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Does anybody believe that our pass rush is any better?

Originally posted by NCommand:
It could conceivably be WORSE this year and here is why:
1. Both Manny & Haralson will be taking EVERY snap this season (expect them to wear down as the season progresses) and who is playing behind them? Brooks?
4. Injuries are almost inevitable and I'd expect at least one involving the front 7 where we have very little depth at the OLB and a rookie at ILB

Uh oh! Hope Haralson is OK. Now you see why I picked Brooks as my surprise player this year.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NCommand:
It could conceivably be WORSE this year and here is why:
1. Both Manny & Haralson will be taking EVERY snap this season (expect them to wear down as the season progresses) and who is playing behind them? Brooks?
4. Injuries are almost inevitable and I'd expect at least one involving the front 7 where we have very little depth at the OLB and a rookie at ILB

Uh oh! Hope Haralson is OK. Now you see why I picked Brooks as my surprise player this year.

Even with all the baggage, the kid does have talent. I agree that he could be a very pleasant surprise.

I know that it’s just training camp, but is encouraging to hear that our LB’s are getting to the quarterback. It’s always bitter sweet when it’s being done against our own offensive line, but it’s better than nothing.
Originally posted by jta854:
I know that it’s just training camp, but is encouraging to hear that our LB’s are getting to the quarterback. It’s always bitter sweet when it’s being done against our own offensive line, but it’s better than nothing.

I agree with your bitter sweet outlook , we need the improvement at pass rush.

[ Edited by 49ERGUY on Aug 4, 2009 at 07:21:38 ]
It is encouraging that Manny Lawson has enough strength to win most of the contests with VD in the Nutcracker. That shows some strength improvement in Lawson. There have also been reports of Lawson getting to the QB as well. This bodes well in reference to strength and speed. Brooks and Harris have shown some moves, strength, and speed also. Now all we need is Haralson to get well, all to stay healthy and all to prove effectiveness during actual games. Hope springs eternal.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
It is encouraging that Manny Lawson has enough strength to win most of the contests with VD in the Nutcracker. That shows some strength improvement in Lawson. There have also been reports of Lawson getting to the QB as well. This bodes well in reference to strength and speed. Brooks and Harris have shown some moves, strength, and speed also. Now all we need is Haralson to get well, all to stay healthy and all to prove effectiveness during actual games. Hope springs eternal.

Hopefully they all stay healthy and continue to improve to a point where they can dominate ------ Hope does spring eternal.
This is a complicated question. A team can return the exact same players the next season and improve depending on which offensive lineman of opposing teams stay, retire, get old, injured or whatever. Not to mention that the same players may improve with experience from the previous season.

I am going to narrow my focus on the NFC West and how this years niners will do.

The rams did little to upgrade their pass rush. Last years team had three guys provide the pass rush for them and two of them will be approaching their mid thirties this season. I see the rams degrading this year.

The seahawks will loose some production from the loss of Peterson but they will try to use Curry in a similar fashion. Kerney will continue to produce for them as long as he stays healthy. In the end the sea hawks will continue to put some numbers up because they are aggressive and they still have some players who can get it done.

The cards have DT's, DE's and LB's that can get to the QB even with the loss of Laboy. Warner will put numbers up again this year so the d can get some more sacks.

The niners have a chance to lead the NFC west in sacks, QB pressures, or whatever else you want to judge a pass rush. Smith will have another productive year. I expect Haralson to have similar if not a little better season this year compared to last. I am not convinced that Lawson will be a big pass rush guy but he is still a question mark. What makes me think the niners will put up better numbers this season compared to last is the couple of additions they made and familiarity of the scheme that started to produce under Greg M.

I got a feeling the niners will be at the top of the NFC west in pass rush stats next year.
Originally posted by fister30:
The niners have a chance to lead the NFC west in sacks, QB pressures, or whatever else you want to judge a pass rush. Smith will have another productive year. I expect Haralson to have similar if not a little better season this year compared to last. I am not convinced that Lawson will be a big pass rush guy but he is still a question mark. What makes me think the niners will put up better numbers this season compared to last is the couple of additions they made and familiarity of the scheme that started to produce under Greg M.

