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Finally, Reason to not always blame Raye

Originally posted by bambam52:
Originally posted by alpha81:
Its funny how they blame Sing and Raye but how bout Hill. Put this offense with Brady under center and this offense would be a lot different. Do the same with the Pats with Hill and the offense would have to be conservative due to Hill's limitations. The problem here is that Hill has reached his potential and it sucks. I'm not a big Alex Smith fan but I think this guy has much more potential to show. Smith hasnt even had a coordinator for two years for god sakes. That is really tough on a guy that is young and is trying to improve. Anyway, Raye can only do so much with Hill due to his limitations....think about it




Think about this , if tom brady was under our o-line he would get sacked and suffer as much as hill , if hill was with new england , he would be a upgraded chad pennington , THE FACT is its about the OLINE , they cant block i dont care if joe cool was back there nothing will happen , if we had the NYG oline gore and coffee would have a 5.1 or better avg and hill would have more completions and tds , its common football sense!!!!!


And also alex smith would actually develop into what we all thought he could be a good qb if he HAD A LINE , a.smith would blossom in raye's system btw but he cant beat out hill so end of story
Originally posted by bambam52:
Originally posted by bambam52:
Originally posted by alpha81:
Its funny how they blame Sing and Raye but how bout Hill. Put this offense with Brady under center and this offense would be a lot different. Do the same with the Pats with Hill and the offense would have to be conservative due to Hill's limitations. The problem here is that Hill has reached his potential and it sucks. I'm not a big Alex Smith fan but I think this guy has much more potential to show. Smith hasnt even had a coordinator for two years for god sakes. That is really tough on a guy that is young and is trying to improve. Anyway, Raye can only do so much with Hill due to his limitations....think about it




Think about this , if tom brady was under our o-line he would get sacked and suffer as much as hill , if hill was with new england , he would be a upgraded chad pennington , THE FACT is its about the OLINE , they cant block i dont care if joe cool was back there nothing will happen , if we had the NYG oline gore and coffee would have a 5.1 or better avg and hill would have more completions and tds , its common football sense!!!!!


And also alex smith would actually develop into what we all thought he could be a good qb if he HAD A LINE , a.smith would blossom in raye's system btw but he cant beat out hill so end of story

And that's what all of this comes to- if our O-Line were executing, no one would be complaining. Our offense wouldn't be a high-wire act, but we would grind teams down and win games. But with the line playing like it has been and Gore out and therefore unable to cover up some of their errors, the offense has been horrible. So don't blame Sing, Raye, or Hill- the scheme is not the problem- blame the O-Line coach and the 5 up front. Get them in order and we're back in business.
[ Edited by gravelburn on Oct 17, 2009 at 3:50 AM ]
As i said when i posted, it's not all on Raye, and i'm not even gonna make another thread because it's not all on the O-line. Some of you guys pick and choose what you want to answer too, instead of answering with some reality. REality of the line is this, it isnt that great, but HIll at times did have options to go down the field. And that game agains Atlanta, how many plays had he underthrown Davis, at least 5. When he went downfield despite that pass to Morgan most were over or behind receivers.

When he had time and space what usually happened. He went safely with the checkdown man. Did we forget that when Morgan stopped running it was a quick out that gained all those yards.

With Ryan and even our defense. You know why he killed us, because we didnt stick to our plan, nope. Cuz we did have a plan. A plan that we could keep doin the same s**t to teams, and no one take advantage of our mistakes and weaknesses. Well Atlanta did it. Most his passes came from our over agreesive run defense, with the play action pass. Espn put the stats up the next day, and said technically they only killed us with play action. with the regular plays he had no td's, and one int.

I just say. We were exposed around the league for our weakness, and so far we are 0-2 vs, good and proven teams. Even Favre's last minute pass. We got beat it's as simple as that. I hope that more teams arent afraid to hit us in the mouth again. Only then will we really see what our team is made of. But stop with all this blaming one and not the other, cause it aint always bout the line. And a good qb, makes plays when they present themselves, and with hill regardless whether some agree or not, plays have presented themselves, we just didnt capitalize. Dont forget the two Gore runs. Were those plays because the O-line was great, no. They did ok, and Gore made it happen shedding tacklers. So if Gore can do it, with a depleted line, so can Hill. I mean s**t, he is a qb, so stop babying him like they guy that wrote that recent article about HIll being the only one prepared. Even the writers are making excuses and pointing fingers at everyone, but where it also should be pointed, and thats the QB included.
Originally posted by Jersey9er:
As i said when i posted, it's not all on Raye, and i'm not even gonna make another thread because it's not all on the O-line. Some of you guys pick and choose what you want to answer too, instead of answering with some reality. REality of the line is this, it isnt that great, but HIll at times did have options to go down the field. And that game agains Atlanta, how many plays had he underthrown Davis, at least 5. When he went downfield despite that pass to Morgan most were over or behind receivers.

