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Does anybody believe that our pass rush is any better?

  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by ruthless49er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
Originally posted by PA9erFaithful:
Well, we were middle of the pack in sacks last year (tied for 16th with three other teams with 30 sacks) so there is definitely room for improvement. That said, I still think that one of our first round picks next year will be spent on a blue chip pass rusher.

I think our pass rush is about the same as last year. I certainly hope I'm wrong.

How many of those were after Mike took over?

17

with 7 of those coming against the rams. 3 more versus the Bills. 10 sacks in 3 games versus teams in the top 10 in sacks allowed.

Which leaves 7 sacks for the other 6 games. So unless we play teams with horrible O-lines..............

I think Kriz is saying that Coaching can take you jusst so far. If the talent isnt there, theres no point. Trying to light a fire under guys like TBC and Green wasnt exactly gonna make them great pass rushers. So far as what most people have seen Manny hasnt exactly jumped out with his uber pass rush skills. Yeh sure limited opportunities but Parys did somthing with his limited opportunities so did Gore in 05 etc.

You guys do understand Manny is just being handed the job. He hasnt exactly beat anyone out for it...well fr the sole reason theres noone worth it on our roster. Thats most of these poster's beef. We havent upgraded our roster. Just a coaching staff isnt going to do much.

What have we done to improve it?

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:


Do you put any stock in players improving or maturing or the concept of talented players living up to their potential due to better coaching? That's worth something, IMO.

I agree. There are any number of "underachievers" on this team; players who have great potential and desire, but who have not sufficiently developed due to the lack of coaching--both as to the basics and as to the schemes utilized on offense and defense. (And don't those things really go hand in hand?)

What surprised me, and continues to excite me most about what Singletary appears to have done, so far, is his attention to and emphasis on the players already on the team. No "big name" signings, just back to the basics.

Singletary's emphasis on working hard in practice, practicing with greater focus and concentration, along with superior physical conditioning, is a huge change from the way Nolan ran things. It should pay off with better performance on the field on game days, meaning: fewer penalties, better execution, better blocking and tackling, greater levels of energy late in games. That could mean a few more wins, IMHO, and these improvements would be due simply to better coaching.

If, along with these basic improvements, some of the "underachievers" find themselves in positions where they can excel, and gain some real confidence in their abilities, then who knows, perhaps some "miracle" improvements could occur. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to occur, but it wouldn't upset or displease me if it does.

I do believe that some of the emphasis on Singletary's skill as a motivational speaker is overblown. No question, he's capable of delivering a fiery speech and getting the team pumped up. But he, himself, has said its really more about what is done, and not about what is said.

"Don't tell me, show me" is the team motto this year. So its not about "motivation;" its about performance. And Singletary appears to be as determined to improve the team's performance with good coaching, as he is in "motivating" anyone. IMHO.

It should really be interesting and exciting to see how this team actually performs during games. It would not be a miracle to see that they are greatly improved. IMHO.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
What have we done to improve it?






Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
What have we done to improve it?







I agree we haven't done anything at all. The pass rush has sucked for years and it will suck this year too.

This is a team that has no pass rush and no QB and people think we are better...

I understand being a fan and hoping for the best but...

This team is going to do nothing but lose, lose some more and get a high draft pick. We haven't built anything in what 6 years of rebuilding?
No.
Originally posted by Norcal9erfan:
No.

This.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
This team had a chance to upgrade the pass rush, and failed miserably in this draft. We will all look back at some point, scratch our heads, and ask why we didn't draft Lawrence Sidbury, who is off to a super start for the Falcons. I graded him as a mid-third rounder.

Adding Evans will help, and having a more aggressive scheme will help. However, we need to free Manny to a Tampa 2 team that needs a quick backer and pick up another pass rusher who can get after the QB. It is simply not Manny's strength.

Here has been my problem with our defense for about 4 years now: Which two players are most critical in a 3-4 defense? The NT and Will backer. The Niners have never seriously addressed these issues, and that has always held our defense back. The only time we attempted to fill these roles was with Manny at Will, and that experiment bombed.

