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Aaahh, I see what Sing is doing....

Originally posted by ObePwnD:
....It's pretty obvious to me, and I'm sure to many of you here that Sing is trying to improve our pass rush through coverage sacks. It's just my opinion based on the extra depth in the secondary. After he signed Green, I was racking my brain, trying to figure out why? If there are no pass rushers available in the FA, why not try a different approach? Not saying that Sing is not trying to improve the so called pass rushers we have, but this may work for the time being until we're able to capitalize on next year's very strong draft.

I think he's putting his finger in the dike until next draft.

What do you guys think? Can it work? Will it help?

Well, usually pass rushers need to develop. Even if we are able to draft a player with lots of talent, he will probably need time to become productive. I was hoping this would be that year of development. I'm a strong believer that the pass rush is a big part in winning games.
  • DVDA
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
....It's pretty obvious to me, and I'm sure to many of you here that Sing is trying to improve our pass rush through coverage sacks. It's just my opinion based on the extra depth in the secondary. After he signed Green, I was racking my brain, trying to figure out why? If there are no pass rushers available in the FA, why not try a different approach? Not saying that Sing is not trying to improve the so called pass rushers we have, but this may work for the time being until we're able to capitalize on next year's very strong draft.

I think he's putting his finger in the dike until next draft.

What do you guys think? Can it work? Will it help?


You read my mind. This is a heated topic for me b/c this school of thought comes from Mike Nolan where he preached that one of the advantages of the 3-4 is that it's cheaper. Then, he goes out and spends a gazillion dollars on our secondary with Michael Lewis, Nate Clements & Mark Roman...Harris was pretty cheap; but he then completely ignores the front 7 save for Smith. The problem is, and remember, Nolan used to be a d-back coach, is that this is the complete BACKWARDS way of building a 3-4 and does NOT work (like I need to tell you that). To build a true 3-4, you start with a dominant NT, the work from the inside out and focus on the the pass rushing OLB's and the two DE's that free them up. Once you have a dominant and attacking 3-4, you can focus on the secondary more by adding a key FA or develop some youngsters. But the bottom line is, you can't manufacture coverage sacks and be successful. Haralson and the d-line did benefit from more coverage sacks then what they generated for themselves though but none truly affected a game one way or another. Everybody (save for our management) knows a dominant front 7 allows an average secondary to play aggressively and grow and develop. It doesn't work the other way around!

Harris is getting paid more than Mark Roman...
Originally posted by 49er4life:
I think a lot of people forget that during the preseason it is very common not to show your blitz packages!

If you show them during the preseason you give your regular season opponents the upper hand early. This is one of the reason Nolan is an idiot, throwing all of his blitz packages at us in the first game is only going to hurt them in the regular season.

While I agree that pre-season is a time to work on certain aspects of coverages, packages, etc. let's be clear that Singletary was NOT happy with our non-existent pass rush. No matter how vanilla the scheme is, our men should still be beating their men with one-on-one battles. Period.

We are NOT a dominant 3-4 or 4-6 defense that has played together for years and will be adding some new wrinkles and we don't want to show-our-hand, so to speak. I just don't buy this theory at all. We are a 7-9 team that desperately needs to improve a pass rush that has not existed for over 6 years now and we need to be working on it every chance we get.

And case-in-point, it doesn't MATTER if the rest of the league does see your hand if you are a good defense b/c there won't be anything they can do about it. It's no different then when a defense KNOWS you're a dominant power running team and still, there is nothing they can do to stop it. Our first pre-season game, we clearly tried to establish a dominant running game with Coffee...should we not have done that for fear of showing our hand in the regular season? I don't think so!
Originally posted by 23zack80:
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
Originally posted by 23zack80:
Seems like a long time to put his finger in a dike...

It's early to say, but if our pass rush doesn't materialize, what are we suppose to do, get picked apart or try to fix a foreseeable problem?

I'm just saying it's hard enough for a guy to get a finger in a dike, and you want him to keep it in there for a whole year.

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I will take sacks any way we can get them. BUT without a legit pass rush, our secondary will get picked apart every game.
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
....It's pretty obvious to me, and I'm sure to many of you here that Sing is trying to improve our pass rush through coverage sacks. It's just my opinion based on the extra depth in the secondary. After he signed Green, I was racking my brain, trying to figure out why? If there are no pass rushers available in the FA, why not try a different approach? Not saying that Sing is not trying to improve the so called pass rushers we have, but this may work for the time being until we're able to capitalize on next year's very strong draft.

I think he's putting his finger in the dike until next draft.

What do you guys think? Can it work? Will it help?