I got a feeling the niners will be at the top of the NFC west in pass rush stats next year.

Good post but what "pass rush" additons are you talking about? Continuity always helps unless it's a predictable vanilla defense. It just means they are better at sucking. LOL
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by fister30:
The niners have a chance to lead the NFC west in sacks, QB pressures, or whatever else you want to judge a pass rush. Smith will have another productive year. I expect Haralson to have similar if not a little better season this year compared to last. I am not convinced that Lawson will be a big pass rush guy but he is still a question mark. What makes me think the niners will put up better numbers this season compared to last is the couple of additions they made and familiarity of the scheme that started to produce under Greg M.

I got a feeling the niners will be at the top of the NFC west in pass rush stats next year.

Good post but what "pass rush" additons are you talking about? Continuity always helps unless it's a predictable vanilla defense. It just means they are better at sucking. LOL

Marques Harris? Switching Brooks to OLB? Jay Moore off the IR?

All "additions" my friend.

Seriously, I don't recall as many reports about the pass rush in TC in the past as we're hearing about this year, so far. Seems like there's a renewed emphasis on it, even if we didn't draft a pass rusher.

Nolan was downright dismissive of the pass rush and his schemes showed it.

We saw a little taste of the change in schemes, under Manusky, after Nolan was shown the door, but I've got to think we're going to see an even bigger change this year.

No more vanilla!! I hope.
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by fister30:
The niners have a chance to lead the NFC west in sacks, QB pressures, or whatever else you want to judge a pass rush. Smith will have another productive year. I expect Haralson to have similar if not a little better season this year compared to last. I am not convinced that Lawson will be a big pass rush guy but he is still a question mark. What makes me think the niners will put up better numbers this season compared to last is the couple of additions they made and familiarity of the scheme that started to produce under Greg M.

I got a feeling the niners will be at the top of the NFC west in pass rush stats next year.

Good post but what "pass rush" additons are you talking about? Continuity always helps unless it's a predictable vanilla defense. It just means they are better at sucking. LOL

Marques Harris? Switching Brooks to OLB? Jay Moore off the IR?

All "additions" my friend.

Seriously, I don't recall as many reports about the pass rush in TC in the past as we're hearing about this year, so far. Seems like there's a renewed emphasis on it, even if we didn't draft a pass rusher.

Nolan was downright dismissive of the pass rush and his schemes showed it.

We saw a little taste of the change in schemes, under Manusky, after Nolan was shown the door, but I've got to think we're going to see an even bigger change this year.

No more vanilla!! I hope.

LOL. You may be one of the few who consider Jay Moore, Harris & Brooks as "additions" my friend esp. given none of them are considered starters even on our team. And are they really additions over Green & TBC? That said though, I have a feeling Brooks may end up being a starter at some point if either Manny/Haralson don't pan out or d/t injury.

But you couldn't be more right about Nolan though Singletary hasn't addressed it either, personnel-wise. So we are what we are and I do see what you see in that we're at least focusing on it this year, defining roles for players and asking them to utilize fundamentals and the skill-set they have to provide a pass rush and that alone, barring injuries, should mean we'll improve at least a little bit.

I hope you're sooooooo right about the vanilla no mas defense and that Manusky let's it rip (finally). Scheme, to me, is just as crucial as the pieces we need to run it properly. I like Manusky and I think he comes with that San Diego mindset but will Singletary hold him back like Nolan did when the games count? I sure hope not!
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by fister30:
The niners have a chance to lead the NFC west in sacks, QB pressures, or whatever else you want to judge a pass rush. Smith will have another productive year. I expect Haralson to have similar if not a little better season this year compared to last. I am not convinced that Lawson will be a big pass rush guy but he is still a question mark. What makes me think the niners will put up better numbers this season compared to last is the couple of additions they made and familiarity of the scheme that started to produce under Greg M.

