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New qb same offense...I don't get Jimmy raye

Originally posted by cestmoi:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
Bottom line is Smith now has playmakers. And he can make the best out of the play makers we have and they bring the best out in him. No more Johnny Morton, Lloyd, Fleck, DJack, etc etc and all the other losers we've fielded and expected him to put up pro bowl numbers.

Thinking of those players makes me wanna throw up.

Don't forget Gilmore, Sully's dream WR


And that guy from San Diego..cant remember his name
I remember reading (in one of Matt M;s article) the jimmy raye offense relied on power running and passes down the field.


Hill couldnt pass down the field and Alex can, maybe Rayes playbook opened up because we have a qb that can complete throws.

We ran alot of short patterns with Hill because of his inability to get the ball downfield. With 8 guys in the box, thats a lot of humanity to sort through when attempting short passes (crossing routes, routes across middle)
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
*********************************************
Those fans expecting a more wide open attack against Indianapolis, might be disappointed. When Jimmy Raye stepped to the microphone today, I asked him if his offense would change with Smith under center. "None," was Raye's response. Tim Kawakami followed with, "Are you serious? Do you mean that quarterbacks of differing talents don't change the offense at all?" Raye: "No."

**********************************************

LOL. Rachal still starting. We're going to run the same offense.

Insanity: Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Did it look like the same offense in the 2nd half against the Texans? No. Was it the same offense? Apparently, yes, at least until the last drive, according to MM's review of the game. Put the two together and you have doing the same thing but getting a different result because of the change in QB. I think what Raye is saying is that if he plays well and makes good decisions, Smith can do some things in this offense that Hill couldn't do. We saw it on Sunday and it was such a contrast that many thought they changed the offense at halftime when apparently they didn't.

Besides, all the same people who are banging on Raye in this thread would be calling him an idiot if he came out and said they were changing the offense because then the Colts would have a better chance to prepare for it.

For those of you who are upset at his comments: What would you want him to say that would not put the 49ers at a disadvantage on Sunday?

The 49ers used two tight ends on first down far more frequently once Smith took over after halftime. Smith averaged 12.1 yards per pass attempt with two touchdowns on seven plays featuring one back and two tight ends. Hill averaged 2.7 yards per attempt on three passes from this group.

The matchup against the Texans marked the second consecutive game the 49ers trailed by at least 20 points at halftime. With Hill at quarterback against the Falcons, the 49ers used one back with one tight end more than 60 percent of the time in the second half. With Smith at quarterback against Houston, the 49ers used that group only 31 percent of the time in the second half.

Smith was most effective in the second half using two tight ends. Sometimes the tight ends lined up as wide receivers. The 49ers even lined up fullback Moran Norris wide to the right on the play featuring Smith's first touchdown pass, a 29-yarder to Vernon Davis. The team used two backs, two tight ends and only one wide receiver -- Josh Morgan -- on that play and the next two they ran.

Overall, I think the 49ers were less predictable from a personnel standpoint once Smith entered the game, almost as though offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye had more confidence in Smith than he had in Hill. Whatever the confidence level was starting out -- note that the 49ers actually opened the game with three consecutive three-receiver plays for Hill -- Raye's confidence in Smith surely grew as the 49ers enjoyed success.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/7867/sizing-up-49ers-offense-with-smith-hill

You (or Sando anyway) are making an assumption that the personnel groups cited in his blog would not have been used in the same way if Hill had stayed in as part of the attempt to get back into the game. We don't know what Raye would have called but it is likely he would have had to be "more aggressive" given the 21-0 score. The fact Smith did better out of those sets speaks more to the point of the offense looking different because of Smith playing well and being able to get the ball down the field.

According to MM, before the last drive, the 49ers formations were not substantially different under Smith than they were under Hill. In fact, Hill had more plays with 3 WRs, 1 RB and 1 TE than Smith did.

http://blog.pressdemocrat.com/49ers/2009/10/player-review-with-a-little-bit-of-myth-busting.html


According to MM,

This may be true. However, Hills throws were hot reads with WR and TEs running intermediate routes. Smith, according to both guys worked primarily out of a 1 RB, 2 TE, 2 WR set which is the teams most versatile formation, versus the "base" formation. The offense did change somewhat with this formation.
  • mando1988
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Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by cestmoi:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
Bottom line is Smith now has playmakers. And he can make the best out of the play makers we have and they bring the best out in him. No more Johnny Morton, Lloyd, Fleck, DJack, etc etc and all the other losers we've fielded and expected him to put up pro bowl numbers.

Thinking of those players makes me wanna throw up.

Don't forget Gilmore, Sully's dream WR


And that guy from San Diego..cant remember his name

Curtis Conway
Originally posted by Jikkle49:
The word Raye and offensive genius won't ever be used together and I'm no means implying that he hasn't made some bad calls but I'm willing to give him some benefit of the doubt as what he was working wouldn't be consider stellar.