Dude.... if Green could cover someone, Arizona and now Miami would never have cut his silly butt.
Originally posted by alanbeez22:
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
....It's pretty obvious to me, and I'm sure to many of you here that Sing is trying to improve our pass rush through coverage sacks. It's just my opinion based on the extra depth in the secondary. After he signed Green, I was racking my brain, trying to figure out why? If there are no pass rushers available in the FA, why not try a different approach? Not saying that Sing is not trying to improve the so called pass rushers we have, but this may work for the time being until we're able to capitalize on next year's very strong draft.

I think he's putting his finger in the dike until next draft.

What do you guys think? Can it work? Will it help?


this is a good and valid point of view. i agree that picking up another cb would probably help with coverage sacks. but what would help with getting more sacks and interceptions is getting a person in that can actually get SACKS! if we got a pass rusher i believe that interceptions would definately be up not only by our secondary but also our linebackers. pressure from the front puts more strain on the qb's ability to make a correct throw. having more coverage just puts more pressure on a qb to throw a pass that he usually doesn't make! i dunno about you but i would have rather have help from the D-Line

I agree with you and NCommand. This was something that has been on my mind and I wanted to see what Zoners thought about it. Perhaps when our blitz packages are revealed in the regular season, we'll be pleasantly surprised. That's my hope at least.
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
....It's pretty obvious to me, and I'm sure to many of you here that Sing is trying to improve our pass rush through coverage sacks. It's just my opinion based on the extra depth in the secondary. After he signed Green, I was racking my brain, trying to figure out why? If there are no pass rushers available in the FA, why not try a different approach? Not saying that Sing is not trying to improve the so called pass rushers we have, but this may work for the time being until we're able to capitalize on next year's very strong draft.

I think he's putting his finger in the dike until next draft.

What do you guys think? Can it work? Will it help?


Dude.... if Green could cover someone, Arizona and now Miami would never have cut his silly butt.

Just to be fair, Arizona didn't cut him, he left as an UFA.
Originally posted by Sinsation:
we signed Eric Green because he is a quality Cb. this guy was a starter a yr ago, and yes even tho he wasnt doing great in Miami, he WAS competing for the 2nd Cb spot. He is,at the very least, a nickel corner and will be an asset to have on the field. Who knows if spencer can play injury free and i'm not sold on brown or hudson. Quality depth is important too.

You nailed it. He gives us more depth and he also gives us the kind of experience that Strickland did. I agree with your concern over Spencer too.
I would love to see our guys winning more one on one battles on pass rush no doubt about it. I do think when that vanilla curtain comes down Manusky will improve the pressure on the QB's to a certain degree. I just don't feel comfortable that that improvement will be great enough , we should have addressed our pass rush need ------ it's something that a lot us fans have been calling for for years now.
[ Edited by 49ERwhiner on Aug 20, 2009 at 12:47 PM ]
Originally posted by alanbeez22:
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
....It's pretty obvious to me, and I'm sure to many of you here that Sing is trying to improve our pass rush through coverage sacks. It's just my opinion based on the extra depth in the secondary. After he signed Green, I was racking my brain, trying to figure out why? If there are no pass rushers available in the FA, why not try a different approach? Not saying that Sing is not trying to improve the so called pass rushers we have, but this may work for the time being until we're able to capitalize on next year's very strong draft.

I think he's putting his finger in the dike until next draft.

What do you guys think? Can it work? Will it help?


this is a good and valid point of view. i agree that picking up another cb would probably help with coverage sacks. but what would help with getting more sacks and interceptions is getting a person in that can actually get SACKS! if we got a pass rusher i believe that interceptions would definately be up not only by our secondary but also our linebackers. pressure from the front puts more strain on the qb's ability to make a correct throw. having more coverage just puts more pressure on a qb to throw a pass that he usually doesn't make! i dunno about you but i would have rather have help from the D-Line

I don’t buy it.

Unless you have 3 or 4 Deion Sanders in your secondary, WRs WILL get open. Sure with a great secondary you may get a few coverage sacks, but it will not turn your team into a bunch of sack masters.

In 1994 the 49ers had one of the best secondary in the history of the NFL (Merton Hanks, Tim McDonald, Eric Davis, Deion Sanders) and a crappy pass rush. How many sacks did that secondary “produce,” 38. I know it’s just one year but, if I looked at more teams, I believe it would the stats would support my conclusion.
I look at the siging as a better version of Donald Strickland (who by the way is currently hurt for the Jets). Depth is a good thing....