I got a feeling the niners will be at the top of the NFC west in pass rush stats next year.

Good post but what "pass rush" additons are you talking about? Continuity always helps unless it's a predictable vanilla defense. It just means they are better at sucking. LOL

Marques Harris? Switching Brooks to OLB? Jay Moore off the IR?

All "additions" my friend.

Seriously, I don't recall as many reports about the pass rush in TC in the past as we're hearing about this year, so far. Seems like there's a renewed emphasis on it, even if we didn't draft a pass rusher.

Nolan was downright dismissive of the pass rush and his schemes showed it.

We saw a little taste of the change in schemes, under Manusky, after Nolan was shown the door, but I've got to think we're going to see an even bigger change this year.

No more vanilla!! I hope.

I like the additions of Evans and Harris/brooks. Harris/Brooks is the same animal in regards to the pass rush. Somebody will come out of that. The addition of Evans gives the niners another presence at the DE spot. Evans/Balmer/soap and Harris/Brooks/Lawson. I noticed that Gregg M likes to blitz the safety in some situations and I have a feeling DG will out perform Roman in those situations.

My money is on Harris to step up. Harris is an over achiever while brooks has been an under achiever for most of his career.
Originally posted by fister30:
I like the additions of Evans and Harris/brooks. Harris/Brooks is the same animal in regards to the pass rush. Somebody will come out of that. The addition of Evans gives the niners another presence at the DE spot. Evans/Balmer/soap and Harris/Brooks/Lawson. I noticed that Gregg M likes to blitz the safety in some situations and I have a feeling DG will out perform Roman in those situations.

My money is on Harris to step up. Harris is an over achiever while brooks has been an under achiever for most of his career.

True, Harris/Brooks/Evans all add some depth but both Harris & Evans (esp. Harris) are undersized for their positions and will only be used in spot duty though both add veteran leadership and are solid players. But let's not act like we've "added" anything b/c we've subtracted Green/TBC and are these two going to add more sacks for the team? I highly doubt it.

Brooks, to me, is the wild card b/c if we continue our injury streak or Lawson/Haralson wear down playing every down or are relatively ineffective, I can see Manusky going with a more prototypical Brooks at the WILL and I have a feeling he will fair well there esp. now that he's found a home and mentor under Singletary.

So, do I think we've improved the pass rush? I think we'll get a few more this year but probably not a whole lot more. But even that said, I see that we DO have some potential but everything will have to be just right in order for that to happen b/c we have not added any starters at key positions and are cashing all are chips in the hopes of Lawson/Haralson and a solid rotation along the d-line.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by fister30:
I like the additions of Evans and Harris/brooks. Harris/Brooks is the same animal in regards to the pass rush. Somebody will come out of that. The addition of Evans gives the niners another presence at the DE spot. Evans/Balmer/soap and Harris/Brooks/Lawson. I noticed that Gregg M likes to blitz the safety in some situations and I have a feeling DG will out perform Roman in those situations.

My money is on Harris to step up. Harris is an over achiever while brooks has been an under achiever for most of his career.

True, Harris/Brooks/Evans all add some depth but both Harris & Evans (esp. Harris) are undersized for their positions and will only be used in spot duty though both add veteran leadership and are solid players. But let's not act like we've "added" anything b/c we've subtracted Green/TBC and are these two going to add more sacks for the team? I highly doubt it.

Brooks, to me, is the wild card b/c if we continue our injury streak or Lawson/Haralson wear down playing every down or are relatively ineffective, I can see Manusky going with a more prototypical Brooks at the WILL and I have a feeling he will fair well there esp. now that he's found a home and mentor under Singletary.

