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Heard on KNBR on why we looked lost on the deep ball

If Sunday's game wasn't a big wakeup call for Singletary, then we're in real trouble. He needs to learn from it, and apply common sense and logic to improve the offense. Making some changes on the OL is a good start. So is getting Gore back and Crabtree on the field. He needs to tell Raye to open up his playbook, too. While he's from the old school, he appears willing to learn from mistakes to get better. He's not stuck on himself...his ego's not so big he's not above admitting mistakes and then getting better.

With Crabtree joining the receiving corps, it's important to open up the passing game. He'll be worked into the offense gradually, but the goal should be to get the ball in his, Vernon's, Morgan's and Jones' hands...they're the playmakers and have to be a more integral part of the offense, period. We know what Gore can do...Raye will have to get the passing game a much more relevant part of his offense.
Originally posted by obx49:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Blitz:
He's right with his analysis, IMHO. You say some can make the throws: Well, Hill can't make all the throws. He simply does not have the abiltity to make all the throws. Now you throw in an o-line playing like s**t, and you have just cut your already handicapped QB (because he can't make all the throws even under the best of circumstances) down to nothing. Hill takes a large support cast, there is no doubt about that. So, the root of the problem is the o-line, both run blocking and pass protection, followed by having a QB who can't make all the throws that a top notch QB usually can, even when not pressured.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it appears we, as fans, tend to only look at the most recent events with players. What we don't do is look at the bigger picture or even history. In the case of Hill, Hill DID make all the throws necessary in a Martz system that was designed to go down field early and often. Last year, Hill made ALL of the throws in tight windows and with confidence. He was allowed to get into a rhythm and his confidence to throw grew with each game, as did his confidence in his WR's and offense as a whole.

This year, I see zero adjustments by Raye, a you-can't-throw and don't-lose-the-ball attitude now forced on Hill, WR's and the QB are not even mentioned in the keys to winning according to Singletary and Raye and yet, with the minimal chances Hill and this ENTIRE offense has had to grow and develop, self-inflicted, it's amazing to me we've been able to do anything at all. Our 3rd down %'s are a direct result of poor, conservative play-calling and an inability of an OC and coach to adjust to defenses and play to a team's strength and supported by a HC's philosophy to play scared and close to the vest.

But I digress and repeat myself again; Hill CAN make the throws as evidenced last year in a system that fit him and this offense much better, even if it was pulled back by Singletary who, as evidenced even more, fired Martz b/c he couldn't (or wouldn't) be even more vanilla on offense. It was a "philosophical difference."

We are seeing the results right now of this philosophy and out-dated offensive game-plan but the QB is NOT to blame here, nor is the offensive line or the WR's or the TE's or the RB's nor are the fans. Players are NOT put in position to be successful.

It ALL starts with philosophy (at the top) and filters down to the field.

Case closed, argument over. Great Post!

Can someone who is not a Hill-Hater or Alex-Lover, someone with some honest objectivity go back to each of Hill's passing plays and count how many times he had less then 3 seconds to pass.

If you want, you can also add in the number of sacks, QB hurries, QB scrambles, QB hits, tipped balls, pressure that lead to big plays such as 3rd down stops, turnovers, how many 3rd and longs, etc. Real game-stats.

Just do it for one game (Atlanta would be great). Then, do the same for the opposition's QB in that same game.

You're going to see a world of difference.

PS: I challenge anyone to do this. It shouldn't take long at all if you DVR'd the game.
Originally posted by GhostofJimmyDean:
I've suspected this. Even in practice Raye calls more running plays. It's pathetic. You can't impose your will on defenses with the run if your O-line isn't good enough. You would think at this point Sing and Raye would realize this and implement a more balanced offense, but noooooo. They're too hard up for the run.

It's no wonder Hill and the receivers are so out of sync. Funny how they had no problem running a Mike Martz offense.

Gee, I wonder if Raye's history of mediocrity (and that's generous) has anything to do with it.

Damn its nice to finally see more fans put the kool-aid down.

The same players did much better under Martz.

It the problem only with the OL, as throw-em-under-the-bus Sing says, as an excuse for his terrible offensive philosophy?

Or is it because it is easier for the defenses to defend the Sing offense and that no OL could succeed under those circumstances?
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by obx49:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Blitz:
He's right with his analysis, IMHO. You say some can make the throws: Well, Hill can't make all the throws. He simply does not have the abiltity to make all the throws. Now you throw in an o-line playing like s**t, and you have just cut your already handicapped QB (because he can't make all the throws even under the best of circumstances) down to nothing. Hill takes a large support cast, there is no doubt about that. So, the root of the problem is the o-line, both run blocking and pass protection, followed by having a QB who can't make all the throws that a top notch QB usually can, even when not pressured.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it appears we, as fans, tend to only look at the most recent events with players. What we don't do is look at the bigger picture or even history. In the case of Hill, Hill DID make all the throws necessary in a Martz system that was designed to go down field early and often. Last year, Hill made ALL of the throws in tight windows and with confidence. He was allowed to get into a rhythm and his confidence to throw grew with each game, as did his confidence in his WR's and offense as a whole.

This year, I see zero adjustments by Raye, a you-can't-throw and don't-lose-the-ball attitude now forced on Hill, WR's and the QB are not even mentioned in the keys to winning according to Singletary and Raye and yet, with the minimal chances Hill and this ENTIRE offense has had to grow and develop, self-inflicted, it's amazing to me we've been able to do anything at all. Our 3rd down %'s are a direct result of poor, conservative play-calling and an inability of an OC and coach to adjust to defenses and play to a team's strength and supported by a HC's philosophy to play scared and close to the vest.