When he had time and space what usually happened. He went safely with the checkdown man. Did we forget that when Morgan stopped running it was a quick out that gained all those yards.

With Ryan and even our defense. You know why he killed us, because we didnt stick to our plan, nope. Cuz we did have a plan. A plan that we could keep doin the same s**t to teams, and no one take advantage of our mistakes and weaknesses. Well Atlanta did it. Most his passes came from our over agreesive run defense, with the play action pass. Espn put the stats up the next day, and said technically they only killed us with play action. with the regular plays he had no td's, and one int.

I just say. We were exposed around the league for our weakness, and so far we are 0-2 vs, good and proven teams. Even Favre's last minute pass. We got beat it's as simple as that. I hope that more teams arent afraid to hit us in the mouth again. Only then will we really see what our team is made of. But stop with all this blaming one and not the other, cause it aint always bout the line. And a good qb, makes plays when they present themselves, and with hill regardless whether some agree or not, plays have presented themselves, we just didnt capitalize. Dont forget the two Gore runs. Were those plays because the O-line was great, no. They did ok, and Gore made it happen shedding tacklers. So if Gore can do it, with a depleted line, so can Hill. I mean s**t, he is a qb, so stop babying him like they guy that wrote that recent article about HIll being the only one prepared. Even the writers are making excuses and pointing fingers at everyone, but where it also should be pointed, and thats the QB included.

Agree, if I get what your saying, it is the offense as a whole?! Hill did have some ugly throws, therefore he would have to recieve a majority of the blame. If I really had to break it down, I would probably say...

-Hill 30%
-Oline 20%
-predictable playcalling 20% (this could be included with not adjusting to Atlanta's gameplan
-10% coffee missing blocks
-10% WRs not getting separation.

i rewatched the game last night again, and rarely did Hill actually have over 3 seconds. Most passes he had to get rid of within 2-2.5 to avoid the sack. On these particular plays, I noticed the recievers were either not open yet or the route had not yet developed, and this is why I blame 20% on the lack of adjusting to the Atlanta defensive gameplan....
Originally posted by SJniner7:
Originally posted by Jersey9er:
As i said when i posted, it's not all on Raye, and i'm not even gonna make another thread because it's not all on the O-line. Some of you guys pick and choose what you want to answer too, instead of answering with some reality. REality of the line is this, it isnt that great, but HIll at times did have options to go down the field. And that game agains Atlanta, how many plays had he underthrown Davis, at least 5. When he went downfield despite that pass to Morgan most were over or behind receivers.

When he had time and space what usually happened. He went safely with the checkdown man. Did we forget that when Morgan stopped running it was a quick out that gained all those yards.

With Ryan and even our defense. You know why he killed us, because we didnt stick to our plan, nope. Cuz we did have a plan. A plan that we could keep doin the same s**t to teams, and no one take advantage of our mistakes and weaknesses. Well Atlanta did it. Most his passes came from our over agreesive run defense, with the play action pass. Espn put the stats up the next day, and said technically they only killed us with play action. with the regular plays he had no td's, and one int.

I just say. We were exposed around the league for our weakness, and so far we are 0-2 vs, good and proven teams. Even Favre's last minute pass. We got beat it's as simple as that. I hope that more teams arent afraid to hit us in the mouth again. Only then will we really see what our team is made of. But stop with all this blaming one and not the other, cause it aint always bout the line. And a good qb, makes plays when they present themselves, and with hill regardless whether some agree or not, plays have presented themselves, we just didnt capitalize. Dont forget the two Gore runs. Were those plays because the O-line was great, no. They did ok, and Gore made it happen shedding tacklers. So if Gore can do it, with a depleted line, so can Hill. I mean s**t, he is a qb, so stop babying him like they guy that wrote that recent article about HIll being the only one prepared. Even the writers are making excuses and pointing fingers at everyone, but where it also should be pointed, and thats the QB included.

