Edited by taney71 on Nov 10, 2009 at 11:01:58 ]
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