Since the Niners refuse to fill these positions with top level talent, I continue to advocate that they abandon the 3-4, and play a 4-3. This will maximize Manny and Patrick's talent.

Why do you think that Manny would be better in a 4-3, Tampa 2? He has never played in that system before. People think he is "great" in pass coverage, but I don't agree with that statement. Even worse is the fact that we have nobody to man the other OLB spot. Parys is NOT a 4-3 OLB. Neither is Spikes. Our DL might better be served, but our LB corps takes a big hit.

We need to give the system, and the players within it a full season to see what they can do. Let's judge results after the fact instead of hypothesizing.

We have been hypothesizing for 4 years already. How many more years are necessary to realize that we do not have the personnel to make a dynamic 3-4 defense because we neglect to pick up a serious pass-rushing threat.

As for Manny in the Tampa-2, this is the perfect scheme for him. Manny needs to play off the LOS and run in space. Teams would love to use his speed and ability to cover TE's on the field.

You are right that Spikes is not a 4-3 backer. Fine, he's probably retired at the end of this year, and is on the downside of his career. We are not going to build the defense around him.

Parys has played the 4-3 position for our team in that defensive scheme. Now, might not be best in a base 4-3, so it could be that the DE position is best for him. However, once again, we are not going to build our defense around Haralson.

Manny clearly best his best NFL ball when the Niners flipped him from the Will to the Sam in 2006 and after the Niners switched to the 4-3 defense.

I agree, but I think you would have been better off saying that "we have been experimenting for 4 years already" on the defensive side. And even that's not entirely correct; more like 3 and one half years.

When Singletary took over last year, he ended Nolan's "experimental, hybrid" bs defense, and went with a straight 3-4. You'd have to agree that the team played better on defense once that change was made, irrespective of the strength or weakness of the schedule at the time.

Does that mean that its now a perfect 3-4? Clearly not. But Singletary's only had half a season and one draft to try to address the many problems he still faces as HC, including the personnel deficiencies in the 3-4 defense. Specifically the OLB and NT issues that you correctly identify.

At least, however, sticking to the 3-4 will allow the coaching staff to evaluate more fully the personnel problems that still exist and address them at some point. Under Nolan's "hybrid" system, he seemed to spend all his time trying to scheme ways to disguise the problems, rather than recognizing and addressing them.

And you're correct, Manny played his best in 2006, when he went to the SAM and Nolan switched to the 4-3. But how much of that was due to the fact that he was given a well defined role, for once, and allowed to utilize his physical talents? He has subsequently matured, and will now be given a similar role, and opportunity, in a 3-4. Perhaps he will, once more, excel.

If not, now's the time to find out. Manny must have shown something the coachs like, however, or one would have expected some offseason move to shore up a questionable OLB corps.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
What have we done to improve it?







I agree we haven't done anything at all. The pass rush has sucked for years and it will suck this year too.

This is a team that has no pass rush and no QB and people think we are better...

I understand being a fan and hoping for the best but...

This team is going to do nothing but lose, lose some more and get a high draft pick. We haven't built anything in what 6 years of rebuilding?

Well I wouldn't say we haven't built anything. We look ok in alot of areas. It just so happens that those areas aren't the most important ones. QB, OL and Pass rush. Unfortunately by the time we get players to fill these needs. We'll have holes in other areas.

I can't believe it's been what 5 off seasons and this 3-4 defense still hasn't found a capable rotation at the OLB positions.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
What have we done to improve it?







I agree we haven't done anything at all. The pass rush has sucked for years and it will suck this year too.

This is a team that has no pass rush and no QB and people think we are better...

I understand being a fan and hoping for the best but...

This team is going to do nothing but lose, lose some more and get a high draft pick. We haven't built anything in what 6 years of rebuilding?

Well I wouldn't say we haven't built anything. We look ok in alot of areas. It just so happens that those areas aren't the most important ones. QB, OL and Pass rush. Unfortunately by the time we get players to fill these needs. We'll have holes in other areas.