Agree, if I get what your saying, it is the offense as a whole?! Hill did have some ugly throws, therefore he would have to recieve a majority of the blame. If I really had to break it down, I would probably say...

-Hill 30%
-Oline 20%
-predictable playcalling 20% (this could be included with not adjusting to Atlanta's gameplan
-10% coffee missing blocks
-10% WRs not getting separation.

i rewatched the game last night again, and rarely did Hill actually have over 3 seconds. Most passes he had to get rid of within 2-2.5 to avoid the sack. On these particular plays, I noticed the recievers were either not open yet or the route had not yet developed, and this is why I blame 20% on the lack of adjusting to the Atlanta defensive gameplan....

Now SJ, usually we dont agree, but yup thats what im saying. Although not that much of a HIll fan, i'm not gonna say he's stunk it up every game. And he has produced. No where near what some of us thought, but he has. ONly thing i disagree with is i looked at the game too a few times, and at times, he held onto the ball too long. Was undecisive in his decision making of where to go with the ball, and there was a play where i actually liked when i saw HIll read the coverage, and audible, but dont you know it, that when he did that, he got sacked. So that told me something too.

But once again, yes. I say in no way is it all HIlls, fault, and not the LIne either. They all deserve the blame, i just say include Hill in there as well. IT could be 2%, know what i mean, but to completely say he had nothing to do with the loss, and was all the line, just aint right.
  • GEEK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 17,446
This is where having Mike Martz would have come in handy.

Martz would have told Singletary to get his head out of his ass on the offense.
Ultimately, Head Coach Mike Singletary is responsible, period, enough said.

As far as the dismal offense, like many said it is a combination of things. However, I believe it all starts with the OL. They have to make plays by creating gaps, drive lanes, block and penetrate while protecting Hill when he passes. They have been horrible at execution and focus especially the Gs and ROT.

When Hill gets time by his OL, he usually makes a play. We have seen some nice yardage down field even that 50 yarder to Bruce and the VD TDs. When the OL blocks and executes their assignments, Gore or Coffee can gain some yards.

Still, Some of Raye's play calling has been UBER conservative at times when it comes down to it. He's opened it up a bit, but looks like certain pass plays weren't practiced enough as evidenced against Atlanta. Still, there are times when he is successful.

Once players AND coaches get in place, then Singletary can take credit for the wins. Why?

He is ultimately responsible.

Good morning, Zone!

Originally posted by Jersey9er:
As i said when i posted, it's not all on Raye, and i'm not even gonna make another thread because it's not all on the O-line. Some of you guys pick and choose what you want to answer too, instead of answering with some reality. REality of the line is this, it isnt that great, but HIll at times did have options to go down the field. And that game agains Atlanta, how many plays had he underthrown Davis, at least 5. When he went downfield despite that pass to Morgan most were over or behind receivers.

When he had time and space what usually happened. He went safely with the checkdown man. Did we forget that when Morgan stopped running it was a quick out that gained all those yards.

With Ryan and even our defense. You know why he killed us, because we didnt stick to our plan, nope. Cuz we did have a plan. A plan that we could keep doin the same s**t to teams, and no one take advantage of our mistakes and weaknesses. Well Atlanta did it. Most his passes came from our over agreesive run defense, with the play action pass. Espn put the stats up the next day, and said technically they only killed us with play action. with the regular plays he had no td's, and one int.

I just say. We were exposed around the league for our weakness, and so far we are 0-2 vs, good and proven teams. Even Favre's last minute pass. We got beat it's as simple as that. I hope that more teams arent afraid to hit us in the mouth again. Only then will we really see what our team is made of. But stop with all this blaming one and not the other, cause it aint always bout the line. And a good qb, makes plays when they present themselves, and with hill regardless whether some agree or not, plays have presented themselves, we just didnt capitalize. Dont forget the two Gore runs. Were those plays because the O-line was great, no. They did ok, and Gore made it happen shedding tacklers. So if Gore can do it, with a depleted line, so can Hill. I mean s**t, he is a qb, so stop babying him like they guy that wrote that recent article about HIll being the only one prepared. Even the writers are making excuses and pointing fingers at everyone, but where it also should be pointed, and thats the QB included.