But I digress and repeat myself again; Hill CAN make the throws as evidenced last year in a system that fit him and this offense much better, even if it was pulled back by Singletary who, as evidenced even more, fired Martz b/c he couldn't (or wouldn't) be even more vanilla on offense. It was a "philosophical difference."

We are seeing the results right now of this philosophy and out-dated offensive game-plan but the QB is NOT to blame here, nor is the offensive line or the WR's or the TE's or the RB's nor are the fans. Players are NOT put in position to be successful.

It ALL starts with philosophy (at the top) and filters down to the field.

Case closed, argument over. Great Post!


I call BS man. The philosophy is a sound philosophy. It's been used successfully year in and year out for decades.

I also call BS on the offensive line not taking any blame. I really don't even have to explain that one, anybody who has watched can see it. But I will...They suck. they suck bad. We haven't had a decent line since Allen back with Norv. Even then it was mediocre. Since then, the personnel on the line has changed, and the line has worsened. So before you get into this "same personnel different coaches" schpiel...consider that they sucked with Hostler, they sucked with Martz and now they suck with Raye. Why the f**k is that? Because this line is not the same line that Norv had...it is a completely different line...and apart from Staley and Heitman, they are sucking it up big time. So don't waste your time with me about "how they did better" last year under Martz because the truth is they sucked last year too.

Holy f**king Christ, I get tired of people playing revisionist history with the facts about this line and how they have performed over the last years, all in effort to try and prove their b***h about something else entirely. (Raye, Sing etc.)

Now, as far as your top down theory, I call BS on that as well. It's about personal accountability, whether the f**k it's top down or bottom up. Take your pick how you want to skin that cat, top down or bottom up...it doesn't make two s**ts because either way it's still going to boil down to personal accountability with each individual, no matter which path is chosen. Your either a pro or your not. f**ked up philosophy or good philosophy....you man the f**k up and be a pro and execute. WTF...it's the f**kin' NFL, not some damn pop warner league.
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by carlgo:
Originally posted by GhostofJimmyDean:
I've suspected this. Even in practice Raye calls more running plays. It's pathetic. You can't impose your will on defenses with the run if your O-line isn't good enough. You would think at this point Sing and Raye would realize this and implement a more balanced offense, but noooooo. They're too hard up for the run.

It's no wonder Hill and the receivers are so out of sync. Funny how they had no problem running a Mike Martz offense.

Gee, I wonder if Raye's history of mediocrity (and that's generous) has anything to do with it.

Damn its nice to finally see more fans put the kool-aid down.

The same players did much better under Martz.

It the problem only with the OL, as throw-em-under-the-bus Sing says, as an excuse for his terrible offensive philosophy?

Or is it because it is easier for the defenses to defend the Sing offense and that no OL could succeed under those circumstances?

They didn't do much better under Martz. That's hogwash. They sucked as a matter of fact. They couldn't open a hole for s**t and they couldn't pass protect for s**t, even with max protect going. Have you people forgotten how many sacks they gave up last year? Have you people forgotten how many short yardage situations they totally f**ked up last year? Have you people forgotten how they fizzled out once the got to about the opponents 40? And you say they "had no problem running A Martz offense"? Hogwash man...they could move the ball down the filed no problem but they couldn't score worth a s**t, they couldn't do jack s**t once they crossed the 50 and they beat the living hell out od the QB. You call that success? WTF good does it do if you can't score points? And not only that, it wasn't until Sing started to shove his philosophy down Mart'z throat that they actually started to win consistently..which just goes to show who was able to get the most of the offense and who wasn't. Start telling the truth people, the offense essentially sucked under Martz, they couldn't score to save their life, they couldn't run worth a s**t, and they damn sure couldn't protect the QB worth a s**t.

Just where in the f**k is this "they did better under Martz" stuff coming from? I have yet to figure that out, except that it must convenient to say so.


Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by carlgo:
Originally posted by GhostofJimmyDean:
I've suspected this. Even in practice Raye calls more running plays. It's pathetic. You can't impose your will on defenses with the run if your O-line isn't good enough. You would think at this point Sing and Raye would realize this and implement a more balanced offense, but noooooo. They're too hard up for the run.

It's no wonder Hill and the receivers are so out of sync. Funny how they had no problem running a Mike Martz offense.

Gee, I wonder if Raye's history of mediocrity (and that's generous) has anything to do with it.

Damn its nice to finally see more fans put the kool-aid down.

The same players did much better under Martz.

It the problem only with the OL, as throw-em-under-the-bus Sing says, as an excuse for his terrible offensive philosophy?

Or is it because it is easier for the defenses to defend the Sing offense and that no OL could succeed under those circumstances?

They didn't do much better under Martz. That's hogwash. They sucked as a matter of fact. They couldn't open a hole for s**t and they couldn't pass protect for s**t, even with max protect going. Have you people forgotten how many sacks they gave up last year? Have you people forgotten how many short yardage situations they totally f**ked up last year? Have you people forgotten how they fizzled out once the got to about the opponents 40? And you say they "had no problem running A Martz offense"? Hogwash man...they could move the ball down the filed no problem but they couldn't score worth a s**t, they couldn't do jack s**t once they crossed the 50 and they beat the living hell out od the QB. You call that success? WTF good does it do if you can't score points? And not only that, it wasn't until Sing started to shove his philosophy down Mart'z throat that they actually started to win consistently..which just goes to show who was able to get the most of the offense and who wasn't. Start telling the truth people, the offense essentially sucked under Martz, they couldn't score to save their life, they couldn't run worth a s**t, and they damn sure couldn't protect the QB worth a s**t.

Just where in the f**k is this "they did better under Martz" stuff coming from? I have yet to figure that out, except that it must convenient to say so.



Because the 'applause' emotion does not do justice:


-9fA

[ Edited by 9erfanAUS on Oct 14, 2009 at 15:36:33 ]