I mean you had a QB that can't pass, a line that can't block for him, and because of that we have no running game since that's the only thing that a defense has to stop. So exactly what plays do you call? I doubt he said "Hey Rachel on this pass play I just want you to completely beat by your man" or "Shaun I know I have 3 WR but they are just decoys so just dump it off to the RB for a 3 yard gain"

So since we have a QB that has an NFL arm and better at avoiding pressure I'm willing to give him a clean slate and see what he does with Smith in there. I mean he did call the plays that got Smith his 200 yards and 3 TDs so I don't think he's incapable of calling for the forward pass.

I don't understand why you give Raye a break for Hill and the OL. You scheme toward your strengths and away from your weaknesses. A weak-armed QB and a poor pass blocking OL calls for more of a west coast offense, (ie 3 step drops and slants--no matter what the terminology ie digit system) and I didn't see it. I've only seen the games on TV this year, so have limited info. I had been waiting all year for VD to run a slant. I can't believe Raye never called one.

Originally posted by ads_2006:
I remember reading (in one of Matt M;s article) the jimmy raye offense relied on power running and passes down the field.


Hill couldnt pass down the field and Alex can, maybe Rayes playbook opened up because we have a qb that can complete throws.

We ran alot of short patterns with Hill because of his inability to get the ball downfield. With 8 guys in the box, thats a lot of humanity to sort through when attempting short passes (crossing routes, routes across middle)
I don't understand where the assumption came from that Raye's play calling changed with Smith in the lineup. Greater success yes. I'm no expert, but I could not see a difference in the play calling and the formation info does not show any great change either.
Its called not exposing your gameplan genius
But honestly, things will change because Alex can deliver throws that Shaun could not. He offers more mobility, a stronger arm, and potentially better accuracy. Besides, atleast Alex doesn't look like he's throwing a shot put out there!
Originally posted by NinerGM:
*********************************************
Those fans expecting a more wide open attack against Indianapolis, might be disappointed. When Jimmy Raye stepped to the microphone today, I asked him if his offense would change with Smith under center. "None," was Raye's response. Tim Kawakami followed with, "Are you serious? Do you mean that quarterbacks of differing talents don't change the offense at all?" Raye: "No."

**********************************************

LOL. Rachal still starting. We're going to run the same offense.

Insanity: Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Not sure that your criticism is valid here.

Seems, to me, that Raye was just answering the question.

He's still gonna run the same offense, the one that he brought with him. You know, the one with the numbered routes for WRs. . . the "Norv Turner" offense, descended from Air Coryell, or whatever. In other words, we're not changing to a WCO this week, or a Run & Shoot, or a Wishbone, or whatever.

Doesn't mean its gonna run exactly the same way, or look the same, with Smith in for Hill, but its still the same offense. That should seem pretty obvious, even to someone like Kawakami. Isn't it?

As far as Rachal starting, seems like he's the most talented guy they've got at that position for now. Presumably, they're addressing his problem with the stunt where he keeps getting beat. Looks like they don't have any other option, this week at least. Doesn't necessarily make anyone "insane," does it?
It will change because Smith will throw the ball deep so Raye will get more comfortable calling an aggressive gameplan!
Originally posted by znk916:

I just s**t all over my balls TWICE!
I can' wait to see Smith throw a 50-60yrd pass to Morgan or Crabtree...


Also, of course Raye is going to say the offense won't change. He's not going to come out and say "yes, we are going to run the spread offense, move smith around to get away from the colts great pass rush". That would be just stupid.
oh come on, use your head. what do you expect raye to say? "oh yea, with smith in the game expect to see more play action, boot legs, more 3 wr sets" COME ON.. that question he was asked was LOADED. if he answered it the colts would know the game plan. raye said in the beginning of the season, he will taylor this team around its talent. so, yes, the game plan will change. but no, he will not broadcast it before a huge game against indi. a game that the colts really dont know what to expect from smith. so, i agree with raye. say "same ol same ol."
Originally posted by stevenking57:
All I know is that in the second half of last week's game we threw the ball down the field a lot more. I have a VERY hard time believing that Raye called the same plays with Smith in the game the second half. I wonder if Sing and Raye live in the same world that the rest of us. They spend the first third of the season pounding Gore and Coffee between the tackles earning us what? We rank almost last in rushing in the NFL. Smith gets his chance and puts the ball down the field for an almost come from behind victory and now Raye says nothing is changing? If we run the same offense that we ran with Hill, then Raye needs to coach at a retirement home and Sing needs to be the guy who empties the bed pans

All reports indicate that it was the same offense. Looks a little different when the quarterback gets the ball out of his hands doesn't it?

Hills "game manager" moniker was bulls**t from day one. How about a QB that can move the chains and make plays? Is that too old fashioned?
This whole time we've been criticizing Raye and we should have been criticizing Hill.