Hill is playing like I expected him to play. If he has time, he usually makes the safe if unspectacular play. No sense comparing him to Gore because the two are in two separate stratospheres as far as talent goes. No one ever should have expected Hill to carry the team and make all-pro throws. The offense is designed for the run to carry us and the pass to simply keep drives alive. Asking Hill to carry us and being disappointed when he can't is ridiculous. He is what he is. An upgrade would be nice, but right now he's the best we've got.

The defense has been playing aggressively and definitely got burned for it against Atlanta. But they seem perfectly capable of making the necessary adjustments and continuing to mature as a unit. Getting beat because you are being overly aggressive is something that can be adjusted to. It's not like we're being beat because opposing offenses are simply faster, more talented or more cohesive. So while the defense definitely got schooled, that's to be expected from a young defense from time to time. I fully expect a loss like that to make them better. Sure a top-notched pass-rusher would be nice, but I think we can be effective (maybe not top notch) with what we've currently got.

If we want to blame Raye and the play calling, I'd say while I agree there have been some questionable calls, I can't expect coaches to miraculously make things happen if the players aren't executing. And that's why I have to focus on the O-line.

If an O-line doesn't execute, that offense isn't going to have consistent success, regardless of the talent level at the skill-positions. Our O-line is getting consistently out-played in all phases of the game. As a self-proclaimed run-focused, grind 'em down offense, we need to be averaging at least 4 yards a carry. We haven't seen evidence thus far that we can consistently do that, forcing us to rely on Shaun Hill to carry us, which we knew from the start he is not capable of doing.

The bottom line is that our defense has given indication that it can continue to improve and mature, Hill is adequate if uninspiring if given time, but the O-line is consistently coming up short. Will fixing the O-line issues solve all our problems? Absolutely not. We're a borderline playoff team even if the O-line executes consistently. But it's the one glaring area that needs immediate focus or this season goes very quickly down the tubes. Yes, an upgrade at QB would also be nice, some inspired play-calling would be more than welcome and a top pass rusher might push our defense over the hump, but right now getting the O-line to execute has to be our absolute top priority, because nothing else matters if they don't start playing better.
problem with the offense is the OL! Also with Gore out Coffee has sucked bad.
Originally posted by GEEK:
This is where having Mike Martz would have come in handy.

Martz would have told Singletary to get his head out of his ass on the offense.

Oh, like last year, huh?

Bottom line. Sing knew from the beginning that he needed a mobile QB with this OL. Nothing has changed over the past two years. They were garbage then and have not demonstrated any improvement. This is why he wanted the most mobile qb in the history of the game....some one who could keep the defense honest with his mobility and at least buy time to make play. Vick.

So for all of those who cried about his interest in bringing Vick in, those 16 sacks in five games are for YOU! Don't b***h about bad line play, bad QB play, bad schemes. You got exactly what you asked for when you certain "FANS" sabotaged his plan.
[ Edited by ttime1 on Oct 17, 2009 at 10:59 PM ]
  • B650
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 4,205
Can Steve Young still play?
Crabtree, then, is the perfect receiver for this offense. He is not really a downfield burner. He is a catch and go, YAC receiver. John Taylor was not a burner. He was so strong in his legs that he could catch a 6 yard slant and turn it 90 yards (twice in the Rams game).

Davis is a burner for a TE but he would best be used catching a 5 yard pass and taking it to the house.
As great as a motivational coach and leader Singletary is....I really think he failed at picking his offensive coordinator.

It seems as if Singletary's pick in Raye was more so that Raye was in Singletary's "comfort zone". Raye seems like a mellow and laid back kind of guy who will do what Singletary wants.

They say that CEOs or leaders in any organization should have people around them that challenges them and questions them in order to be great in the organization. "yes man" type organizations usually lead to escalation bias and a distortion from reality.

I actually think Martz would have been a better fit. Since they have different philosophies, they can neutralize each other and challenge each other in terms laying out a game plan each week.
When will people realize the constant problem with our offense...

OC'S

Mccarthy-Great offensive mind.

Turner-Great offensive mind.

Hostler-not even relevant in football discussions.

Raye- Pretty much the same as Hostler.

Martz-GREAT offensive mind.?


QUARTERBACKS
RATTAY, CODY PICKETT, THE BACHELOR, ALEX SMITH, JT OSULLIVAN, CHRIS HEINKE, SHAUN HILL, TRENT DILFER, KEN DORSEY.

Raye is dogsh*t, but it wouldnt matter if we had cam cameron, fkn mccarthy or bill belichek....you cant have a good offense with these kinds of quarterbacks, just wont happen.