I can't believe it's been what 5 off seasons and this 3-4 defense still hasn't found a capable rotation at the OLB positions.

I agree they have built some things and you could make an argument that the overall talent is actually better than say 4, 5, or 6 years ago.

BUT the most important positions on a football team are the QB, pass rush and Oline. That's our downfall in the biggest way.

I agree I can't believe we have been looking for a good OLB rotation for half a decade and we haven't found anything.

[ Edited by SanDiego49er on Jul 31, 2009 at 13:40:16 ]
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
What have we done to improve it?







I agree we haven't done anything at all. The pass rush has sucked for years and it will suck this year too.

This is a team that has no pass rush and no QB and people think we are better...

I understand being a fan and hoping for the best but...

This team is going to do nothing but lose, lose some more and get a high draft pick. We haven't built anything in what 6 years of rebuilding?

Well I wouldn't say we haven't built anything. We look ok in alot of areas. It just so happens that those areas aren't the most important ones. QB, OL and Pass rush. Unfortunately by the time we get players to fill these needs. We'll have holes in other areas.

I can't believe it's been what 5 off seasons and this 3-4 defense still hasn't found a capable rotation at the OLB positions.

Rumor has it (meaning I just made this up as a joke) that Nolan called Singletary the other day and suggested moving Vernon Davis from TE to OLB. Said it came to him in a dream and that he's certain its the miraculous, experimental move that will change everything.

Waddaya think? Manny at the SAM and Vernon at the WILL. We could call them the "Bookends of Bad" or some such catchy nickname. On the other hand, you may wish to call them something else.

[ Edited by oldninerdude on Jul 31, 2009 at 13:47:48 ]
I'll post it for you:
Originally posted by krizay:

  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
What have we done to improve it?







I agree we haven't done anything at all. The pass rush has sucked for years and it will suck this year too.

This is a team that has no pass rush and no QB and people think we are better...

I understand being a fan and hoping for the best but...

This team is going to do nothing but lose, lose some more and get a high draft pick. We haven't built anything in what 6 years of rebuilding?

Well I wouldn't say we haven't built anything. We look ok in alot of areas. It just so happens that those areas aren't the most important ones. QB, OL and Pass rush. Unfortunately by the time we get players to fill these needs. We'll have holes in other areas.

I can't believe it's been what 5 off seasons and this 3-4 defense still hasn't found a capable rotation at the OLB positions.

Rumor has it (meaning I just made this up as a joke) that Nolan called Singletary the other day and suggested moving Vernon Davis from TE to OLB. Said it came to him in a dream and that he's certain its the miraculous, experimental move that will change everything.

Waddaya think? Manny at the SAM and Vernon at the WILL. We could call them the "Bookends of Bad" or some such catchy nickname. On the other hand, you may wish to call them something else.



I'm sorry, but just reading catchy & hands made me chuckle!
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
I'll post it for you:
Originally posted by krizay:


Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
What have we done to improve it?







I agree we haven't done anything at all. The pass rush has sucked for years and it will suck this year too.

This is a team that has no pass rush and no QB and people think we are better...

I understand being a fan and hoping for the best but...

This team is going to do nothing but lose, lose some more and get a high draft pick. We haven't built anything in what 6 years of rebuilding?

Well I wouldn't say we haven't built anything. We look ok in alot of areas. It just so happens that those areas aren't the most important ones. QB, OL and Pass rush. Unfortunately by the time we get players to fill these needs. We'll have holes in other areas.

I can't believe it's been what 5 off seasons and this 3-4 defense still hasn't found a capable rotation at the OLB positions.

Rumor has it (meaning I just made this up as a joke) that Nolan called Singletary the other day and suggested moving Vernon Davis from TE to OLB. Said it came to him in a dream and that he's certain its the miraculous, experimental move that will change everything.

Waddaya think? Manny at the SAM and Vernon at the WILL. We could call them the "Bookends of Bad" or some such catchy nickname. On the other hand, you may wish to call them something else.



I'm sorry, but just reading catchy & hands made me chuckle!