Nate Clements
Dre Bly
Tarell Brown
Shantae Spencer
Eric Green
Marcus Hudson (may be odd man out)
Originally posted by 49ERwhiner:
Originally posted by Sinsation:
we signed Eric Green because he is a quality Cb. this guy was a starter a yr ago, and yes even tho he wasnt doing great in Miami, he WAS competing for the 2nd Cb spot. He is,at the very least, a nickel corner and will be an asset to have on the field. Who knows if spencer can play injury free and i'm not sold on brown or hudson. Quality depth is important too.

You nailed it. He gives us more depth and he also gives us the kind of experience that Strickland did. I agree with your concern over Spencer too.
I would love to see our guys winning more one on one battles no doubt about it. I do think when that vanilla curtain comes down Manusky will improve the pressure on the QB's to a certain degree. I just don't feel comfortable that that improvement will be great enough , we should have addressed our pass rush need ------ it's something that a lot us fans have been calling for for years now.


So true. We'll just have to wait and see, again.
Originally posted by jta854:
Originally posted by alanbeez22:
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
....It's pretty obvious to me, and I'm sure to many of you here that Sing is trying to improve our pass rush through coverage sacks. It's just my opinion based on the extra depth in the secondary. After he signed Green, I was racking my brain, trying to figure out why? If there are no pass rushers available in the FA, why not try a different approach? Not saying that Sing is not trying to improve the so called pass rushers we have, but this may work for the time being until we're able to capitalize on next year's very strong draft.

I think he's putting his finger in the dike until next draft.

What do you guys think? Can it work? Will it help?


this is a good and valid point of view. i agree that picking up another cb would probably help with coverage sacks. but what would help with getting more sacks and interceptions is getting a person in that can actually get SACKS! if we got a pass rusher i believe that interceptions would definately be up not only by our secondary but also our linebackers. pressure from the front puts more strain on the qb's ability to make a correct throw. having more coverage just puts more pressure on a qb to throw a pass that he usually doesn't make! i dunno about you but i would have rather have help from the D-Line

I don’t buy it.

Unless you have 3 or 4 Deion Sanders in your secondary, WRs WILL get open. Sure with a great secondary you may get a few coverage sacks, but it will not turn your team into a bunch of sack masters.

In 1994 the 49ers had one of the best secondary in the history of the NFL (Merton Hanks, Tim McDonald, Eric Davis, Deion Sanders) and a crappy pass rush. How many sacks did that secondary “produce,” 38. I know it’s just one year but, if I looked at more teams, I believe it would the stats would support my conclusion.

i don't think you read my whole paragraph...
^^^^^^^^^
alanbeez22, My bad. I'm not sure why I quoted you. My comment was directed at the original post.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 49er4life:
I think a lot of people forget that during the preseason it is very common not to show your blitz packages!

If you show them during the preseason you give your regular season opponents the upper hand early. This is one of the reason Nolan is an idiot, throwing all of his blitz packages at us in the first game is only going to hurt them in the regular season.

While I agree that pre-season is a time to work on certain aspects of coverages, packages, etc. let's be clear that Singletary was NOT happy with our non-existent pass rush. No matter how vanilla the scheme is, our men should still be beating their men with one-on-one battles. Period.

We are NOT a dominant 3-4 or 4-6 defense that has played together for years and will be adding some new wrinkles and we don't want to show-our-hand, so to speak. I just don't buy this theory at all. We are a 7-9 team that desperately needs to improve a pass rush that has not existed for over 6 years now and we need to be working on it every chance we get.

And case-in-point, it doesn't MATTER if the rest of the league does see your hand if you are a good defense b/c there won't be anything they can do about it. It's no different then when a defense KNOWS you're a dominant power running team and still, there is nothing they can do to stop it. Our first pre-season game, we clearly tried to establish a dominant running game with Coffee...should we not have done that for fear of showing our hand in the regular season? I don't think so!

In MM's blogs, he has stated that we have been blitzing heavily in practice, and yet we did not in the first preseason game. Wouldn't this lead you to believe that we might not be showing everything we got? Also blitz packages are generaly installed as apart of pre game planning for a specific oppenent and film study, two things that don't happen against most teams in preseason. You state that "We are NOT a dominant 3-4 or 4-6 defense", which is more reason why we do not need to throw everything at our opponents or give up our hand this early in the preseason.

As for you comparison of a power running game to blitzing, it makes no sense. When it comes to our offense, teams know we are going to run the ball, and that it will most likely be between the tackles considering the type of runners we have. These are thing we can not hide, therefor need to show to be affective so that teams will fear the run and open up the passing game. Offense and defense require two completely different strategies, if you do not understand this any argument is a complete wast of time...