So, do I think we've improved the pass rush? I think we'll get a few more this year but probably not a whole lot more. But even that said, I see that we DO have some potential but everything will have to be just right in order for that to happen b/c we have not added any starters at key positions and are cashing all are chips in the hopes of Lawson/Haralson and a solid rotation along the d-line.

Very good points, and well thought out.

Here's my take:

I could see Manusky trying to use Lawson the way he used Merriman in San Diego. Manny isn't quite as powerful, but he's faster and taller. Moving him around and turning him loose ala Lightsout might be an interesting and productive move.

Harris is too small to be an every down OLB in a 3-4. I see him as a pass rush specialist in obvious passing situations only.

Evans may have put on some weight and may be an effective DE. He's listed at 275, but said something about being nearly 300 lbs recently. He seems to be holding his own against some of the OL in the nutcracker drills.

I agree with you, Brooks truly is the wild card. He's got the size that Harris lacks, and could be an every down OLB. I think he gets significantly more playing time this year, whether its behind Lawson and Haralson as a frequent sub, or in the place of one of them if they're out w/ injury. He just needs to keep his head screwed on straight.

Altho I am concerned with the lack of depth (really across the entire front five, without MacDonald, with RJF out, with Balmer gimpy, with Haralson hurt), I see a jump in sacks this year. Primarily because of a change in attitude from Nolan's "no pressure, hold your ground, no pass rush" philosophy.

Manusky's much more aggressive approach, plus a simplified 3-4 scheme that turns the players loose to use their athletic abilities, adds up to greater sack production. At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
though i admit that it's hard to believe, but the niners actually fielded the nfl's thirteenth best defense last season. and it's not that they played well every single game. they played very well after nolan was gone, singletary let manusky loose and gave manny back his starting job, and all of a sudden haralson produced some pass-rush.

as was said before, this team has done nothing to add a true pass-rushing threat this offseason. but really, if you were singletary and thought manny and parys were your guys to combine for 20+ sacks this season, would you? now don't get me wrong, i'm not sold on singletary's illusions, far from it, but i do understand his way of thinking (at least i believe that). as it was reported multiple times by now, singletary takes special interest in brooks, and i really don't think he would, if there was nothing special about him. singletary thinks this team is set in that regard.

it was also pointed out that nolan liked to change a player's assignments from game to game and even change their position on numerous occasions, which was holding back their development and finally ruined some carreers. that's not happening anymore. singletary thinks if you're good at something it doesn't matter that others know what you'll be doing, because they can't stop you anyway. that philosophy becomes evident in his "nutcracker" drills. at least the guy does what he preaches, and the players respond to it and actually learn something. i'm not sure that nolan's practices were actually teaching guys the basics and technique (derek smith school of tackling).^^

though i don't think that lawson and haralson will come close to a combined 20 sacks, i'm pretty sure the pass-rush will be better, because of simplicity's sake. the player's know what to do, the player's learn how to do it and manusky can call his own game.
Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by rigs49:
Can anyone honestly say that we have upgraded since last year? I mean what was done this off season to fix the pass rush?

Added Pass-rush specialist Al Harris, Marques Harris (rush LB from San Diego). Settled in at a 3-4 defense (no more Big sub), simplified to a one-gap and no more gap control. Got rid of Tully Banta-Cain and Roderick Green, and made Haralson the full time starter.

Doesn't look like much, but believe it or not, those are improvements. Were you expecting Brian Orakpo, Everette Brown or trading for Terrell Suggs or Julius Peppers....I was (to be honest).

Even if we had drafted a rookie passrusher. They weren't going to make much of an impact.

Gholston, Groves anybody?

-9fA

For every Gholston and Groves, there's a Merriman, Wimbley, Ware, Kearse and a Charles Haley.

True but I do believe (i don't have stats) that most passrushers have mediocre beginnings to the NFL before they finally mature onto the scene.

What i'm trying to say is that 1 draft pick would not have necessarily turned our pass rush woes around THIS year.

-9fA

Exactly, how u start doesnt mean sh*t, Its how u finish that matters....
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